Michael Jordan RC, PSA 10, shatters 100k !!! - Page 163

k13 · 08-08-2021, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ohio_mba

Given that Jordan RCs are so easily counterfeited these days you would think that a PSA 8 would fetch a premium. At least a card graded in that range you would know is real.

You still would not know for sure...

Pat3ntP3nd1ng · 08-08-2021, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GOATcards

Repeating for the 2nd time, it's a PWCC-S

Are you saying that because of this it’s valid to place a $600,000 premium over the norm on it?

rats60 · 08-08-2021, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GOATcards

Repeating for the 2nd time, it's a PWCC-S

It is PWCC. Any of their "sales" should be ignored.

duron · 08-08-2021, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GOATcards

Repeating for the 2nd time, it's a PWCC-S

C’mon man, lol.

KhalDrogo · 08-08-2021, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duron

C’mon man, lol.

That is the answer though. The market has spoken. Stickers matter. Even when you can see with your own eyes that the eye appeal is great. It's stupid, but there's no denying it.

duron · 08-08-2021, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

That is the answer though. The market has spoken. Stickers matter. Even when you can see with your own eyes that the eye appeal is great. It's stupid, but there's no denying it.

I know, but it’s being said as if it’s not stupid. That’s the impression I get, at least.

I’m not a finance or market guy but I guess markets get dumber as they grow.

GOATcards · 08-08-2021, 03:46 PM

I'm guessing a PWCC-S is rare enough to compare with a non-black-label BGS 10 (there are 6 or so of these), and weren't they talking a few pages back about those being somewhere in the area of $1M if they came up for sale?

bberns · 08-08-2021, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

That is the answer though. The market has spoken. Stickers matter. Even when you can see with your own eyes that the eye appeal is great. It's stupid, but there's no denying it.

Not sure that two people make a "market".

KhalDrogo · 08-08-2021, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bberns

Not sure that two people make a "market".

Sure. If you want to ignore the thousands of other sales of different cards with stickers on them.

JWBlue · 08-08-2021, 04:51 PM

How many MJ RC PSA 10 have that PWCC sticker?

If it is one or two the sale is legit.

r338 · 08-08-2021, 04:55 PM

Goldin should make their own stickers for cards with good eye appeal. Heritage should make their own stickers too.

duron · 08-08-2021, 05:54 PM

I just want to know why so many won't entertain the idea of such a silly sticker/designation being used deceptively. The card's flaws have already been mentioned.

2010GBPackers · 08-08-2021, 06:17 PM

Yeah, the $800k sale was an eye-opener vs. other recent 57 Jordan sales, but if you look at the trends across vintage RC's, an "S" sticker typically brings 2-2.5x a similarly graded card. I feel the price was way too high, but there's historical evidence that an absolute blazer of a card for the grade will bring much, much more than an average card for the grade.

What's weird to me is that those doubting the sale (and I can understand the skepticism) probably wouldn't blink an eye if a Black Label did $1M. It's really the same principal, though, people pay more for what people see as the best of the best.

sh403 · 08-08-2021, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2010GBPackers

Yeah, the $800k sale was an eye-opener vs. other recent 57 Jordan sales, but if you look at the trends across vintage RC's, an "S" sticker typically brings 2-2.5x a similarly graded card. I feel the price was way too high, but there's historical evidence that an absolute blazer of a card for the grade will bring much, much more than an average card for the grade.

What's weird to me is that those doubting the sale (and I can understand the skepticism) probably wouldn't blink an eye if a Black Label did $1M. It's really the same principal, though, people pay more for what people see as the best of the best.

A black label is put in the holder by BGS, a presumably neutral third party grading company. A PWCC-S sticker is put on the holder by the company that was consigned to sell the card and stands to make a percentage of the sale price, which is the opposite of a neutral third party

KhalDrogo · 08-08-2021, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sh403

A black label is put in the holder by BGS, a presumably neutral third party grading company. A PWCC-S sticker is put on the holder by the company that was consigned to sell the card and stands to make a percentage of the sale price, which is the opposite of a neutral third party

I'm sure the buyers of PWCC stickered cards are aware that PWCC is the one putting the sticker on the card. This isn't a debate about the legitimacy of the stickers.

sh403 · 08-08-2021, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

I'm sure the buyers of PWCC stickered cards are aware that PWCC is the one putting the sticker on the card. This isn't a debate about the legitimacy of the stickers.

and why is that?

KhalDrogo · 08-08-2021, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sh403

and why is that?

Why is this not a debate about the legitimacy of the stickers? Because this is an 86F MJ thread. If you want to complain about stickers, create a new thread in the grading forum.

2010GBPackers · 08-08-2021, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sh403

A black label is put in the holder by BGS, a presumably neutral third party grading company. A PWCC-S sticker is put on the holder by the company that was consigned to sell the card and stands to make a percentage of the sale price, which is the opposite of a neutral third party

Should I guide you to the "Eagle Eye" Joe thread? https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...=eagle+eye+joe

You used a great qualifying word in your statement - "presumably." I'm not saying PWCC doesn't hold an interest in their "S" stickers, but they've stickered a total of two 57 Jordan's.

kefskala · 08-09-2021, 03:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pcptrade

$840K sale at PWCC followed by $240K sale at Goldin

I value your opinion but please state accurate results, card sold for 312,000, which is a nice jump from the past 5 sales minus the one from pwcc...

Pat3ntP3nd1ng · 08-09-2021, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Why is this not a debate about the legitimacy of the stickers? Because this is an 86F MJ thread. If you want to complain about stickers, create a new thread in the grading forum.

I disagree. He’s allowed his perspective in this thread.

You know as well as I that this thread has morphed into more than what it started as. Originally it was about the Jordan 86 PSA 10 breaking the $100,000 mark. I think it’s completely valid to bring up PWCC and it’s gimmick “eye appeal” rating and how it pertains to the current and future values of the card as a whole, and whether or not it should, or how much of a premium it should put on its value.

We’ve all commented on tangential subtopics with regards to this card, including yourself.

As long as this thread doesn’t go completely off topic most of these comments are fair if we ultimately bring it back to the Jordan PSA 10 as reference.

KhalDrogo · 08-09-2021, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat3ntP3nd1ng

I disagree. He’s allowed his perspective in this thread.

You know as well as I that this thread has morphed into more than what it started as. Originally it was about the Jordan 86 PSA 10 breaking the $100,000 mark. I think it’s completely valid to bring up PWCC and it’s gimmick “eye appeal” rating and how it pertains to the current and future values of the card as a whole, and whether or not it should, or how much of a premium it should put on its value.

We’ve all commented on tangential subtopics with regards to this card, including yourself.

As long as this thread doesn’t go completely off topic most of these comments are fair if we ultimately bring it back to the Jordan PSA 10 as reference.

How much premium should a superior eye appeal PSA 10 get over a poor eye appeal PSA 10?

pcptrade · 08-09-2021, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duron

I just want to know why so many won't entertain the idea of such a silly sticker/designation being used deceptively. The card's flaws have already been mentioned.

Perhaps it could be due to PWCC assigning eye appeal sticker designation to trimmed and altered cards that they have sold in the past.

Pat3ntP3nd1ng · 08-09-2021, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

How much premium should a superior eye appeal PSA 10 get over a poor eye appeal PSA 10?

See now we are on the edge of going down the rabbit hole Khal. My honest thought is that PSA should revamp their whole grading method. As the leader in the industry and clearly the most sought after Slabs for investors, essentially having a “Whole Number” grading system and loose card slabs is archaic at best.

For high end cards like this Jordan or even cards that may become high end (any card) using a stricter Grading method like 0.1 - 10.0 and blind multiple person verification grading done before a card is given a 10.0 would be a good place to start. This would help to eliminate all the inundation from gimmicks like PWCC’s “eye appeal” and Mike Baker’s of the world. They only are able to exist because there are not more specific grading levels and criteria which is what grading companies should be doing, not Consignment companies or retired graders. It becomes more an issue of ethics moving forward.

Too many fingers are in the pot, but it’s PSA and the other grading companies that facilitate this from their lackadaisical grading systems.

So to answer your question: There should be zero premium in value because if PSA was doing their job correctly there wouldn’t be a difference in PSA 10’s. Most of these PSA 10 Jordan’s should honestly be in the 9.0 to 9.6 range. PSA 10’s should only be relegated to a card without flaws (this includes centering which they are notoriously lenient on). After all thats what a 10 means (or should), right?

Please no one direct me to PSA’s site on how they grade. I’m well aware of that. That is exactly what the issue is.

KhalDrogo · 08-09-2021, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat3ntP3nd1ng

So to answer your question: There should be zero premium in value because if PSA was doing their job correctly there wouldn’t be a difference in PSA 10’s. Most of these PSA 10 Jordan’s should honestly be in the 9.0 to 9.6 range. PSA 10’s should only be relegated to a card without flaws (this includes centering which they are notoriously lenient on). After all thats what a 10 means (or should), right?

Please no one direct me to PSA’s site on how they grade. I’m well aware of that. That is exactly what the issue is.

Are you actually aware of how they grade though? Gem mint is not perfect. Clearly stated in their grading standards. Easy concept to understand. So how is PSA not doing their job correctly? They're just not doing your interpretation of what grading should be. Given the success of PSA and the failure of other companies who have implemented strategies similar to what you are asking for, PSA's grading standard is the market favorite.

Anybody can quickly look at the PWCC-S copy and the current Goldin copy and see that the two do not have the same eye appeal.

FT35 · 08-09-2021, 10:03 AM

I don’t think there’s a good way of determining how a particular card stacks up against others without every 86F sitting in front of you at the same time. Then you could rank them on which is nicer.

You can only really say how it stacks up against the standards of the grade itself. We’ve discussed this over the years—for example, “is it a strong 9 or a weak 10?” Sticker says strong for its grade—but not necessarily “better than most of its grade.”

08-08-2021, 05:54 PM	#4062
duron Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: NYC Posts: 12,024 drewtang duron	I just want to know why so many won't entertain the idea of such a silly sticker/designation being used deceptively. The card's flaws have already been mentioned. __________________ IG: Darz90sCardz PC: MJ/Penny

08-08-2021, 06:17 PM	#4063
2010GBPackers Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: Milwaukee Posts: 4,144	Yeah, the $800k sale was an eye-opener vs. other recent 57 Jordan sales, but if you look at the trends across vintage RC's, an "S" sticker typically brings 2-2.5x a similarly graded card. I feel the price was way too high, but there's historical evidence that an absolute blazer of a card for the grade will bring much, much more than an average card for the grade. What's weird to me is that those doubting the sale (and I can understand the skepticism) probably wouldn't blink an eye if a Black Label did $1M. It's really the same principal, though, people pay more for what people see as the best of the best. __________________ "And more and more and more and more And more of less than ever before It's just too much more for your mind to absorb" - Yasiin Bey (Mos Def) Instagram: 2010gbpackers

08-08-2021, 03:46 PM	#4057
GOATcards Member Join Date: Feb 2021 Posts: 6,492	I'm guessing a PWCC-S is rare enough to compare with a non-black-label BGS 10 (there are 6 or so of these), and weren't they talking a few pages back about those being somewhere in the area of $1M if they came up for sale?

08-08-2021, 04:51 PM	#4060
JWBlue Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 9,393	How many MJ RC PSA 10 have that PWCC sticker? If it is one or two the sale is legit.

08-08-2021, 04:55 PM	#4061
r338 Member Join Date: Oct 2020 Posts: 388	Goldin should make their own stickers for cards with good eye appeal. Heritage should make their own stickers too.

08-09-2021, 10:03 AM	#4075
FT35 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 2,183	I don’t think there’s a good way of determining how a particular card stacks up against others without every 86F sitting in front of you at the same time. Then you could rank them on which is nicer. You can only really say how it stacks up against the standards of the grade itself. We’ve discussed this over the years—for example, “is it a strong 9 or a weak 10?” Sticker says strong for its grade—but not necessarily “better than most of its grade.”