Topps out---Fanatics in

[slambam]

Originally Posted by Enryon

Why does fanatics have to buy anybody? They already got what they wanted.

Brand recognition. Having Topps on a card means A LOT imo. Look at grading companies. An HGA, GMA or whoever has a typo on a slab and they get murdered for it. If Fanatics comes out with their own brand and people start pulling miscut, terribly centered, etc cards, it'll be hell for them. Their only saving grace MIGHT be that they're the only licensed product, but I could also see a lot of people not buying it out of principal.

[Cam Brady]

Originally Posted by Enryon

Why does fanatics have to buy anybody? They already got what they wanted.


Baseball and Baseball cards existed before Topps and it will exist after Topps.

Maybe Topps can still sell cards at Blockbuster video to the guys who work at the Pontiac plant.

[tyrith]

This will be great if Fanatics is smart and quickly learns from their mistakes. This will be terrible if they don't. Time will tell.

But if I owned a business that has made a lot of money selling wax from distributors, I would be very, very sad tonight. Because as has been mentioned here, I'm sure the #1 thing Fanatics is going to do is stop cutting in the middlemen so heavily on the profit. The distributors and non-big box stores are in for a titanic change.

[speedyjg13]

Does ThoseBackPages add today's date to his signature as the day Topps was killed?

[Enryon]

Originally Posted by Cam Brady

Think there are only 1 or 2 printers in the US that actually make trading cards. Im sure they will still be the ones printing the cards.

Highly unlikely that Fanatics are going to bring printing in house and if they did they would just buy one of the already existing companies instead of starting from scratch since printing trading cards is a niche market.

I know Cartamundi has a facility in Dallas, but Hasbro keeps them pretty much at capacity at all times.

[mwash1983]

Originally Posted by Cam Brady

Maybe Topps can still sell cards at Blockbuster video to the guys who work at the Pontiac plant.

And is owned by Enron.

[Cam Brady]

Originally Posted by slambam

Brand recognition. Having Topps on a card means A LOT imo. Look at grading companies. An HGA, GMA or whoever has a typo on a slab and they get murdered for it. If Fanatics comes out with their own brand and people start pulling miscut, terribly centered, etc cards, it'll be hell for them. Their only saving grace MIGHT be that they're the only licensed product, but I could also see a lot of people not buying it out of principal.

Topps has been making cards for 70 years and still makes miscut and terribly centered cards.

[Giancarlo27]

Originally Posted by Tallguy1991

What do you make of the success of fleer in 1980, when they sued topps for monopolistic behavior?

Edit: reviewing case now and topps was found to be in violation of a number of provisions of the Sherman antitrust act. Compare topps and their baseball gum/card business then to fanatics basically assuming control of retail merchandising top to bottom not just for MLB but the other members of big 3 in 2021. If topps was violating numerous provisions of Sherman in 1980 that would lead a reasonable person to conclude fanatics upon assuming the exclusive trading card licenses in coming years would certainly be just as much in violation as Topps was, if not significantly moreso


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What I make of it is that in 1981 the 3rd circuit reversed the trial court and determined that Topps' exclusive contract with the MLBPA did not constitute an unreasonable restraint of trade in violation of the Sherman Act. So it's actually persuasive precedent against finding the Fanatics deal to be an antitrust violation.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar_c...n&as_sdt=20006

[salthill]

Originally Posted by Cam Brady

Topps has been making cards for 70 years and still makes miscut and terribly centered cards.

You realise that’s an intentional decision? Precision costs money, and it’s not commercially worth it to them to pay for it. The market wouldn’t be prepared to pay for the incremental costs.

[katho]

Arent Monopolies illegal???I never understood why Topps was getting away with it and now Fanatics

[glassofwater]

Originally Posted by Enryon

I know Cartamundi has a facility in Dallas, but Hasbro keeps them pretty much at capacity at all times.

The plant that prints cards in the us is owned by both topps and panini right? They have a new joint one in Mexico? What will happen to that one how about the one in Italy which are all shared by panini and topps

[LittleJimmies]

Originally Posted by mfw13

But Panini doesn't have the history in any sport other than soccer.

There's no Panini Heritage or Panini Archives...just a few Donruss-themed NBA and NFL products with designs from the 80's.

So Topps intellectual property is much more valuable in the baseball card realm than Panini's.

As a child of the 80's I will spend so much money on Donruss Heritage if it happens. Give me all the 86 and 87 Donruss Heritage you can print!

[Enryon]

Originally Posted by slambam

Brand recognition. Having Topps on a card means A LOT imo. Look at grading companies. An HGA, GMA or whoever has a typo on a slab and they get murdered for it. If Fanatics comes out with their own brand and people start pulling miscut, terribly centered, etc cards, it'll be hell for them. Their only saving grace MIGHT be that they're the only licensed product, but I could also see a lot of people not buying it out of principal.

If these boards existed in 1989 I'm sure people here would think that Upper Deck startup would not be able to cut it since they have no brand recognition.

[golakers32]

Alright, who wants to wager on the following:

- Fanatics needs card production.
- Topps is too valuable a baseball card brand to ever "die".
- Topps owners, including Michael Eisner, want a return on their investment.
- Without a SPAC offering, the best return with this Fanatics deal is an acquisition so they can get out.
- Fanatics is the only game in town. They tried to buy Topps before. Here is their opening.
- Fanatics buys Topps, their production and much of their staff, co-opts the name, maybe add their own branded lines, and voila - PROFIT.
- Investment bankers win the day
- Topps LIVES.

Reminds me of when Twinkies stopped production. Another company bought them up and Twinkies are back without missing a beat.

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by katho

Arent Monopolies illegal???I never understood why Topps was getting away with it and now Fanatics

Because it's not a monopoly. Anyone can make cards. Exclusive rights deals are not the same thing as a monopoly

[Rooftop]

Topps should release 50% production on all brands and keep the other 50% in the PWCC vault

[Tallguy1991]

Originally Posted by Glowbug27

I agree with the above, and again, not being a lawyer, but I think there is zero chance any court is going to strike down these agreements 1) because the product, collectible, is not a necessity 2) one could argue that there are benefits to having a single producer and 3) there was economic benefit not just to Fanatics from doing this but to three player unions and sports leagues as well.

Explain fleer v topps in 1980, then….fleer sued topps over maintaining a monopoly on MLB licensing and the courts found topps to be in violation of numerous provisions of the Sherman antitrust act. And topps was just in the gum/baseball card business….fanatics will be in sole control of all big 3 sports trading card business, in addition to controlling such a high percentage of game used sales and merchandise sales that they were an 18 billion dollar company before having anything to do with trading cards. Companies have been found in violation of Sherman with far less to go on than that


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[beaverman3001]

Originally Posted by glassofwater

The plant that prints cards in the us is owned by both topps and panini right? They have a new joint one in Mexico? What will happen to that one how about the one in Italy which are all shared by panini and topps

No, Rex three prints a lot of Topps, but they as far as I know are independent company.

[Giancarlo27]

Originally Posted by Tallguy1991

Explain fleer v topps in 1980, then….fleer sued topps over maintaining a monopoly on MLB licensing and the courts found topps to be in violation of numerous provisions of the Sherman antitrust act. And topps was just in the gum/baseball card business….fanatics will be in sole control of all big 3 sports trading card business, in addition to controlling such a high percentage of game used sales and merchandise sales that they were an 18 billion dollar company before having anything to do with trading cards. Companies have been found in violation of Sherman with far less to go on than that


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I just explained it. The decision was reversed by the appellate court. Do you understand how the federal court system works?

[Cam Brady]

Originally Posted by whitmm

Because it's not a monopoly. Anyone can make cards. Exclusive rights deals are not the same thing as a monopoly

Exactly. Nike isnt a monopoly because they have the exclusive jersey rights for MLB NBA NFL.

[jjrpilot]

My signature has been updated sadly.

[Tallguy1991]

Originally Posted by Giancarlo27

What I make of it is that in 1981 the 3rd circuit reversed the trial court and determined that Topps' exclusive contract with the MLBPA did not constitute an unreasonable restraint of trade in violation of the Sherman Act. So it's actually persuasive precedent against finding the Fanatics deal to be an antitrust violation.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar_c...n&as_sdt=20006

Hmm…and you’re saying that nobody could make a case that fanatics controlling not only the trading card businesses but also the vast majority of retail merchandise sales for the big 3 leagues inhibits competition in a manner detrimental to the consumer?


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[pewe]

Originally Posted by katho

Arent Monopolies illegal???I never understood why Topps was getting away with it and now Fanatics

Nope… the patent office even hands them out with official support from the government


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[whattheblood]

Every dog has its day. Topps has been fing as all year with outlandish prices. Haven't bought wax all year.

[Giancarlo27]

Originally Posted by Tallguy1991

Hmm…and you’re saying that nobody could make a case that fanatics controlling not only the trading card businesses but also the vast majority of retail merchandise sales for the big 3 leagues inhibits competition in a manner detrimental to the consumer?


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I'm not saying nobody could make the case at all. I'm just saying that there is appellate-level precedent concluding that licensing deals exactly like these are not illegal. Granted, that was forty years ago, and things can change in that time (especially if a lawsuit is brought in a different circuit where Fleer v. Topps is not binding on the court). Topps could give a lawsuit a shot, but I would guess it is more likely than not to fail.