Topps out---Fanatics in

[mfw13]

Originally Posted by auctionjmm

I came back into the hobby in 2010. If I start there and move forward, I can think of plenty of creative/imaginative/new ideas that Topps brought to the hobby where they were either the first or only, and collectors bought in. You may not agree with all of these, but this is what Topps innovated:

- Bonus "silver packs" in Flagship products.
- Topps Now
- Online Exclusive releases
- Bat Knob/Barrell relics
- Topps Living
- Project 2020
- Montgomery Club
- Certified relic holograms with an online database showing the exact game the relic came from.
- Million Card Giveaway / Cards Your Mom Threw Out
- Transcendent with VIP party
- Celebrity autographs in baseball products (A&G, Sandlot, Field of Dreams)
- Ginter Code (2008)

Again, you may not agree with all of these being good ideas but at the time they were exciting, generated a lot of discussion especially on this forum, and gave people new things to collect/chase/participate in.

You can go back even further and talk about prospect/minor league products which at one point would have seemed like a boring idea and now prospect cards are the most highly sought after.

So I believe Topps does in fact have a long history of innovating the hobby. They had faults, yes. And maybe you think Fanatics can do better on the technical side in terms of QC, customer service, website experience, distribution etc., but let's not act like Topps hasn't been constantly evolving and bringing new concepts to the table.

I would also add things like the 35th Anniversary throwbacks in Flagship, HOFer SSP's in Flagship, the Archives product line (started in 2012), the oversized 5x7 "Wall Art" cards, as well as the entire Throwback Thursday line.

The flipside is that Topps has been largely mailing it in in terms of card design, and has become too reliant on color parallels for value creation within products, rather than the innovative inserts Panini has created (Kaboom, Color Blast, Downtown, etc.).

[mfw13]

Originally Posted by ScooterMcRibs

But I have to ask, how's that USD working out for you? Maybe bagholders who live in USD glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

I have no idea what you're talking about or trying to say, but I'll simply point out that despite inflation, the USD, like all major currencies, has been very stable in value. That's one of the hallmarks of a bona fide currency. You don't see the USD or Euro dropping 33% in a couple of weeks and then doubling in value a month later.

Bitcoin (and all alt-coins), on the other hand, is highly unstable and trades like a speculative tech stock. It's been a very good investment for many people, but it's not a viable currency.

[OneSickDegen]

Originally Posted by mfw13

Bitcoin (and all alt-coins), on the other hand, is highly unstable and trades like a speculative tech stock. It's been a very good investment for many people, but it's not a viable currency.

Bitcoin is property. It's an asset like digital gold. It's not really effective as a currency here because every transaction is a taxable event.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by auctionjmm

I came back into the hobby in 2010. If I start there and move forward, I can think of plenty of creative/imaginative/new ideas that Topps brought to the hobby where they were either the first or only, and collectors bought in. You may not agree with all of these, but this is what Topps innovated:

- Bonus "silver packs" in Flagship products.
- Topps Now
- Online Exclusive releases
- Bat Knob/Barrell relics
- Topps Living
- Project 2020
- Montgomery Club
- Certified relic holograms with an online database showing the exact game the relic came from.
- Million Card Giveaway / Cards Your Mom Threw Out
- Transcendent with VIP party
- Celebrity autographs in baseball products (A&G, Sandlot, Field of Dreams)
- Ginter Code (2008)

Again, you may not agree with all of these being good ideas but at the time they were exciting, generated a lot of discussion especially on this forum, and gave people new things to collect/chase/participate in.

You can go back even further and talk about prospect/minor league products which at one point would have seemed like a boring idea and now prospect cards are the most highly sought after.

So I believe Topps does in fact have a long history of innovating the hobby. They had faults, yes. And maybe you think Fanatics can do better on the technical side in terms of QC, customer service, website experience, distribution etc., but let's not act like Topps hasn't been constantly evolving and bringing new concepts to the table.

I think Topps made a big mistake recycling the 1953 design for the Living Set. They should have created a new, more modern, distinct and sophisticated looking design for the set that enhanced the artwork. Using vintage stock cheapened the look.

For example, Topps Gallery originally used materials and designs that emphasized the art nature of the sets, with foil frames resembling painting frames and surfaces that resembled painting canvases.

Mayumi Seto' artwork in 2016 Transcendent was the springboard for the Living Set. And the concept of painted portraits for cards was originally done by Donruss for their Diamond Kings subset.

The concept of metal framed autograph cards was not original to Transcendent. I believe the first release of these types of cards was in 2011 Topps Marquee.

The Topps Now concept is similar to Panini's Next Day signatures of draft picks, first introduced in 2009. The cards are printed on site.

The authentication stickers and registry for relics is not at all Topps' idea -- it was MLB's idea to have an authentication program for game-used memorabilia. Topps just decided to partner with them.

The use of authentication stickers on autographed Topps cards goes all the way back to 2000, I believe.

[ewokpelts]

Originally Posted by unclebuggy

Haha, I think they are showing that they do know what made Topps Topps: Blocking the competition. Only instead of literally buying out the main competitors (like Bowman in the 50s) or going to court, Fanatics is following Topps's more recent precedent in obtaining exclusive licenses.

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Topps isn’t the first to get an exclusive license. That was UD with hockey in 2004. And then panini in 2009 with the nba.

[base set]

Seto worked on Gallery in 2017, before Living Set. Nobody cared. The Heritage version of 53 was a bunch of cold sterile digital photos. Trying the set again with new art was a good idea that proved popular. Baseball fans tend to like history. But what really drives popularity is limited print runs - the essay writer from Fanatics is correct about this. Seto’s work in ‘17 Gallery has an unknown, but substantial, print run. Thus, Zzzzz was the market reaction.

Whatever Topps does, people complain. The same will be true of whatever Fanatics does.

One thing we don’t know is - did Fanatics approach the Players Associations and Leagues? Or did a pair of Player Associations approach Fanatics?

I personally am not optimistic about the future of baseball cards, with the much higher license fees. WE, collectors, will ultimately pay them. A beer in a stadium costs what a 6 pack costs outside the stadium. The players wanted MORE money. Cards will be priced accordingly. The fans always have more money that can be squeezed out of them, don’t they?

[base set]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

And the concept of painted portraits for cards was originally done by Donruss for their Diamond Kings subset.

And where do you think Donruss got the idea?

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by base set

I personally am not optimistic about the future of baseball cards, with the much higher license fees. WE, collectors, will ultimately pay them. A beer in a stadium costs what a 6 pack costs outside the stadium. The players wanted MORE money. Cards will be priced accordingly. The fans always have more money that can be squeezed out of them, don’t they?

Which pile of Fanatics cards are more expensive - a million cards priced $1/ea or two million cards at .50/ea?

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by base set

And where do you think Donruss got the idea?

Bowman? Allen & Ginter?

I see your point lol

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by base set

Seto worked on Gallery in 2017, before Living Set. Nobody cared. The Heritage version of 53 was a bunch of cold sterile digital photos. Trying the set again with new art was a good idea that proved popular. Baseball fans tend to like history. But what really drives popularity is limited print runs - the essay writer from Fanatics is correct about this. Seto’s work in ‘17 Gallery has an unknown, but substantial, print run. Thus, Zzzzz was the market reaction.

Whatever Topps does, people complain. The same will be true of whatever Fanatics does.

One thing we don’t know is - did Fanatics approach the Players Associations and Leagues? Or did a pair of Player Associations approach Fanatics?

I personally am not optimistic about the future of baseball cards, with the much higher license fees. WE, collectors, will ultimately pay them. A beer in a stadium costs what a 6 pack costs outside the stadium. The players wanted MORE money. Cards will be priced accordingly. The fans always have more money that can be squeezed out of them, don’t they?

Yes -- but what does original artwork of mostly modern players have to do with the 53 release? It just seems like a lazy way for Topps to generate a design.

[base set]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

Yes -- but what does original artwork of mostly modern players have to do with the 53 release? It just seems like a lazy way for Topps to generate a design.

You don’t seem to know much about the 1953 Topps set.

Topps re-uses designs. People buy the results. That’s what businesses do. They produce products that people purchase, because they want them.

Meanwhile they release new products and lots of new designs routinely. Its ALL boring and lazy. ALL of it. The glib commentary is what is boring and lazy.

[unclebuggy]

Originally Posted by ewokpelts

Topps isn’t the first to get an exclusive license. That was UD with hockey in 2004. And then panini in 2009 with the nba.

Topps held a de facto exclusive license and a monopoly after buying Bowman in 1956. That was the entire reason why they bought them out. They didn't invent any of this, but they have an obvious and long appreciation for limiting competition through buy outs, law suits, and exclusive licensing.

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[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by base set

You don’t seem to know much about the 1953 Topps set.

Topps re-uses designs. People buy the results. That’s what businesses do. They produce products that people purchase, because they want them.

Meanwhile they release new products and lots of new designs routinely. Its ALL boring and lazy. ALL of it. The glib commentary is what is boring and lazy.

Okay, so Living Set is basically a homage to 53 -- a redo of the Heritage set, with painted art instead of photos.

Very innovative.

The only thing unique thing about it is the open-ended setlist.

[IlliniBear]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

Okay, so Living Set is basically a homage to 53 -- a redo of the Heritage set, with painted art instead of photos.

Very innovative.

The only thing unique thing about it is the open-ended setlist.

I think 1953 produced beautiful cards but you make a great point that it’s not innovative.

The Living set should be chrome at a minimum and probably should’ve had a more modern design.

Topps efforts are incredibly safe and uninspiring. Their cards are demonstrably less attractive than Pannini’s, particularly when you consider the inserts.

I’m excited to see what Fanstics can do. Hope they hire people from Panini to design their sets.

[SearchPatrol]

I would like to know if the major league's have an out with Fanatics. If after 3-4 years, the market is down. Fanatics runs into problems getting cards to collectors. Would they be able to just drop Fanatics and try to get somebody else to make the cards. I would think the Leagues are the hammer - and Fanatics are the nail.

[Handsome Wes]

For all the bluster about "economic flywheels" and "positioning ourselves for the future," Fanatics has done a remarkably poor job of actually saying what, you know, its product is going to be. Give me some tangible details!

Is it so hard to say something like "We have a contract with a manufacturer with a reputation for high-quality cards. You are going to see packs and boxes nationwide in stores, card shops, and of course, Fanatics.com.

'For baseball, we are planning five release featuring today's players:
- A base set of 600 cards. These are the ones you remember collecting as kids.
- An "elite" version of the base set.
- A "retro" set of 300, featuring today's top players on timeless card designs
- A "artsy" version of 300...
- Fanatics Diamond: High-End cards for the high-end collector.

'There will be variations and special inserts available in packs and boxes. And official MLBPA partners, we'll have autographs and game-used jerseys and special 1/1 releases.

'Additionally, exclusively on Fanatics.com you will be able to get digital versions of these cards and be on the lookout for exclusive, one-of-a-kind NFT's. And for those who purchase physical cards through Fanatics.com, you can have them graded for free - and even put them up on our Fanatics auction site at a rate far lower than other online auction houses!"

......whatever man, that's just my pipe dream. I just want to be able to buy an annual complete set of base cards.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by Handsome Wes

For all the bluster about "economic flywheels" and "positioning ourselves for the future," Fanatics has done a remarkably poor job of actually saying what, you know, its product is going to be. Give me some tangible details!

Is it so hard to say something like "We have a contract with a manufacturer with a reputation for high-quality cards. You are going to see packs and boxes nationwide in stores, card shops, and of course, Fanatics.com.

'For baseball, we are planning five release featuring today's players:
- A base set of 600 cards. These are the ones you remember collecting as kids.
- An "elite" version of the base set.
- A "retro" set of 300, featuring today's top players on timeless card designs
- A "artsy" version of 300...
- Fanatics Diamond: High-End cards for the high-end collector.

'There will be variations and special inserts available in packs and boxes. And official MLBPA partners, we'll have autographs and game-used jerseys and special 1/1 releases.

'Additionally, exclusively on Fanatics.com you will be able to get digital versions of these cards and be on the lookout for exclusive, one-of-a-kind NFT's. And for those who purchase physical cards through Fanatics.com, you can have them graded for free - and even put them up on our Fanatics auction site at a rate far lower than other online auction houses!"

......whatever man, that's just my pipe dream. I just want to be able to buy an annual complete set of base cards.

How well does Topps do even announcing checklists?

Fanatics doesn’t have to say a thing, and that’s ok.

[oldgoldy97]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

How well does Topps do even announcing checklists?

Fanatics doesn’t have to say a thing, and that’s ok.

He didn’t say a thing about checklists.

[Raleigh504]

I think it would be smart (at least early on) for Fanatics to partner with LCS and make them buy products at 80-90% MSRP to generate sales. Just have them in different tiered for the amount of products and discount. They will need those sales at first because who knows how collectors will react.

[ewokpelts]

Originally Posted by unclebuggy

Topps held a de facto exclusive license and a monopoly after buying Bowman in 1956. That was the entire reason why they bought them out. They didn't invent any of this, but they have an obvious and long appreciation for limiting competition through buy outs, law suits, and exclusive licensing.

Sent from my SM-G970U1 using Tapatalk

1956 is ancient history. Hell, 1981 is old timey Black and white.

This industry has gone through so many waves in just the last ten years. You need to readjust that perspective.

[ewokpelts]

Originally Posted by Raleigh504

I think it would be smart (at least early on) for Fanatics to partner with LCS and make them buy products at 80-90% MSRP to generate sales. Just have them in different tiered for the amount of products and discount. They will need those sales at first because who knows how collectors will react.

There’s a reason why the industry at large uses multiple points of purchase. The buyers aren’t in just one spot.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by Handsome Wes

For all the bluster about "economic flywheels" and "positioning ourselves for the future," Fanatics has done a remarkably poor job of actually saying what, you know, its product is going to be. Give me some tangible details!

Is it so hard to say something like "We have a contract with a manufacturer with a reputation for high-quality cards. You are going to see packs and boxes nationwide in stores, card shops, and of course, Fanatics.com.

'For baseball, we are planning five release featuring today's players:
- A base set of 600 cards. These are the ones you remember collecting as kids.
- An "elite" version of the base set.
- A "retro" set of 300, featuring today's top players on timeless card designs
- A "artsy" version of 300...
- Fanatics Diamond: High-End cards for the high-end collector.

'There will be variations and special inserts available in packs and boxes. And official MLBPA partners, we'll have autographs and game-used jerseys and special 1/1 releases.

'Additionally, exclusively on Fanatics.com you will be able to get digital versions of these cards and be on the lookout for exclusive, one-of-a-kind NFT's. And for those who purchase physical cards through Fanatics.com, you can have them graded for free - and even put them up on our Fanatics auction site at a rate far lower than other online auction houses!"

......whatever man, that's just my pipe dream. I just want to be able to buy an annual complete set of base cards.

Because mystique and vague hype is better than specific details.

They can trickle details out over time to hold people's attention.

[unclebuggy]

Originally Posted by ewokpelts

1956 is ancient history. Hell, 1981 is old timey Black and white.



This industry has gone through so many waves in just the last ten years. You need to readjust that perspective.

This was all about my response to the idea someone shared: "I hope Fanatics remembers what made Topps Topps."

When I first mentioned Topps's substantial efforts to block competiton, you ignored most of it but said Topps wasn't the first to get exclusive rights... After pointing out that they did it 50 years before Panini, while also suing to limit competition along the way, you suggested that was too long ago to matter.

Yeah, okay.

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[JRX]

Originally Posted by unclebuggy

This was all about my response to the idea someone shared: "I hope Fanatics remembers what made Topps Topps."

When I first mentioned Topps's substantial efforts to block competiton, you ignored most of it but said Topps wasn't the first to get exclusive rights... After pointing out that they did it 50 years before Panini, while also suing to limit competition along the way, you suggested that was too long ago to matter.

Yeah, okay.

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Yeah and you were being snarky towards someone who has gotten a lot of joy out of topps over the years.

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[unclebuggy]

Originally Posted by JRX

Yeah and you were being snarky towards someone who has gotten a lot of joy out of topps over the years.

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Sure, but by literally responding to a comment directed at me.

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