Print Runs on 1996 Topps Chrome Refractors

[msink28]

Didn't know there were both hobby and retail for the product. Learn something new every day.

Originally Posted by marinocollector

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/275005784534...sAAOSwcKBhe3VU

[dev6015]

Originally Posted by msink28

Didn't know there were both hobby and retail for the product. Learn something new every day.

Lol it looks like someone either just bought that listing or the seller took it down, literally within the last hour.

[Chiefnocahoma]

Would guess pr would be no more than 200. These were not prevalent in my recollection. I think i have a cj nitkowski somewhere.

[WizardofOz1982]

Originally Posted by rats60

When Chrome Basketball came out in 1997 it sat in Sam's Club's, not to mention at Walmarts. It was not hot. It didn't heat up until the next year when Kobe Bryant started playing better and made the AS game. It wasn't retail only, it was an exclusive for Sam's/Walmart and they got a lot of it. There was definitely a lot less Chrome Baseball than either Chrome Basketball or Finest Baseball.

People didn't notice because there was no demand for the product. When Topps made Bowman Chrome in 1997, collectors continued to ignore Topps Chrome with no RCs. As for FB, 1998 was the first year Football Collectors cared about Chrome, with Moss and Manning RCs. No need to do research when I was setting up at shows and know what collectors were buying instead of just making things up.

Maybe it was a regional thing but we sold a ridiculous amount of 1997 Chrome basketball at shows during the 1997 season. Finest got scarce quickly and people turned to Chrome. I'd have to go check records from back then but I know we went through 20+ cases worth of boxes and that was a ton of product for us in those days.

Finest was more popular but I couldn't keep Chrome RCs of Van Horn, Duncan, or McGrady on the table. Even guys like Jacque Vaughn and Chauncey Billups were easy sells.

[marinocollector]

Originally Posted by rats60

When Chrome Basketball came out in 1997 it sat in Sam's Club's, not to mention at Walmarts. It was not hot. It didn't heat up until the next year when Kobe Bryant started playing better and made the AS game. It wasn't retail only, it was an exclusive for Sam's/Walmart and they got a lot of it. There was definitely a lot less Chrome Baseball than either Chrome Basketball or Finest Baseball.

People didn't notice because there was no demand for the product. When Topps made Bowman Chrome in 1997, collectors continued to ignore Topps Chrome with no RCs. As for FB, 1998 was the first year Football Collectors cared about Chrome, with Moss and Manning RCs. No need to do research when I was setting up at shows and know what collectors were buying instead of just making things up.

Youre obviously misremembering, or your region was not 100% like the rest of the country.

Yes, some areas 96-97 Topps Chrome Basketball sat. But overall, it was a scarce product. The Kobe for $12 was an item a lot of savvy collectors were looking for, even in 1997.

1997 Topps Chrome Football was INSANELY hot. It landed shortly after the basketball blow up and Jake Plummers RC was number one on the hot list for a long time.

1997 Topps Chrome Baseball sold well, although not as insane as the Bowman Chrome product with Lee, Cruz, and Woods.

The production numbers of less than 200 of each 1996 Topps Chrome Refractor is just not accurate. There is no feasible way its that low of a print run. Thats a meager 16,500 hobby boxes. That would mean dealers across the country only got 2-3 boxes each, no distributors purchased any, and no retail product existed.

You know and I know, even a dead product, would have to have a higher print run than that.

And we both know that the way the hobby was Chrome crazy and refractor crazy, someone would have taken note and mentioned that low of a print run in 26 years of being out. Look at 1998 Topps Tek and their Diffractors. Those were well documented for YEARS of their scarcity, and there's essentially over 450 of any player.

[marinocollector]

Originally Posted by WizardofOz1982

Maybe it was a regional thing but we sold a ridiculous amount of 1997 Chrome basketball at shows during the 1997 season. Finest got scarce quickly and people turned to Chrome. I'd have to go check records from back then but I know we went through 20+ cases worth of boxes and that was a ton of product for us in those days.

Finest was more popular but I couldn't keep Chrome RCs of Van Horn, Duncan, or McGrady on the table. Even guys like Jacque Vaughn and Chauncey Billups were easy sells.

Youre thinking of 1997-98... not 96-97. 96-97 sat on a lot of shelves at a lot of wal marts bc wal marts are everywhere, and basketball was still not as popular as the other sports through out the country. it was growing a lot, but not like it is today

[mc1]

Originally Posted by marinocollector

Youre thinking of 1997-98... not 96-97. 96-97 sat on a lot of shelves at a lot of wal marts bc wal marts are everywhere, and basketball was still not as popular as the other sports through out the country. it was growing a lot, but not like it is today

Finest was a lot more popular than Chrome in 1996-97. Chrome took off about 6 months after release and became more popular than Finest by Early 1998.

[Chris P]

Originally Posted by marinocollector

Youre thinking of 1997-98... not 96-97. 96-97 sat on a lot of shelves at a lot of wal marts bc wal marts are everywhere, and basketball was still not as popular as the other sports through out the country. it was growing a lot, but not like it is today

Yep as a kid i remeber seeing 1996-97 chrome at my WM just there. I bought one pack and that was it (i was a kid on an allowance lol). Pulled an Iverson RC which i still have and a kerry kittles youthquake

[junkwaxgems]

Anecdotal info: not only did I open a ton of this at retail (Toys R Us), I worked at a card shop which broke a ton of this (mostly via packwars) and base refractors didn't fall 1:box always. Many boxes had 1 or 2 insert refractors instead. They were extremely popular cards at release.

I'd opened 4-5 boxes worth of retail packs before seeing my first base card refractor (Todd Greene, still have it ).

The base set refractors were usually horribly off-center. This could be affecting the number of raws still out. Or maybe not...

[WizardofOz1982]

Originally Posted by marinocollector

Youre thinking of 1997-98... not 96-97. 96-97 sat on a lot of shelves at a lot of wal marts bc wal marts are everywhere, and basketball was still not as popular as the other sports through out the country. it was growing a lot, but not like it is today

1996 yes. He said 1997 though. Maybe he meant 96. I don't know.

[Thor34]

Originally Posted by Doublexthebeast

Take a different approach- most 90’s products were thought to be around 6,000-10,000 cases printed. Obviously that varies per product. Considering this was a retail only product go with the middle at 8,000 cases.

165 base cards
15 wrecking crew
20 masters of the game

200 total cards- I don’t know if the inserts had different odds but I’ll consider them even for this project

8,000 cases at 12 boxes each= 96,000 boxes
96,000 box x 24 packs= 2,304,000 packs
2,304,000 packs at a 1:12 ratio= 192,000 refractors
192,000 refractors with a 200 card checklist= 960 refractors for each player

I might be mistaken but I believe Hobby Boxes had 1:12 Refractor odds and the Retail Boxes had 1:24 Refractor odds. Can't say what the mix of those two types of Boxes would have been.
Great thread.
I love the set.
I have a complete 1996 Topps Chrome base set and a complete Refractor set raw.

[dev6015]

Originally Posted by Thor34

I might be mistaken but I believe Hobby Boxes had 1:12 Refractor odds and the Retail Boxes had 1:24 Refractor odds. Can't say what the mix of those two types of Boxes would have been.
Great thread.
I love the set.
I have a complete 1996 Topps Chrome base set and a complete Refractor set raw.

Refractors were 1:12 in both Hobby and Retail. Best I can tell from seeing sold boxes on eBay it looks like there were 24 packs in Hobby and 20 in Retail. Otherwise I can't ascertain if there were any differences in insertion ratios or anything between formats and none are listed on BB Card Pedia.

[Thor34]

Originally Posted by junkwaxgems

Anecdotal info: not only did I open a ton of this at retail (Toys R Us), I worked at a card shop which broke a ton of this (mostly via packwars) and base refractors didn't fall 1:box always. Many boxes had 1 or 2 insert refractors instead. They were extremely popular cards at release.

I'd opened 4-5 boxes worth of retail packs before seeing my first base card refractor (Todd Greene, still have it ).

The base set refractors were usually horribly off-center. This could be affecting the number of raws still out. Or maybe not...

This is an important post.
You could very likely land a Insert Refractor and end up with no Refractors in a retail box.

I think the OC thing is a really big deal.
I have complete sets of 1996 TC Baseball Base and Refractors collated back in the day and the majority of the cards are OC or grossly OC.
Surface flaws including print lines and printing scratches were also common.
Most of these would be considered ungradable.
Now, with the value rise in Jeters and Griffeys etc, more of these could hit grading even if they got 6's or 7's they would have plenty of buyers and still yield a nice price.

My guess is 400-500 of each Refractor.

[Thor34]

Originally Posted by BosPats1980

I loved the 1996 Topps Chrome Baseball set when it came out. Those refractors were very hard to find and the rumors were rampant on PR. I do believe that unlike in Basketball (Which was retail only) that they made a Retail box and Hobby Box. I'd just be guessing but I would have thought that maybe 150-200 would be the PR for Refractors (Probably closer to 150) Great set with a ton of awesome players and memories. Good luck with your journey

I used to own these:

Really NICE!!!!

[Thor34]

If PSA ever brings back Bulk, I'm planning on grading an entire 1996 Topps Chrome Baseball Refractor set. I'm not holding my breath though with all that been going on with them.

[joshua.roundtre]

I was always a fan of this one. If anyone has a copy FS, in PSA 9 or 10, feel free to DM me.




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[superdan49]

Originally Posted by marinocollector

Also, I would say a lot more 93 Finest Griffeys are crossed or surfaces cleaned.

And as far as 96 Mirrors go.... they're a great set to resub. Most collectors dont know the cards have a protective film which looks like crap and knocks down a grade 1-2 points. So many in the know collectors see a bad surface, buy low, peel, and re sub.

Those '96 Select Certified peels are a lot tougher to get off than Finest peels, however. I slightly nicked the edge of a Mirror Red I peeled for my PC, which still bugs me whenever I look at that card.

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by rats60

There are more than 241 of each finest refractor. That number was speculation, but at least one hoarder exceeded that number of a player.

To my knowledge, the most examples of a single 1993 Finest Refractor a collector ever horded was the 142 Randy Myers cards owned by the late Phil Gold.
https://web.archive.org/web/20170509...efractors.com/

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by superdan49

To my knowledge, the most examples of a single 1993 Finest Refractor a collector ever horded was the 142 Randy Myers cards owned by the late Phil Gold.
https://web.archive.org/web/20170509...efractors.com/

Agreed, I believe the other member is talking about 1996 Selected Certified Mirror Golds/30 either in baseball or hockey and some other release supposedly limited to 50 that may have been Finest, not sure though.

Phil was likely one of the first super collectors out there. That was one heck of a collection and it was a disaster to see the way PWCC( or Probstein?) auctioned the hoard off. This is why I believe Goldin's Vault and Fanatics Vault has a future. They can take care of selling the collection and the family just has to be concerned about the trust it should be deposited too.

[priestc]

I only ever opened one single pack of 96 Chrome. It was from the checkout line at a Meijers grocery store in Ohio when I was in 7th grade. I pulled a Roger Clemens refractor. This was when Clemens was the hottest pitcher in baseball. To this day, its my most memorable pull. I was so excited, and still own the card today.

[Thor34]

Picked up Mattingly's first and last Topps Chrome. Career recap as he retired after the 1995 season.

[Spencer44]

[QUOTE=soey10;17901274]I think your estimates are not that far off. Probably in the 150-300 card range. I remember 1996 I was 15 years old at the time and this product was not popular. It was an experimental product building off of the bowman’s best chrome technology.
Trying to sell an experimental product at a higher than average cost through retail outlets is a recipe for disaster if you are not careful. This is why I think that the overall production run of 1996 Topps Chelme was lower than a normal product from the era. Even Select Certified was in year number 2 and had great success from baseball but better success from football. So stepping up for year 2 was calculated, plus they were a hobby only distribution.

I just don't think there are that many 1996 & 1997 Baseball refractor from these sets. The quality control was sooo off and its just not showing up in the graded numbers 25 years later. I say 200-300 at the most. Some of these issues I'm not sure you can find one that would grade a PSA 9 let alone a 10 they are so off center and the silver chrome border scratch too much.

[phdbeckett]

I remember the last time the National was in Cleveland(2018), a dealer had a ton of chrome refractors in card savers (maybe upwards of 600). They all were priced as marked...

I remember buying maybe 30 of them, including 3 Chippers, a Griffey all star, and these:



I think these got 8s or one was a 8 and one was a 7. I had 5 Jeters, I still have 2 including a PSA 9.

I lean toward the lower estimates on the print run side. Likely 200 or less, especially since I bought nearly every base raw Jeter off EBAY from 2017-2019 and that might have been a total of 50. There are not millions in production, not hundreds of thousands either. This was a limited print all the way.

[itsinusall]

1996 Topps chrome Baseball was not retail only. Where I bought my first couple boxes was at the local Distributor that has since gone belly up. I bought two boxes for $90 total if I remember correct. I would guess the refactors have a print run under 500.

The centering on base and refractors were absolutely terrible so I would not rely on the pop count to much or compare to mirror IMO because (mirror red, blue, and golds)there was no quality issues outside of print lines that I remember.

[mrdallas]

Jumping late on this thread. Someone posted similar in basketball thread so I posted this there. Now I'll post here and see if I can get a response

This thread has me curious about something else with the 96 Chrome. So I have been and put put together the 1996 Chrome Baseball Refactor set. Half of the cards have the glossy shine the other have a thin coating, which can look very funky IMHO.

But here is the question. I bought a Don Mattingly refractor PSA 8 which I cracked out. Centering is a little off and a few Surface scratches but is has a Super Glossy Shine , almost say mirror like.
. Then, I just bought a PSA 9 Frank Thomas (Needed an Upgrade and also was curious if it had the shine or coat. From what I can tell through the case it has the Coat. So how is PSA grading these? If the Mattingly came back an 8 and the Thomas cames back a 9 with one of each type of surface, it seems like they are simply grading on how the Surface looks rather than if the coating is on. But does anyone know?

In addition, I had picked up a Set on eBay a few years ago for dirt cheap. Looked like someone collected it early on (probably late 90s as the whole set was still in a 9 pocket sleeves and binder. And apparently didnt know what they had because there were some refractors mixed in, including a few that are real glossy without coat, that have the gloss/shine, while other refractors had the thin coat that looks like it was there to protect the undergloss. But now I am curious. Does anyone know about PSA standards on these?

I don't grade cards ever, (why I cracked the Mattingly out even though I bought it that way). But I want to understand. I have also had three separate Chipper Jones, and each one I have had/has the gloss but no film over the top. Sold the best one a few years back when like an idiot but oh well.

So the question again, can someone give me clarification regarding the Coat and the affect on the grade from PSA. Does the coat matter or simply the condition of the Surface regardless of coat. Considering the Mattingly without coat got an 8 and had subpar centering and some surface scratches I am guessing the latter, but not sure