Wander Franco Rookie Card Debate (2021 Bowman's Best vs. 2022 RC logo cards)

[Hardcore]

Originally Posted by k13

2022 S1 will go down too after release yet people will pay inflated prices at start.

Long term 2021 bb will be worth more than 2022 s1 anyway.
There won't be cheap wax to open to get it so the population will be smaller than the total print run.

But the 2022 RC logo high-end/super premium and autographed RCs that come out later in 2022 will all be higher than 2021 BB.

[theshowandme]

Originally Posted by Hardcore

But the 2022 RC logo high-end/super premium and autographed RCs that come out later in 2022 will all be higher than 2021 BB.

In other words, water is wet

2021 Topps Dynasty Juan Soto 4th year stuff sells for about 10x what a raw US300 does.

[brewtown107]

Originally Posted by imbluestreak23

Figured this would be a good tracker showing the manipulation of MLBPA rules to maximize sales of cardboard to make more money (South Park voice)

2008:
Pablo Sandoval - 8//13/2008 - RC logo in 2008 products including Topps Heritage High Number, 2008 Topps Red Hot Rookie program, but ALSO included in 2008 Bowman Draft (after the previous two releases) as a prospect card. Let this example be proof that it is well within Topps and MLBPAs authority and timeline to release RC logo cards as far up as the middle of August during the same year. Humanity is moving forward (mostly), not behind, and thus we would expect these timelines to shrink thus allowing faster turnaround times for RC logo inclusions.

2015:
Carlos Correa - 6/7/15 - RC Logo in 2015 products including Topps Chrome released on 8/3/2015
Francisco Lindor - 6/13/15 - RC Logo in 2015 products including Topps Chrome released on 8/3/2015
Kyle Schwarber - 6/15/15 - RC Logo in 2016 products as hobby poster boy

2016:
Alex Bregman - 7/24/16 - RC Logo in 2017 products as hobby poster boy

2017:
Rafael Devers - 7/23/17 - RC Logo in 2018 products as hobby poster boy

2018:
Ronald Acuna Jr. - 4/20/18 - RC logo in 2018 products including Topps Finest as a mystery redemption released on 6/6/2018 and Topps Series 2 on 6/13/18
Juan soto - 5/20/2018 - RC logo in 2018 products including Topps Archives released 8/13/18

2019:
Fernando Tatis Jr. - 3/28/19 - RC logo in 2019 products
Vladimir Guerrero Jr. 4/24/19 - RC logo in 2019 products including Topps Series 2 released 6/12/19
Yordan Alvarez - 6/9/19 - RC logo in 2020 products as hobby poster boy
Bo Bichette - 7/28/19 - RC logo in 2020 products as hobby poster boy

2021:
Wander Franco - 6/22/21 - RC Logo in 2022 products as hobby poster boy, but true RC released in 2021 BB

You actually disprove your own point with this post.

It's very clear from that timeline that there is a cutoff point that moves callups into the next years' products. It was in August a million years ago in hobby time, but has consistently been in in June or July since. The bolded sentence is pure fantasy that totally ignores the headwinds the manufacturers have been facing as time has gone on, including a pandemic moving releases back, supply chain and labor issues, and massive increases in production as the hobby has gotten much more popular. All of those factors could very reasonably contribute to an earlier flip date for RC inclusion, compared to years when that was not a factor.

[theshowandme]

[26TagOut]

Originally Posted by Shankweather

Schrodinger's rookie card

It simultaneously exists as both a rookie card and a prospect card until you flip it over and observe the number on the back. Hahahaha brilliant.

[rangerfan19]

I'm just happy that so many people have posted about the guaranteed tank in value of the 2021 BBest #50 after 2022 Topps Series 1 comes out so that I can unload all of the ones I have been buying recently before its too late!

[Bcr]

Originally Posted by brewtown107

You actually disprove your own point with this post.

It's very clear from that timeline that there is a cutoff point that moves callups into the next years' products. It was in August a million years ago in hobby time, but has consistently been in in June or July since. The bolded sentence is pure fantasy that totally ignores the headwinds the manufacturers have been facing as time has gone on, including a pandemic moving releases back, supply chain and labor issues, and massive increases in production as the hobby has gotten much more popular. All of those factors could very reasonably contribute to an earlier flip date for RC inclusion, compared to years when that was not a factor.

Exactly this!

https://cardchat.substack.com/p/a-de...1-topps-update

[Hardcore]

Originally Posted by theshowandme

In other words, water is wet

2021 Topps Dynasty Juan Soto 4th year stuff sells for about 10x what a raw US300 does.

duh..
we are talking about people who just want rookie cards

How about 2022 Topps Chrome auto RC as a more realistic comparison?

[brewtown107]

Originally Posted by imbluestreak23

The problem with your definition again is there are cards that deserve a Royal Crown Cola logo but do not have it. Exceptions. 1st card is ALL INCLUSIVE, especially if licensed by a league.

I mean, last I checked, the Tampa Bay Rays were paying Wander in 2019 to play baseball. They are a major league team. Henry Davis was drafted #1 overall by Pittsburgh. They are paying him a salary to play baseball. I don't have too much of an issue calling his first cards rookies. Henry Davis 2021 Bowman Draft "rookies" are more so "rookies" in my book than a 2022 4th year Wander after Wander had already hit home runs in the 2021 playoffs.

All rules have exceptions eventually. That's been my position from the very start.

Again, the RC logo = RC definition is not my definition. It is the K.I.S.S. definition.

People have cited to the handful of exceptions that exist out of millions of cards produced since 2006, where a player doesn't have a card at all with the RC logo. Those very limited exceptions don't make the RC logo less simple for the vast majority of cards.

Again, because we're talking simple.

Your definition of 1st card sounds simpler, but then I don't think that's your entire definition, is it?

[Reddzonesports]

What's done is done. Some 2022 cards will still carry value but they are not RC, and there's no way any argument that they are will hold up.

[theshowandme]

Originally Posted by Hardcore

duh..
we are talking about people who just want rookie cards

How about 2022 Topps Chrome auto RC as a more realistic comparison?

That indeed will be a big card

[brewtown107]

Originally Posted by theshowandme

I’m a logooo boiiiiiiii

Originally Posted by theshowandme

This kind of stuff adds nothing to the debate. If you're going to post pure nonsense, why even bother?

[Bcr]

Originally Posted by Reddzonesports

What's done is done. Some 2022 cards will still carry value but they are not RC, and there's no way any argument that they are will hold up.

Can we add this to the list?!

[Shankweather]

Originally Posted by brewtown107

It's the "Bowman's Best are rookie cards" side that is (incorrectly) arguing Occam's razor! Occam's razor says that's a RC.

I'm just putting the Occam's Razor argument to bed where it belongs.

Ok, I misread you. I thought you were genuinely arguing for that card being a rookie card.

[brewtown107]

Originally Posted by Reddzonesports

What's done is done. Some 2022 cards will still carry value but they are not RC, and there's no way any argument that they are will hold up.

In your opinion.

[rfgilles]

Originally Posted by TUAlum96

Oh, I’m up to speed. I was just making a joke regarding the idea that even the element that wasn’t in dispute (the “first card” of the BB disputed rookies) was in dispute. No one is actually arguing about the 2019 Bowman Next Bobby Witt Jr. versus the 2020 Bowman (though I’m a fan of the former).

I’m just one of those people that isn’t taking any of this too seriously.

Oops my bad.

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by Hardcore

duh..
we are talking about people who just want rookie cards

How about 2022 Topps Chrome auto RC as a more realistic comparison?

that would be an insert, as those are not part of the 2022 Topps Chrome Set

[Hardcore]

Originally Posted by Reddzonesports

What's done is done. Some 2022 cards will still carry value but they are not RC, and there's no way any argument that they are will hold up.

Prospect cards like the Wander are missing the Players association logo on the back. But RC cards with logo like the Vaughn and India have the PA logo on back and the RC logo on the front.
Otherwise do we say that all the other prospects, like Witt Jr, Mayer, Davis, Veen, Lawlar, House etc.. are also RCs.... since they are also in this base set...

I know what the answer will be.... fastball down the middle of the plate.... batter up go ahead and hit it....

[rfgilles]

Originally Posted by imbluestreak23

Figured this would be a good tracker showing the manipulation of MLBPA rules to maximize sales of cardboard to make more money (South Park voice)

2008:
Pablo Sandoval - 8//13/2008 - RC logo in 2008 products including Topps Heritage High Number, 2008 Topps Red Hot Rookie program, but ALSO included in 2008 Bowman Draft (after the previous two releases) as a prospect card. Let this example be proof that it is well within Topps and MLBPAs authority and timeline to release RC logo cards as far up as the middle of August during the same year. Humanity is moving forward (mostly), not behind, and thus we would expect these timelines to shrink thus allowing faster turnaround times for RC logo inclusions.

2015:
Carlos Correa - 6/7/15 - RC Logo in 2015 products including Topps Chrome released on 8/3/2015
Francisco Lindor - 6/13/15 - RC Logo in 2015 products including Topps Chrome released on 8/3/2015
Kyle Schwarber - 6/15/15 - RC Logo in 2016 products as hobby poster boy

2016:
Alex Bregman - 7/24/16 - RC Logo in 2017 products as hobby poster boy

2017:
Rafael Devers - 7/23/17 - RC Logo in 2018 products as hobby poster boy

2018:
Ronald Acuna Jr. - 4/20/18 - RC logo in 2018 products including Topps Finest as a mystery redemption released on 6/6/2018 and Topps Series 2 on 6/13/18
Juan soto - 5/20/2018 - RC logo in 2018 products including Topps Archives released 8/13/18

2019:
Fernando Tatis Jr. - 3/28/19 - RC logo in 2019 products
Vladimir Guerrero Jr. 4/24/19 - RC logo in 2019 products including Topps Series 2 released 6/12/19
Yordan Alvarez - 6/9/19 - RC logo in 2020 products as hobby poster boy
Bo Bichette - 7/28/19 - RC logo in 2020 products as hobby poster boy

2021:
Wander Franco - 6/22/21 - RC Logo in 2022 products as hobby poster boy, but true RC released in 2021 BB

How are these manipulations of MLBPA rules for maximizing profits? Not being facetious, just curious.

[imbluestreak23]

Originally Posted by brewtown107

You actually disprove your own point with this post.

It's very clear from that timeline that there is a cutoff point that moves callups into the next years' products. It was in August a million years ago in hobby time, but has consistently been in in June or July since. The bolded sentence is pure fantasy that totally ignores the headwinds the manufacturers have been facing as time has gone on, including a pandemic moving releases back, supply chain and labor issues, and massive increases in production as the hobby has gotten much more popular. All of those factors could very reasonably contribute to an earlier flip date for RC inclusion, compared to years when that was not a factor.

I knew that a RC logo guy would latch on to this. August is the cutoff you say? Then sure, I'll give you that and we can ignore Devers and Bregman. The human race actually HAS gotten worse since 2008 at many things now that I've given it thought. So let's say MLBPA has an arbitrary cutoff sometime in June every year. Explain a couple things for me:
-Kyle Schwarber, why is he a 2016 guy and not a 2015 guy. You mean to tell me he missed the cutoff by 2 days over Lindor?
-Yordan Alvarez, why is his cutoff so much earlier than Lindors just a few years before? Was there something special going on that year? Or was it the RC logo class looked weak and they needed a hobby poster boy?
-Mookie Betts, I didn't go back to 2014, but care to guess what his call up date is? June 28th. He was a rookie in THH, Update, TC Update, and Stadium Club

And just please, explain Pablo Sandoval. Sure, he's called up 2 months later than Wander was throughout their respective cycles. Why oh why was he a RC in 2008 and what possible explanation can explain pushing back the timeline arbitrarily 2 months backwards? And why is it that the MLBPA hasn't set a standard cuttoff time for all to know?

[imbluestreak23]

Originally Posted by rfgilles

How are these manipulations of MLBPA rules for maximizing profits? Not being facetious, just curious.

Not all of them are. There are several examples of notable top prospect call up dates near the deadline. The manipulations are:
-Schwarber (yes he was a big prospect and name in 2015). Missed the cutoff by 2 days apparently when looking at Lindor.
-Bregman - also a big prospect. Again Sandoval got his RC logo after being called up in mid August. Bregman was used to sell flagship S1 in 2017
-Devers- " " for 2018
-Yordan - probably the most egregious carry over in recent memory. June 9th SHOULD NOT be passed the arbitrary cutoff date. There is more than enough time to include him in sets as shown with previous precedents
-Wander - not as egregious as Yordan or Schwarber, but looking at historical precedent, he should have a RC logo in the year of his callup. Mookie in 2014 was called up on 6/28/14. He appears in 4+ products

[imbluestreak23]

Originally Posted by brewtown107

All rules have exceptions eventually. That's been my position from the very start.

Again, the RC logo = RC definition is not my definition. It is the K.I.S.S. definition.

People have cited to the handful of exceptions that exist out of millions of cards produced since 2006, where a player doesn't have a card at all with the RC logo. Those very limited exceptions don't make the RC logo less simple for the vast majority of cards.

Again, because we're talking simple.

Your definition of 1st card sounds simpler, but then I don't think that's your entire definition, is it?

I voted in the poll. You can see where I stand. it's never been for 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th (Josh Hamilton) year cards with a logo.

[brewtown107]

Originally Posted by imbluestreak23

I knew that a RC logo guy would latch on to this. August is the cutoff you say? Then sure, I'll give you that and we can ignore Devers and Bregman. The human race actually HAS gotten worse since 2008 at many things now that I've given it thought. So let's say MLBPA has an arbitrary cutoff sometime in June every year. Explain a couple things for me:
-Kyle Schwarber, why is he a 2016 guy and not a 2015 guy. You mean to tell me he missed the cutoff by 2 days over Lindor?
-Yordan Alvarez, why is his cutoff so much earlier than Lindors just a few years before? Was there something special going on that year? Or was it the RC logo class looked weak and they needed a hobby poster boy?
-Mookie Betts, I didn't go back to 2014, but care to guess what his call up date is? June 28th. He was a rookie in THH, Update, TC Update, and Stadium Club

And just please, explain Pablo Sandoval. Sure, he's called up 2 months later than Wander was throughout their respective cycles. Why oh why was he a RC in 2008 and what possible explanation can explain pushing back the timeline arbitrarily 2 months backwards? And why is it that the MLBPA hasn't set a standard cuttoff time for all to know?

You are proving that comprehension is not really your thing, and that you don't understand anything about what I am arguing or anything about the information you posted, really. So it really doesn't make sense to engage with you further on this. Continue to shout at clouds, though!

[The Accountant]

I'm surprised how much this thread took off. At the end of the day, this card is going to remain popular as there will always be that question attached to it. I'm still going to pay up for 2022 RCs.

[Danderlion]

Yeeeesh. Some of you are spending way too much time and energy in this thread. Why do all of you care so much that someone has a different opinion than you? In everything in life, people have differing opinions. Move on. This is pathetic and has really turned me off to some members on this board. Truthers and Non-believers.