Who's the Greatest NBA player of all time? Michael Jordan Or Lebron

[blackbears86]

Originally Posted by ToppsFB

Jordan has 6 titles and NEVER lost one. LeBron can't say that

Jordan won a college championship which was huge back in the day. Lebron can't do that.

2 and 0 in the Olympics, Jordan actually participated and won the Dunk contest where Lebron has never been involved out of fear of damaging his brand. Lets be honest too, without Jordan the NBA is vastly different today. He saved the league and put it on the world scene.

Then you get into the way Lebron has chosen his career path constantly changing teams to chase a title on super teams. I would have far more respect for him if he stayed with Cleveland all along and had teams form around him.

I'll say Lebron is top 5 all time but for those that think he is better than Jordan. You really gotta get out of your own time and understand the history of the game.

You were good then lost credibility with college, the Olympics and the dunk contest.

[KhalDrogo]

LeBron ever have a commercial like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0AGiq9j_Ak

In 20 years, I'll this is how I'll remember LeBron.

“I think when we all sit back and learn from the situation that happened, understand that what you could tweet or could say (could affect people),” James said. “We all talk about this freedom of speech. Yes, we all do have freedom of speech, but at times there are ramifications for the negative that can happen when you’re not thinking about others, and you’re only thinking about yourself.

“I don’t want to get into a word or sentence feud with Daryl Morey, but I believe he wasn’t educated on the situation at hand, and he spoke, and so many people could have been harmed, not only financially, but physically. Emotionally. Spiritually. So just be careful what we tweet and what we say, and what we do. Even though yes, we do have freedom of speech, but there can be a lot of negative that comes with that too.”

[ToppsFB]

Originally Posted by blackbears86

You were good then lost credibility with college, the Olympics and the dunk contest.

I guess if you don't like facts, that's a reasonable take.

[RogerGodahell]

I'd take Jordan every time over LeBron.

Also, Bird was 6-0 vs MJ in the playoffs. Subtle reminder to those who think MJ was invincible. But that's more credit to Bird than anything. He doesn't have the longevity stats because his career was rather short due to injuries. But i would even take a healthy Bird over LeBron in each of their primes.

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by pingbling23

Lol he’s been top 5 in mvp voting for 14 seasons and will probably be top 5 this year.

Not if this is any sign, he isn't even in the top 10.

[drakehendrix34]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

LeBron ever have a commercial like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0AGiq9j_Ak

In 20 years, I'll this is how I'll remember LeBron.

Mike didn't have a camera in his face 24/7 or social media at his fingertips. He himself has said he wouldn't have survived social media. If you let that factor into the debate (which is outrageous), then you need to talk about MJ being a total POS.

[i4gotmyid]

Originally Posted by ToppsFB

Jordan has 6 titles and NEVER lost one. LeBron can't say that

Jordan won a college championship which was huge back in the day. Lebron can't do that.

2 and 0 in the Olympics, Jordan actually participated and won the Dunk contest where Lebron has never been involved out of fear of damaging his brand. Lets be honest too, without Jordan the NBA is vastly different today. He saved the league and put it on the world scene.

Then you get into the way Lebron has chosen his career path constantly changing teams to chase a title on super teams. I would have far more respect for him if he stayed with Cleveland all along and had teams form around him.

I'll say Lebron is top 5 all time but for those that think he is better than Jordan. You really gotta get out of your own time and understand the history of the game.

Does this include the first 6 years he didn't make it to the finals, 3 of which he didn't get out of the first round? Or do we just gloss over that?

[Qman316]

Jordan and it shouldn’t even be a debate.

[Zedlaw]

Fun question, would I rather have been a Cavs fan with Lebron or Celtics fan with Bird. Nine great years with Bird, instantly a 60 win team for a decade with three titles. Or 11 years with the Cavs, one title and two divorces. So much of basketball is situation, I don’t even know how to tackle these who are better arguments. But I would have loved growing up in Chicago or Boston for MJ and Bird, I’d even take the Bay Area for Curry over being a kid in Cleveland for Lebron. In terms of fandom: Bulls then Celtics, Lakers w/ Magic, Warriors, Lakers w/ Kobe, Cavs.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by drakehendrix34

Mike didn't have a camera in his face 24/7 or social media at his fingertips. He himself has said he wouldn't have survived social media. If you let that factor into the debate (which is outrageous), then you need to talk about MJ being a total POS.

Can you name one stupid thing Mike has done or said during the age of social media? Or does it not count now since he’s not an active player? Even though he’s more culturally relevant today than LeBron will ever be.

[Gary]

Originally Posted by RogerGodahell

I'd take Jordan every time over LeBron.

Also, Bird was 6-0 vs MJ in the playoffs. Subtle reminder to those who think MJ was invincible. But that's more credit to Bird than anything. He doesn't have the longevity stats because his career was rather short due to injuries. But i would even take a healthy Bird over LeBron in each of their primes.

As a life long Celtics fan i agree with prime Bird over any form of lbj,It is worth noting though that Bird had a bit more help than MJ.

Also on the goat,Wilt was the most dominate player ever,Russ was the best winner,Kareem the best career due to longevity.LBJ isn't even a top 5 player,Elgin was better as was Oscar.I can think of at least 10 players i would rather have than LBJ.

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by JaAntetokounmpo

tldr; It's Jordan, but the other real consideration should be Russell.

The reality is it ends up being a fool's errand to even try to answer such a question because basketball is a team sport, and so many factors that are oft ignored don't get acknowledged when answering.

If one absolutely has to provide a response, the answer is, and remains Jordan in my opinion. But my two cents is that the real hesitation in one giving their quick response should be in regard to contemplating Bill Russell. Recency bias, lack of homework, people putting scoring points above team metrics, lack of appreciation for mental fortitude, basketball intangibles and team-focused details (like instead of blocking a shot into the stands, guiding it to a teammate) fogs people's judgment on this.

"I never considered it a great defensive play....until we got the ball" - Bill Russell

There's a lot of wisdom in the above statement that falls on deaf ears of today's players.

There's so much Russell did on the court that would never show up on a stat sheet, except for, oh, 11 rings in 13 years and 8 straight Titles. How many championships did the San Francisco Dons win before Russell got there and won back-to-back? How many did they win after? Rhetorical.

Russell was 21-0 in winner-take all games, and 10-0 in Game 7's. He also absolutely got the best of what many (especially old-timer's) will say was the most dominating man to ever play the sport in Wilt Chamberlain.

He won an NCAA Championship, Gold Medal, and NBA Title all within nearly one single year. The guy just won games, all the time, and the biggest games, so if you choose someone other than Russell, it's understandable, but I sure wouldn't want to be on the other team facing him; he'll make you pay.

Folks should consult Crowley's GOAT: Making the Case and/or other series like it before they decide.

At this point I am going on probabilities, and saying that all things considered, there's a 60% chance (give or take some) that MJ is the GOAT, and about 25% chance it's Russell and 15% chance it's Bron. I don't think it's someone besides these three. But I can be swayed.

Based on advanced metrics available on data from '73 onward, it's either MJ or Bron in terms of peak value, and Bron is way out ahead of the rest in playoff VORP. MJ has a slight lead over Bron in peak Award Share (for their top 5 or 10 seasons). Bron has the 13 All-NBA First Team selections. His 4 NBA Finals MVPs are 2nd only to MJ's 6, and I'm sure that his '11 Finals choke which might have cost him a 5th eats at him a lot; it doesn't warrant calling him "LeChoke" or whatever, particularly how he made up for that with the '16 comeback from 3-1 against a pretty good team. And I have a hard time giving Bron even a 15% chance of GOAT status given his little flopping antics.

The case is stronger for MJ based on the 6 Finals MVPs which are a bigger deal than just the 6 rings because Magic, Kobe, and Tim also have nearly that many rings but not nearly that many Finals MVPs. Those 6 FMVPs might just be the tie-breaker in any argument. (According to Crowley, Russell would take at least 7 of those if they were awarded back then. But, different era....) The edges that Bron has over MJ in career playoff VORP and All-NBA selections are due in major part to longevity differences.

The case for Bron might rest most strongly on his peak value by VORP/BPM-like measures. (Notice who is up there with MJ and Bron in single-season BPM, and early in the usual prime years for players. Given the evolution of minutes-played practices, which is surely an effect of tightening of competition, I don't think anyone's ever going to approach the top VORP marks again.) A timeline adjustment favors Bron, and it also favors Bron (all else being equal) when it comes to difficulty in winning championships as the league develops over time. Just getting to 10 NBA Finals in this day and age is pretty impressive.

As I watched Bron in his '08-09 and '09-10 seasons, I remember being at least as impressed by him as by MJ, although I didn't watch MJ in '87-88 (when he wasn't doing his heroics deep in the playoffs or Finals, whatever his highlight reels, same as with '09 Bron) so . . . .

There's this talk of the All-Time 75 Draft going on, which I haven't looked into yet, but if I'm doing a draft and adjusting for era, I could take any of the three of MJ, Bron or Russell in the top 3 in whatever order, and might just draft Wilt 4th (see Crowley's video for him).

Not sure what factors I might be overlooking, I think I've covered the main ones.

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by daeve

yep, my top 5 hasn't changed since I last did a deep-dive on it over a year ago.

1 Kareem
2 MJ
3 Wilt
4 Lebron
5 Russell

by all means elaborate on your deep dive? I can be swayed.

[imbluestreak23]

I probably would have had a more favorable opinion as Bron exited the league, but the tweets and radicalization of a generation is his legacy.

I probably hated Kobe just as much as the CO incident was peak Kobe hate level. But he matured as a person and actually became likable to the point where you kinda rooted for him despite him playing the villain role.

With Bron', it's just not that. If he were a villain, it's like he's a villain in a rigged game. He never stayed with his team and took his L's to fuel his powers to become great. He just cheated but jumping ship to join more villains, all while telling the public how great he is because of his accomplishments. Throw in the truly villainous nature of how harmful he has been to society especially in the 2nd half of his career and I'd say he has truly robbed any opportunity for his haters to come to his side as the maturation as an adult and humility has been slower than his peers.

I will give him this, in terms of longevity/taking care of his body, there isn't anyone better who has done it. If Jordan had a "LeBron" measuring stick, I have no doubt that the baseball stint wouldn't have happened and he would have stayed in Chicago 1-2 more years just to prove/accumulate what he needed to convince 100% of the public that he is the greatest.

[Onepocketj]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

LeBron ever have a commercial like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0AGiq9j_Ak

In 20 years, I'll this is how I'll remember LeBron.

I prefer his description of the Malcolm X book.

[blackbears86]

Originally Posted by ToppsFB

I guess if you don't like facts, that's a reasonable take.

1. Lebron never played college because the NBA rules changed regarding high school players and he wanted to jump right to the NBA. So this comparison is irrelevant.

2. Lebron is not a great dunker. Why enter the contest? FYI: the dunk contest has been a joke for the last several years. NO big players enter it, and haven't for many years.

3. The olympics were basically a joke for the US when basketball allowed NBA players to participate in 92 and 96. Now? lots more competition from Europe. The comparison here is really lopsided.





No doubt, MJ is the GOAT of BSKB, but when people throw stuff like this out there, it just fuels the Lebron lovers.


The three things above are irrelevant when I'm talking about the GOAT of basketball, which is MJ.

[sonnyday]

Originally Posted by blackbears86

1. Lebron never played college because the NBA rules changed regarding high school players and he wanted to jump right to the NBA. So this comparison is irrelevant.

2. Lebron is not a great dunker. Why enter the contest? FYI: the dunk contest has been a joke for the last several years. NO big players enter it, and haven't for many years.

3. The olympics were basically a joke for the US when basketball allowed NBA players to participate in 92 and 96. Now? lots more competition from Europe. The comparison here is really lopsided.





No doubt, MJ is the GOAT of BSKB, but when people throw stuff like this out there, it just fuels the Lebron lovers.


The three things above are irrelevant when I'm talking about the GOAT of basketball, which is MJ.

Lebron not a great dunker? He does some sick stuff above the rim.

[6celtics33]

Michael obviously

I’ll take a shot at defending Lebron though

The talk about longevity gets misconstrued as an insult but when you are on lists as the youngest player to ever…

As well as the oldest player to ever…

That says you’ve been doing great things for a long freaking time. And nobody else in our lifetime will ever accumulate 30,000-10,000,10,000 and he may put up 40,000 points instead of the 30

These two players being compared reminds me of Willie mays and hank Aaron. Both great. Willie or Michael is a little better but Lebron like hank will end up with better career numbers.

How much the longevity matters is up to each individual person. Do you want Jordan’s 11 full seasons with the bulls or Lebron’s 20 year career?

I’d take Jordan but I understand if you take Lebron and get 9 more years.

But Lebron is polarizing. He will look a lot better on paper to the future than to people who have watched his entire career. That’s why a lot of people have him at 2, some at 1, and some have him as low as 8-10. It depends how much weight you give the negative stuff because make no mistake about it there has been some.

[jcmel323]

MJ was the last one called yesterday and the only one who was in the middle.
Got easily the loudest cheer at halftime... in front on a cleveland crowd.

The Goat

[pingbling23]

Originally Posted by GOATcards

Not if this is any sign, he isn't even in the top 10.

since you dont like the team record being a factor in the mvp race. going by stats, do you think lebron is outside the top 10? team record is killing his mvp rating, thanks injuries. hes a half a point outside of the scoring leader. if he somehow gets the scoring title and has a top 5 per or whatever advanced stat you want to use, i wonder if that would get him in top 5 of voting? i doubt it happens, lakers will have to play their tails off to get into the 7 or 8 seed now ad is done for a while.

[pingbling23]

love these threads every few months. literally no one makes a case that lebron is the goat but the usual people always prop their hate that there is so many people trying to put lebron over jordan lol.

[wigglestrue]

Originally Posted by GOATcards

Folks should consult Crowley's GOAT: Making the Case and/or other series like it before they decide.

At this point I am going on probabilities, and saying that all things considered, there's a 60% chance (give or take some) that MJ is the GOAT, and about 25% chance it's Russell and 15% chance it's Bron. I don't think it's someone besides these three. But I can be swayed.

Based on advanced metrics available on data from '73 onward, it's either MJ or Bron in terms of peak value, and Bron is way out ahead of the rest in playoff VORP. MJ has a slight lead over Bron in peak Award Share (for their top 5 or 10 seasons). Bron has the 13 All-NBA First Team selections. His 4 NBA Finals MVPs are 2nd only to MJ's 6, and I'm sure that his '11 Finals choke which might have cost him a 5th eats at him a lot; it doesn't warrant calling him "LeChoke" or whatever, particularly how he made up for that with the '16 comeback from 3-1 against a pretty good team. And I have a hard time giving Bron even a 15% chance of GOAT status given his little flopping antics.

The case is stronger for MJ based on the 6 Finals MVPs which are a bigger deal than just the 6 rings because Magic, Kobe, and Tim also have nearly that many rings but not nearly that many Finals MVPs. Those 6 FMVPs might just be the tie-breaker in any argument. (According to Crowley, Russell would take at least 7 of those if they were awarded back then. But, different era....) The edges that Bron has over MJ in career playoff VORP and All-NBA selections are due in major part to longevity differences.

The case for Bron might rest most strongly on his peak value by VORP/BPM-like measures. (Notice who is up there with MJ and Bron in single-season BPM, and early in the usual prime years for players. Given the evolution of minutes-played practices, which is surely an effect of tightening of competition, I don't think anyone's ever going to approach the top VORP marks again.) A timeline adjustment favors Bron, and it also favors Bron (all else being equal) when it comes to difficulty in winning championships as the league develops over time. Just getting to 10 NBA Finals in this day and age is pretty impressive.

As I watched Bron in his '08-09 and '09-10 seasons, I remember being at least as impressed by him as by MJ, although I didn't watch MJ in '87-88 (when he wasn't doing his heroics deep in the playoffs or Finals, whatever his highlight reels, same as with '09 Bron) so . . . .

There's this talk of the All-Time 75 Draft going on, which I haven't looked into yet, but if I'm doing a draft and adjusting for era, I could take any of the three of MJ, Bron or Russell in the top 3 in whatever order, and might just draft Wilt 4th (see Crowley's video for him).

Not sure what factors I might be overlooking, I think I've covered the main ones.

You are doing the paper matchup thing.

I am prescribing you 2.5 hours of watching Jordan footage.

"A timeline adjustment favors Bron, and it also favors Bron (all else being equal) when it comes to difficulty in winning championships as the league develops over time. Just getting to 10 NBA Finals in this day and age is pretty impressive."

The word "develops" is neutral. But some things develop in a worse, not better, direction. You are assuming the sport has improved. You are assuming the game is harder to dominate now. You would be wrong. The three point shooting percentages have improved. Dribbling has advanced...to laughable new forms of legal travelling. Everything else about the sport is weaker than it was in Jordan's era.

[jplarson]

His Airness. LeBron is great, greater than most. Not the greatest.

[Zedlaw]

Yeah, Lebron's counting stats are going to be nuts. I always figured Kareem's pts scored was Nolan Ryan's Ks. Untouchable, who was going to play that long and that well to challenge those? Lebron has desensitized us to this, breaking this record is a huge deal. The limelight drove Jordan to retirement twice. Lebron has been the face of basketball for twenty years, he's simply the story whether he's in high school or 9th place in the West. That light is bright. I don't really like Lebron but the NBA has been way better with him here. The high points of the NBA are Kareem, DrJ/NBA, Bird/Magic, Jordan/Utah, Kobe/Shaq/AI, Lebron/Miami & Curry/73

[drakehendrix34]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Can you name one stupid thing Mike has done or said during the age of social media? Or does it not count now since he’s not an active player? Even though he’s more culturally relevant today than LeBron will ever be.

Post career absolutely isn't the same lol. Does anyone care what Bonds or Joe Montana say on social media? His shoes will and brand will outlive LeBron's forever, but don't act like MJ is in the limelight anywhere near LeBron. LeBron is on every news channel every hour. And MJ doesn't need to defend his money any more. He went against the black community with his "republicans buy sneakers too" comment, so can't guarantee he wouldn't have said anything equally foolish.