Who's the Greatest NBA player of all time? Michael Jordan Or Lebron

[RogerGodahell]

double post

[wigglestrue]

Originally Posted by i4gotmyid

Um...did we watch the same game growing up? If you beat your "aggressive defender" you had an open midrange shot, or you just had to run was a pick and roll and someone could score on either matchup. Even the triangle made a mid-range mismatch where someone could score. Now almost everyone can switch pretty evenly and help defense comes from different angles instead of the closest guy, even the spacing between the non-ball defender and the lane presents more obstacles than just a lumbering center.

Speaking of dominant centers, because of the 3 point shot (nerd efficiency?), now centers have to be mobile and switch and cover little guys, could you imagine Mark Eaton or Mutombo on the perimeter? They would get eaten up, hence the quick demise of Roy Hibbert.

Traveling/offensive fouls are my pet peeve, but that was a result of smarter players exploiting the poorly written definition of the rules (and ignoring the spirit of the rule), hence the rule changes in 2019 on traveling and last year on the offensive foul so I hope that does clean it up (it seems like it has a bit).

As far as an "easier" game...I'll use my sonics as an example, a team that went to the finals in 1996 (and had a nice mix of modern offense), you had a bench rotation of Askew, Nate, the other Ervin Johnson, Brickowski (brick house) and filler. When those guys came into the game, it was like playing 4 V 5 on offense, so it looked like great D on the part of the other team, but I'm pretty sure it was more a result of putting a 0 on the floor that made it a "tougher" game

Help defenders are quicker to catch up to you, yes, and...god help them if they so much as breathe on you the wrong way when they do.

It's a lot easier to beat a "mobile center" off the dribble than to drive against a stationary giant for a layup.

If the NBA installs a 4 point line and the key to being a winning center on defense becomes the ability to sprint around the perimeter, and the best centers in the game are basically just wiry 6'8" small forwards, then no, I wouldn't be able to imagine Eaton or Mutombo doing that, but yes, the game itself would have become much easier, much softer.

I've noticed approximately zero extra enforcement of travelling the last two years. Somebody on a team still travels on 100% of possessions, no exaggeration. It's sickening, and it's the equivalent of MLB legalizing steroids. In 5-10 years, maybe dribbling won't even be required, players will just run with the ball tucked in their arms like a football. The game would be even easier then, right?

Bad players can make mediocre players look great, yes. Imagine if every team's starting lineup were more or less the equivalent of Askew, Nate, Johnson, and Brickowski, and [insert filler]. What would their averages be? How would their VORP look compared to past greats?

[Basketball B]

A couple things.
Kobe Bryant isn't even in the Top 6 Lakers of all time (he'd be behind Magic, Kareem, Elgin, Wilt, Shaq, and West; and I'd put Mikan on that list, but...I think they were still using peach baskets at that time, so I'll give Kobe the nod over the first Laker great).

I say Lebron is the GOAT and I've watched them both since they were rookies. But for anybody that doesn't think it's Lebron, let me ask you this. He's still being productive at this age, so...what age was MJ when he started sucking? Shouldn't that end the debate? I mean, let's just say Lebron is 58 years old, and scoring 18 points a game and getting 10 boards a game. We'd all admit -- this is some insane freak of nature (the way people do about Tom Brady).

Here's another thing I always say in this debate. You put Lebron on those Bulls teams instead of Jordan, they still win all those rings. You put Jordan on that Cleveland team, they DO NOT win the championship.

So, what does that tell ya?

[drobfan8]

Originally Posted by Basketball B

A couple things.
Kobe Bryant isn't even in the Top 6 Lakers of all time (he'd be behind Magic, Kareem, Elgin, Wilt, Shaq, and West; and I'd put Mikan on that list, but...I think they were still using peach baskets at that time, so I'll give Kobe the nod over the first Laker great).

I say Lebron is the GOAT and I've watched them both since they were rookies. But for anybody that doesn't think it's Lebron, let me ask you this. He's still being productive at this age, so...what age was MJ when he started sucking? Shouldn't that end the debate? I mean, let's just say Lebron is 58 years old, and scoring 18 points a game and getting 10 boards a game. We'd all admit -- this is some insane freak of nature (the way people do about Tom Brady).

Here's another thing I always say in this debate. You put Lebron on those Bulls teams instead of Jordan, they still win all those rings. You put Jordan on that Cleveland team, they DO NOT win the championship.

So, what does that tell ya?

Clearly this is Science.

Case closed people. This guy used a formula that proves it all.

Suck it Jordan and his fanatics that just want to keep pumping their MJ Bass.

[Hellcat]

Beat it clown Kobe is easily the greatest Laker. Take your Kobe hate somewhere else. Sorry he beat your team year after year. Did you see the 2 million dollar Kobe sale?! That’s all you need to know. None of the other Laker greats would bring that. Oh yeah for good measure Magic called Kobe the greatest Laker ever. Now run along.

[Basketball B]

I'm actually a Laker fan, goofball!
And of course Magic is going to say that. How's it going to look if he says he's the best Laker of all time????

Kobe didn't make the players around him better. Magic (and Jordan), did.
Kobe merely yelled at the players around him (when he wasn't raping women).

[Basketball B]

But back to the Lebron/Jordan debate....

Here is another reason why you have to consider the LENGTH of a career. I'll give you two examples. If you didn't, MIKE TYSON is the greatest heavyweight boxer in the history of the sport. He won the championship at the youngest age, and he beat EVERYONE in his division, in a matter of minutes or less, for a few years.
But....Tyson isn't even in talks of the Top 5 heavyweights. He'd never make a mention in the barbershop scene in Coming to America 3.

Another athlete -- WES UNSELD. He was a center that won Rookie of the Year and MVP in the same year!! Think about that. Only Wilt Chamberlain has done that. But...why does nobody talk about Wes as one of the Top 5 centers of all time?
It's because we look at their entire career.

Soooo....in conclusion (and this is science)....if Lebron had retired after the same length of a career as Jordan, that makes the debate interesting. Since he, at his age, was able to go the Lakers and win a championship (with only A.D.)....and at his age -- that ends the debate for me.

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by Basketball B

Soooo....in conclusion (and this is science)....if Lebron had retired after the same length of a career as Jordan, that makes the debate interesting. Since he, at his age, was able to go the Lakers and win a championship (with only A.D.)....and at his age -- that ends the debate for me.

Not really, less flopping I guess?

[rhigh2390]

Originally Posted by Basketball B

But back to the Lebron/Jordan debate....

Here is another reason why you have to consider the LENGTH of a career. I'll give you two examples. If you didn't, MIKE TYSON is the greatest heavyweight boxer in the history of the sport. He won the championship at the youngest age, and he beat EVERYONE in his division, in a matter of minutes or less, for a few years.
But....Tyson isn't even in talks of the Top 5 heavyweights. He'd never make a mention in the barbershop scene in Coming to America 3.

Another athlete -- WES UNSELD. He was a center that won Rookie of the Year and MVP in the same year!! Think about that. Only Wilt Chamberlain has done that. But...why does nobody talk about Wes as one of the Top 5 centers of all time?
It's because we look at their entire career.

Soooo....in conclusion (and this is science)....if Lebron had retired after the same length of a career as Jordan, that makes the debate interesting. Since he, at his age, was able to go the Lakers and win a championship (with only A.D.)....and at his age -- that ends the debate for me.

Your "science" arguments are fascinating.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Basketball B

But back to the Lebron/Jordan debate....

Here is another reason why you have to consider the LENGTH of a career. I'll give you two examples. If you didn't, MIKE TYSON is the greatest heavyweight boxer in the history of the sport. He won the championship at the youngest age, and he beat EVERYONE in his division, in a matter of minutes or less, for a few years.
But....Tyson isn't even in talks of the Top 5 heavyweights. He'd never make a mention in the barbershop scene in Coming to America 3.

Another athlete -- WES UNSELD. He was a center that won Rookie of the Year and MVP in the same year!! Think about that. Only Wilt Chamberlain has done that. But...why does nobody talk about Wes as one of the Top 5 centers of all time?
It's because we look at their entire career.

Soooo....in conclusion (and this is science)....if Lebron had retired after the same length of a career as Jordan, that makes the debate interesting. Since he, at his age, was able to go the Lakers and win a championship (with only A.D.)....and at his age -- that ends the debate for me.

Because Wes Unseld didn't deserve to win the MVP? Because Wes Unseld never made another 1st team all NBA? Take your pick.

Also Wilt is the GOAT, he holds 72 NBA records. I respect those that say Jordan is GOAT, because there is a case. LeBron is a distant 3rd or 4th.

Kobe is a top 3 Laker. Magic then either Kobe or West.

[Dame]

Originally Posted by Basketball B

A couple things.
Kobe Bryant isn't even in the Top 6 Lakers of all time (he'd be behind Magic, Kareem, Elgin, Wilt, Shaq, and West; and I'd put Mikan on that list, but...I think they were still using peach baskets at that time, so I'll give Kobe the nod over the first Laker great).

So, what does that tell ya?

[Randallk34]

I don't know what's worse

The people that start these dumb threads

or the idiots that respond to them

[i4gotmyid]

Originally Posted by Randallk34

I don't know what's worse

The people that start these dumb threads

or the idiots that respond to them

I enjoy these threads more than:

"tell me how much this card is worth"
"pump up player x"
"sky is falling"
"to the moon"

[GOATMJ]

Originally Posted by Basketball B

A couple things.
Kobe Bryant isn't even in the Top 6 Lakers of all time (he'd be behind Magic, Kareem, Elgin, Wilt, Shaq, and West; and I'd put Mikan on that list, but...I think they were still using peach baskets at that time, so I'll give Kobe the nod over the first Laker great).

I say Lebron is the GOAT and I've watched them both since they were rookies. But for anybody that doesn't think it's Lebron, let me ask you this. He's still being productive at this age, so...what age was MJ when he started sucking? Shouldn't that end the debate? I mean, let's just say Lebron is 58 years old, and scoring 18 points a game and getting 10 boards a game. We'd all admit -- this is some insane freak of nature (the way people do about Tom Brady).

Here's another thing I always say in this debate. You put Lebron on those Bulls teams instead of Jordan, they still win all those rings. You put Jordan on that Cleveland team, they DO NOT win the championship.

So, what does that tell ya?

Longevity doesn't make you the GOAT. It helps Lebron's case but its not the end of the discussion. Jordan's PEAK was absolutely higher and it's not like that was short either.

Who is more impressive? The guy who achieved WAY more in 13 seasons? Or the guy who is still behind, playing for almost 20 years now? The guy who was dominant in both offense AND defense that never lost more than 3 games in a row for 7 years straight? Or the guy who jumped around building superteams to only lose 6 Championships along the way.

MJ is the only guy in the history of basketball to win MVP, Scoring Title, 1st Team All Defensive, NBA Championship, Finals MVP in the same year. And he did it 4 times.

MJ holds the record for most Championship MVP's in ALL National Team Sports History.

MJ (and his Bulls) are the only ones to win TWO 3-Peats ever.

The list goes on and on. There's a reason why all the polls and vast majority of the world agrees that MJ is the GOAT.


And you brought up switching MJ and Lebron. Who says Lebron would've won two 3-peats with the Bulls? How do you know that? He melted down on many occasions resulting in him losing. Do you know how difficult it is to win a 3 peat? Let alone TWICE?

And who says MJ couldn't have done better than LBJ in Cleveland, Miami or LA? We saw how MJ was with his teammates. He was brutal. He made sure EVERYONE gave it their best. Winning at all costs. The 4 years when Lebron was in Maimi as the big 3. I think MJ would've won at least 3 if not all 4 of those titles. Lebron only won 2.

These are all hypotheticals so its not even worth talking about honestly. No one really knows and never will. Let's just look at FACTS and what actually HAPPENED.

MJ >>>>>>> Lebron

[pcptrade]

Just when I thought BO was getting boring, this novel and unique thread/topic pops up

Speaking of peak...

[marl1220]

Originally Posted by Randallk34

I don't know what's worse

The people that start these dumb threads

or the idiots that respond to them

Gotta love the self important ones that end their posts with "end of thread."

Well, since you say so....

[blockedbyjames]

Bron is the greatest explosive athlete over the course of a career in American history. That doesn't answer the op. Jordan was the greatest basketball player at his peak. That doesn't answer the op either.

[bpc3qh]

Originally Posted by RogerGodahell

I'd like to see what that chart looked like 15-20 years before that. You'd see a couple dots outside the 3pt line lol.

Well, yeah...the shot didn't exist until the 79-80 season. As for the question, it's MJ, and it'll always be MJ. The combination of what he did on and off the Court means he can't be dislodged. I'm not sure I'd even put LeBron ahead of Kareem or Russell; he's probably in the same group as Magic and Larry, ahead of the tier that includes Duncan/Wilt/Kobe/Hakeem.

[daeve]

Originally Posted by GOATcards

by all means elaborate on your deep dive? I can be swayed.

I didn't save all my points in one nice little neat location unfortunately

When I have some more time I will try to find/pull them all and elaborate though

I can say for just a few bullet points on the 'why' - it's gotta come down to how much you value peak/longevity/overall domination / overall 'unstoppability' factor. I think there's some kind of formula in there but it'd take a while to fully figure out and there'd still be some subjectivity because of the massive difference in eras/stats available, etc.

Overall though, I think Kareem offers the greatest combo of those factors I mentioned. With MJ next, and maybe if he had more longevity I can see an argument for him overtaking KAJ. I think these are definitely the top two though.

Next tier with Wilt and Lebron is interesting... Wilt definitely had some holes in his game, but will likely stand the test of time as the true apex athlete. Probably the one guy I'd most want to see in the context of the modern era. Lebron may be #2 all-time in 'apex athlete' for me, not quite as otherworldly as Wilt in measurables but is certainly proving his mettle with his longevity. A little similar to my tier 1 argument with KAJ/MJ.

Next in a tier of his own is Russell, mostly because I think you can draw a definite marker that he doesn't have the offensive ability of the first 4, but will probably never be surpassed as a defender/winner.

[jr24ai3]

Originally Posted by Basketball B

A couple things.
Kobe Bryant isn't even in the Top 6 Lakers of all time (he'd be behind Magic, Kareem, Elgin, Wilt, Shaq, and West; and I'd put Mikan on that list, but...I think they were still using peach baskets at that time, so I'll give Kobe the nod over the first Laker great).

I say Lebron is the GOAT and I've watched them both since they were rookies. But for anybody that doesn't think it's Lebron, let me ask you this. He's still being productive at this age, so...what age was MJ when he started sucking? Shouldn't that end the debate? I mean, let's just say Lebron is 58 years old, and scoring 18 points a game and getting 10 boards a game. We'd all admit -- this is some insane freak of nature (the way people do about Tom Brady).

Here's another thing I always say in this debate. You put Lebron on those Bulls teams instead of Jordan, they still win all those rings. You put Jordan on that Cleveland team, they DO NOT win the championship.

So, what does that tell ya?

Jordan had a few game winners/clutch shots in the final 30 seconds of some finals games. If LeBron is on the Bulls instead of Jordan, who is making those shots? Lebron is something like 1-11 in the final minute of a finals game when trailing with a chance to tie/take the lead. His only make was a layup with around 55 seconds left. LeBron has never shown he can make the clutch shot in the finals.

That being said, LeBron is still top 3 or 4 all time. Just not the greatest.

[i4gotmyid]

Originally Posted by jr24ai3

Jordan had a few game winners/clutch shots in the final 30 seconds of some finals games. If LeBron is on the Bulls instead of Jordan, who is making those shots? Lebron is something like 1-11 in the final minute of a finals game when trailing with a chance to tie/take the lead. His only make was a layup with around 55 seconds left. LeBron has never shown he can make the clutch shot in the finals.

That being said, LeBron is still top 3 or 4 all time. Just not the greatest.

Doesnt lebron have almost 100 game tying/go ahead shots made? And I thought he was 1st in playoff buzzer beaters...but Jordan is still the best to me at it (in my opinion, no stats to back it up, just what I remember)

[Kobefan]

Originally Posted by Basketball B

I'm actually a Laker fan, goofball!
And of course Magic is going to say that. How's it going to look if he says he's the best Laker of all time????

Kobe didn't make the players around him better. Magic (and Jordan), did.
Kobe merely yelled at the players around him (when he wasn't raping women).

Obviously a Clippers fan. It would be ridiculous to take your statement seriously, when you list Kobe that low in the Lakers all-time list. Even I though I dislike Lebron, I would at least acknowledge that's he's a top 10 player. Your statement's absurdity is akin to saying Lebron is not even a top 20 player.

[Legends82]

Originally Posted by Basketball B

I say Lebron is the GOAT and I've watched them both since they were rookies. But for anybody that doesn't think it's Lebron, let me ask you this. He's still being productive at this age, so...what age was MJ when he started sucking? Shouldn't that end the debate? I mean, let's just say Lebron is 58 years old, and scoring 18 points a game and getting 10 boards a game. We'd all admit -- this is some insane freak of nature (the way people do about Tom Brady).

What age was MJ when he started sucking? Well first of all Lebron is currently 37 and MJ was retired for 3 straight seasons from age 35-37 before coming out of retirement to join the Wizards at age 38. Prior to this his last season with the Bulls he finished with his 2nd 3-peat and lead the league in points per game that year. In fact, MJ has lead the league in points per game in 10 seasons during his career where as Lebron has only done it once in 07/08 (30.0 avg). His highest was 31.4 still not even close to Jordan’s best two seasons of 37.1 and 35.0.
You don’t think Lebron would’ve been rusty upon his return had he taken a 3 year break from the NBA?

[i4gotmyid]

Originally Posted by Legends82

What age was MJ when he started sucking? Well first of all Lebron is currently 37 and MJ was retired for 3 straight seasons from age 35-37 before coming out of retirement to join the Wizards at age 38. Prior to this his last season with the Bulls he finished with his 2nd 3-peat and lead the league in points per game that year. In fact, MJ has lead the league in points per game in 10 seasons during his career where as Lebron has only done it once in 07/08 (30.0 avg). Not even close to Jordan’s best two seasons of 37.1 and 35.0.
You don’t think Lebron would’ve been rusty upon his return had he taken a 3 year break from the NBA?

Lebron would have been crucified daily on every media platform for all three years if he left...imagine how many threads would be started on BO...rust would be the least of the issues...

[wigglestrue]

Originally Posted by i4gotmyid

Lebron would have been crucified daily on every media platform for all three years if he left...imagine how many threads would be started on BO...rust would be the least of the issues...

1) None of these players really care about message boards and randos on social media.

2) Depending on the excuse he gave, the mainstream media and most social media bluechecks would bend over backwards to PRAISE him for taking a break. Hell, he might win Athlete of the Year for quitting, ahem.

3) Once again, people are underestimating the intensity of media coverage and public gossip from 30 years ago. Folks, the world wasn't all that different. ESPN and CNN were 24-hour channels with a rapid news cycle that had to be replenished with new angles every day, just like now. Sports radio existed just like it does now, but it was even more important as it was the hour-by-hour equivalent of today's social media hot take machine. People actually talked to each other in person, in groups, instead of isolating themselves on their phones and interacting with a digital society, and then the people who talked to each other in person would talk to other people in person later that day, and that's how rumors and takes would exponentially spread and go viral, just like now, except a bit slower. But another difference is that the impression those rumors and takes made would STICK more, meaning, attention spans weren't goldfish-sized, people would viscerally remember stuff they heard and talked about for a long time, instead of forgetting what the latest buzz was last week or yesterday. The idea that The Internet Is Forever is deceptive, because the information may be permanently there, but people's focus and curiosity and recall isn't, so most of that permanent information goes unnoticed, unremembered. And all people remain aware of is whatever narrative the mainstream media keeps pushing, which again has been and will be reverently PRO-LEBRON.