Elephant in the room

[Asian62150]

Originally Posted by 88horsepower

Calling himself "King James" from a young age tells you something about a person. Then "The Decision" happens and he's once again acting like he's the greatest thing we should all care about. Jumping team to to team to win titles and act as the general manager for each and every team he plays for, fishing for talent so he can win more titles. It's all a bad look for LeBron. Don't even get me started on the flopping.

I'd much rather collect someone with humility who won their titles by leading a singular team to multiple titles. Someone like Tim Duncan, who might be that generations most understated superstar who easily ranks among the greatest to ever play the game.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with this perspective. LeBron has shown himself to be narcissistic. The King James moniker and The Decision are all clear evidences (to be fair, he did apologize for The Decision). He flops, he whines, he creates his own team, etc...it's all true.

But, for a guy that has never gotten in trouble with the law, does a ton for the community, and is active for a lot of social justice issues, and is pretty much beloved by all of his teammates, LeBron sure gets a ton of hate.

Guys like Kobe/Ben Roethlisberger don't have nearly the same vitriol even though they've been accused of some pretty sinister things. And more than a few of Kobe's teammates have said he wasn't the easiest guy to get along with. Why these guys get a pass while LeBron gets a lot of flak doesn't make a lot of sense to me. He was in position to chose his teammates. Which one of us wouldn't do that if we could? Ppl complain about athletes making all this money. LeBron took less money to work with his friends. For as good as he's been, he's rarely had the highest salary amongst NBA players.

LeBron isn't perfect and the narcissism does him no favors. I don't agree with him on everything (the China thing was dumb---he was obviously thinking with his pocketbook in mind). But to do what he's done while being a good, upstanding citizen is incredibly impressive. I mean, he almost lead the league in scoring as a 37 year old. And if he stays healthy, he'll break the scoring record. Whether it takes you 10 years or 100 years to do it----if you're the guy who scores the most points in NBA history, good for you. That is an incredible feat.

[SupermanBrandon]

Originally Posted by TSonn

Did LeBron make the comments on Morey/China because he supports fascism or did he make a bad decision to speak up (when asked) about something he didn't quite know much about?

Serious question. What ties does LeBron have to China?

As in China...the place that makes his Nike clothing lines, shoes etc. Where Nike gets the products that then pay LBJ $40-50 Million a year for the past 2 decades? Not to mention his overall brand in the China marketplace. To say he has some ties to China is a GIANT understatement.

[Tim]

Originally Posted by TSonn

Did LeBron make a bad decision to speak up (when asked) about something he didn't quite know much about?

lol - that's literally everything he says on social media, although most of the time he does it without being asked.

[Marshall524]

Originally Posted by Tim

lol - that's literally everything he says on social media, although most of the time he does it without being asked.

The 'You're Next!' tweet was unbelievable lmao

https://www.foxnews.com/media/lebron...ure-next-tweet

[SupermanBrandon]

Originally Posted by Tim

lol - that's literally everything he says on social media, although most of the time he does it without being asked.

Wait until he retires and becomes further distanced from the daily sports conversation. He's said some stupid things, but we've not seen anything yet!

[PokeyAndG]

Originally Posted by Asian62150

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with this perspective. LeBron has shown himself to be narcissistic. The King James moniker and The Decision are all clear evidences (to be fair, he did apologize for The Decision). He flops, he whines, he creates his own team, etc...it's all true.

But, for a guy that has never gotten in trouble with the law, does a ton for the community, and is active for a lot of social justice issues, and is pretty much beloved by all of his teammates, LeBron sure gets a ton of hate.

Guys like Kobe/Ben Roethlisberger don't have nearly the same vitriol even though they've been accused of some pretty sinister things. And more than a few of Kobe's teammates have said he wasn't the easiest guy to get along with. Why these guys get a pass while LeBron gets a lot of flak doesn't make a lot of sense to me. He was in position to chose his teammates. Which one of us wouldn't do that if we could? Ppl complain about athletes making all this money. LeBron took less money to work with his friends. For as good as he's been, he's rarely had the highest salary amongst NBA players.

LeBron isn't perfect and the narcissism does him no favors. I don't agree with him on everything (the China thing was dumb---he was obviously thinking with his pocketbook in mind). But to do what he's done while being a good, upstanding citizen is incredibly impressive. I mean, he almost lead the league in scoring as a 37 year old. And if he stays healthy, he'll break the scoring record. Whether it takes you 10 years or 100 years to do it----if you're the guy who scores the most points in NBA history, good for you. That is an incredible feat.

Three words for you: Black Lives Matter. With these three words, i think you can understand how he has alienated a huge percentage of his fan base. Jordan and Kobe were smart enough not to get caught up in politics.

[GOATcards]

Just seeing this thread now. I think I'm a pretty solid hold on this Bron, I like the photo and simplicity of design, and there's all of maybe 200 #PM21s graded by PSA and BGS:


I'd say he's a solid top-3 player in NBA history, can't quite put him at or ahead of Russell or MJ, don't think I could put him below anyone else. 4 Finals MVPs says plenty right there, 13 All-NBA first teams, all-time VORP leader by almost mile, and on and on.

All of that is consistent with saying that there was a peak in Bron prices which compounded upon the general blue-chip market run-up during the first year of COVID-19 (remember that?), and that Bron peak in itself was associated with his having just won his 4th ring and then looking like a solid front-runner for a 5th, right at the time that the overall market peaked. And from that particular run-up, it's been a marked decline in a whole lotta stuff Bron. And yet I hold.

[hermanotarjeta]

Every NBA star does charity work and donates money to good causes - it’s not a reason to buy a player’s cards. Whether those benevolent activities come straight from the player’s heart, we will never know. All superstars have publicists and PR guys who guide the players to make them “look good.” So the “good human” argument doesn’t work for Lebron or any other player for that matter. There are major tax benefits to donations and teams also strongly encourage players to get involved with the community, as it obviously helps business.

Bron supporters still don’t understand, like Bron himself, that he doesn’t get it - maybe like attracts like. Everyone else can see this clear as day - megalomaniac who refuses to admit he is a megalomaniac- the worst kind of persona. Entitled and self-centered, certainly the king of his “me” generation.

[gameissued]

Pretty sad a lot of the LeBron hate stems from the black/white/Dem/Rep divide. He could just "shut up and dribble" or be like MJ and just stay out of it. Say things like "Republicans buy sneakers too!" But that's not him. Well.. I guess a thread titled "Elephant in the room" is right on.

[baseballfn1979]

Originally Posted by gameissued

Pretty sad a lot of the LeBron hate stems from the black/white/Dem/Rep divide. He could just "shut up and dribble" or be like MJ and just stay out of it. Say things like "Republicans buy sneakers too!" But that's not him. Well.. I guess a thread titled "Elephant in the room" is right on.

So true ! And I have to say as a more conservative type myself I never let my personal beliefs or presuppositions get in the way of who I think is the best player of all time . Republican for Lebron as nba goat ! I will lead the charge !

[blackbears86]

Originally Posted by PokeyAndG

Three words for you: Black Lives Matter. With these three words, i think you can understand how he has alienated a huge percentage of his fan base. Jordan and Kobe were smart enough not to get caught up in politics.

This is a tough one.


Stay out of things and protect your brand because no one knows where you stand and make bank or try to make a change for a better world by choosing a "side" but then you alienate people.



And you say he's alienated a huge percentage of his fan base. This has been proven to be false. He is by far the most popular NBA athlete and it's not even close.

[blackbears86]

Originally Posted by Asian62150

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with this perspective. LeBron has shown himself to be narcissistic. The King James moniker and The Decision are all clear evidences (to be fair, he did apologize for The Decision). He flops, he whines, he creates his own team, etc...it's all true.

But, for a guy that has never gotten in trouble with the law, does a ton for the community, and is active for a lot of social justice issues, and is pretty much beloved by all of his teammates, LeBron sure gets a ton of hate.

Guys like Kobe/Ben Roethlisberger don't have nearly the same vitriol even though they've been accused of some pretty sinister things. And more than a few of Kobe's teammates have said he wasn't the easiest guy to get along with. Why these guys get a pass while LeBron gets a lot of flak doesn't make a lot of sense to me. He was in position to chose his teammates. Which one of us wouldn't do that if we could? Ppl complain about athletes making all this money. LeBron took less money to work with his friends. For as good as he's been, he's rarely had the highest salary amongst NBA players.

LeBron isn't perfect and the narcissism does him no favors. I don't agree with him on everything (the China thing was dumb---he was obviously thinking with his pocketbook in mind). But to do what he's done while being a good, upstanding citizen is incredibly impressive. I mean, he almost lead the league in scoring as a 37 year old. And if he stays healthy, he'll break the scoring record. Whether it takes you 10 years or 100 years to do it----if you're the guy who scores the most points in NBA history, good for you. That is an incredible feat.

Great take.



Generational athlete, will be talked about for many years after he's done in the NBA.

[Asian62150]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

Every NBA star does charity work and donates money to good causes - it’s not a reason to buy a player’s cards. Whether those benevolent activities come straight from the player’s heart, we will never know. All superstars have publicists and PR guys who guide the players to make them “look good.” So the “good human” argument doesn’t work for Lebron or any other player for that matter. There are major tax benefits to donations and teams also strongly encourage players to get involved with the community, as it obviously helps business.

Bron supporters still don’t understand, like Bron himself, that he doesn’t get it - maybe like attracts like. Everyone else can see this clear as day - megalomaniac who refuses to admit he is a megalomaniac- the worst kind of persona. Entitled and self-centered, certainly the king of his “me” generation.

You're right---the charity stuff can be faked. No one knows for sure. The PR spin game is powerful.

But my question is why are guys like Kobe/Big Ben (accused of serious crimes) not vilified/accusations forgotten/treated like heroes but LeBron is treated like a guilty criminal even though he's never been accused of committing any crimes? You want to talk PR making athletes look good? Kobe and Big Ben's PR teams did some pretty incredible work to spin their narratives after being accused of rape.

And Kobe was also accused of being a horrible teammate that no one wanted to be around/hang out with. Most/all of LeBron's teammates love the guy to death and have only had good things to say about him since he came into the league.

Even now...I'd say there is more hate for LeBron than someone like DeShaun Watson. Again, LeBron is far from perfect. But are we saying narcissism is a worse trait than assaulting women?

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by pingbling23

less then an hour and this thread is already overflowing with false trash. impressive. trolls, we hate lebron so much because his fans always bring up lebron. also trolls, i will make threads about lebron and bring up or talk about lebron any chance i get.

hi ping, if you don't mind my asking, what Bron cards are you a hold on?

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by tjforce

Muhammad Ali
Jim Brown
Collin Kaepernick


All controversial athletes who were unpopularly outspoken politically, then were looked at favorably over time.

one of those is not like the other two...

As for Bron's off-court drama, it's not going to be remembered nearly as much as what he did on court. People might still hold his on-court behavior (e.g. flopping) against him.

[TSonn]

Originally Posted by Asian62150

You're right---the charity stuff can be faked. No one knows for sure. The PR spin game is powerful.

But my question is why are guys like Kobe/Big Ben (accused of serious crimes) not vilified/accusations forgotten/treated like heroes but LeBron is treated like a guilty criminal even though he's never been accused of committing any crimes? You want to talk PR making athletes look good? Kobe and Big Ben's PR teams did some pretty incredible work to spin their narratives after being accused of rape.

And Kobe was also accused of being a horrible teammate that no one wanted to be around/hang out with. Most/all of LeBron's teammates love the guy to death and have only had good things to say about him since he came into the league.

Even now...I'd say there is more hate for LeBron than someone like DeShaun Watson. Again, LeBron is far from perfect. But are we saying narcissism is a worse trait than assaulting women?

I'm no LeBron fan (almost always root against him) but I think it's a very loud minority that has a problem with him as a human being.

[mc1]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

megalomaniac who refuses to admit he is a megalomaniac- the worst kind of persona. Entitled and self-centered, certainly the king of his “me” generation.

The perfect recipe to be elected president and worshipped by many. someday.

[pcptrade]

Originally Posted by Asian62150

You're right---the charity stuff can be faked. No one knows for sure. The PR spin game is powerful.

But my question is why are guys like Kobe/Big Ben (accused of serious crimes) not vilified/accusations forgotten/treated like heroes but LeBron is treated like a guilty criminal even though he's never been accused of committing any crimes? You want to talk PR making athletes look good? Kobe and Big Ben's PR teams did some pretty incredible work to spin their narratives after being accused of rape.

And Kobe was also accused of being a horrible teammate that no one wanted to be around/hang out with. Most/all of LeBron's teammates love the guy to death and have only had good things to say about him since he came into the league.

Even now...I'd say there is more hate for LeBron than someone like DeShaun Watson. Again, LeBron is far from perfect. But are we saying narcissism is a worse trait than assaulting women?

The bolded part is true because it is all driven by investment bias. Blowout is notorious for hypocrisy. It's funny to see some members here who like to trash talk Lebron for his behavior and yet are completely fine with Kobe or Watson's past behavior because they own cards of those players. Narcissism>>> Rapism at BO

Originally Posted by rustywest

TROLL ALERT TROLL ALERT

You know what this thread is about? Old mates pristine colored Topps Chrome Refractor

Throughout his career I've been indifferent on LeBron. But after watching him intently this year my dislike for him has definitely sprouted for several reasons BUT he is always going to be above Kobe on the NBA hierarchy. Kobe just has better looking cards because he has 90's offerings.

Hellcat is a shameless troll, that's the only takeaway from this

Forget about the elephant in the room, the donkey in the room is screaming "I have a well centered Kobe Refractor with no greening!" It is a well known fact that the OP hates Lebron and owns a perfectly centered Kobe 1996 TC Refractor with no greening.

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by daeve

And he gets a 4-year handicap since Kareem had to go to college for 4 years while Lebron was free to get drafted straight out of high school. So put a big asterisk on that.

So look at their PPG or adjusted advanced metrics based on that, then?

Counting stats come with all kinds of "asterisks," and the rate stats do as well....

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by blackbears86

So Lebron has the longevity to POSSIBLY break the scoring record and only he should get an asterisk? We should punish him for having a long career? This is getting ridiculous.



Let's wipe out the hit record for Pete Rose. He played 24 seasons to Ty Cobbs 22.

He must have had many more plate appearances to get roughly the same number of base hits as Cobb did with a much higher career batting average.

The base-hits record is viewed in conjunction with other baseball career records for importance. For career counting numbers the "best" simple measure I know of is Total Bases (from base hits) plus Walks plus Steals. I believe every HOFer has a total of over 6,000 by this measure. It's a rough and ready proxy for more sophisticated numbers like Runs Created or the position-adjusted wins-over-replacement metrics. (Bonds is the all-time leader with more than 9,000, with Hank Aaron not far behind in 2nd, Rose is somewhere around 7,000 IIRC.)

As for the well-known raw-categories baseball records in order of importance I'd say they're like this: SLG, OBP, HR, RBI, R, H, BB, SB.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by Asian62150

You're right---the charity stuff can be faked. No one knows for sure. The PR spin game is powerful.

But my question is why are guys like Kobe/Big Ben (accused of serious crimes) not vilified/accusations forgotten/treated like heroes but LeBron is treated like a guilty criminal even though he's never been accused of committing any crimes? You want to talk PR making athletes look good? Kobe and Big Ben's PR teams did some pretty incredible work to spin their narratives after being accused of rape.

And Kobe was also accused of being a horrible teammate that no one wanted to be around/hang out with. Most/all of LeBron's teammates love the guy to death and have only had good things to say about him since he came into the league.

Even now...I'd say there is more hate for LeBron than someone like DeShaun Watson. Again, LeBron is far from perfect. But are we saying narcissism is a worse trait than assaulting women?

We don't know that Lebron's teammates love him or hate him. Of course if he is on your team you are going to say you love the guy to the media.

What I DO see is that Lebron has had a lot of trouble recruiting guys to play with him recently. No other star/superstar wants to deal with the drama of having Lebron on your team or being second fiddle. AD was the only guy willing to take a chance, and he knew that it was his only chance to get a title as well cause he gets injured so often. The best they could do was westbrook, who is in the same cancer category as James Harden.

Lebron, in addition, is not coachable. Guess why he has never had a legitimate NBA coach run his team? Because no coach wants to deal with the Lebron drama. Every coach knows that Lebron is not going to listen. Every coach knows they will be the second voice on the team.

The only reason anyone brings up Bron's personal life is because Bron's homeboyz really don't have anything great to say about him on the court - he doesn't have the killer instinct, he always relinquishes the clutch shots to someone else, and nobody wants to play with him because he turns the franchise into a one-ring circus. Sure, the only thing that is great about Bron is that he has incredible personal stats. Even the Bron haters know that.

But with all that immense talent, in fact, I have said many times in the past that he has had the greatest toolbox of any NBA player in the history of the game, along with Shaq, he has fallen short of what her really could have achieved.

Problem is, they won "only" four championships. If they actually were better teammates and played less selfishly, they should have at least 6 titles apiece. They were successful because of their raw talent, but their on-the-court shortcomings leave much to be desired.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by pcptrade

The bolded part is true because it is all driven by investment bias. Blowout is notorious for hypocrisy. It's funny to see some members here who like to trash talk Lebron for his behavior and yet are completely fine with Kobe or Watson's past behavior because they own cards of those players. Narcissism>>> Rapism at BO




Forget about the elephant in the room, the donkey in the room is screaming "I have a well centered Kobe Refractor with no greening!" It is a well known fact that the OP hates Lebron and owns a perfectly centered Kobe 1996 TC Refractor with no greening.

I alluded to this in the baseball card section, but I would love it if people would disclose what cards they own of that specific player of topic for each response they place. It would help to shed a lot of light on people's opinions and it would be great to hold people accountable for their stance.

They do this on virtually all financial equities articles and I think it would be appropriate on these forums as well.

Disclaimer - I currently hold zero Lebron cards in my collection.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by Asian62150

You're right---the charity stuff can be faked. No one knows for sure. The PR spin game is powerful.

But my question is why are guys like Kobe/Big Ben (accused of serious crimes) not vilified/accusations forgotten/treated like heroes but LeBron is treated like a guilty criminal even though he's never been accused of committing any crimes? You want to talk PR making athletes look good? Kobe and Big Ben's PR teams did some pretty incredible work to spin their narratives after being accused of rape.

And Kobe was also accused of being a horrible teammate that no one wanted to be around/hang out with. Most/all of LeBron's teammates love the guy to death and have only had good things to say about him since he came into the league.

Even now...I'd say there is more hate for LeBron than someone like DeShaun Watson. Again, LeBron is far from perfect. But are we saying narcissism is a worse trait than assaulting women?

Strictly from the basketball standpoint, Kobe had that killer instinct on the basketball court that Lebron never had. All athletes have their goods and bads outside of the sport, we know that about Tiger, Jordan, Kobe, etc. and just because Lebron may not appear to have as egregious bads off the court as the other athletes doesn't make him a more likeable basketball player.

Kobe modeled his game after Jordan's and that's what keeps his popularity at a high, and of course his tragic untimely passing. Bron's behavior is insufferable when related to basketball and that's what hurts his overall appeal.

Disclaimer - I currently do not own any Kobe, Tiger, Deshawn Watney (who the heck? - this is the basketball forum, not the caveman FB forum) or Jordan cards in my collection.

[Nomad]

Originally Posted by pcptrade

Forget about the elephant in the room, the donkey in the room is screaming "I have a well centered Kobe Refractor with no greening!" It is a well known fact that the OP hates Lebron and owns a perfectly centered Kobe 1996 TC Refractor with no greening.

Trick question: which would you rather have, Kobe 1996 TC Refractor with no greening or Bron TC with greening.

[SupermanBrandon]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

I alluded to this in the baseball card section, but I would love it if people would disclose what cards they own of that specific player of topic for each response they place. It would help to shed a lot of light on people's opinions and it would be great to hold people accountable for their stance.

They do this on virtually all financial equities articles and I think it would be appropriate on these forums as well.

Disclaimer - I currently hold zero Lebron cards in my collection.

I currently own 1 basketball card. A Trae Young that I cant give away.

Lebron is an ego maniac that tries to hide his narcissism. Jordan and Kobe were crazy as well, but they never tried to hide it. I don't trust someone that isn't true to themselves. I can respect Jordan and Kobe. I can't Lebron. Is he a great player, YES. I couldn't care less that he gives to charities and gives back to his community. Most celebrities and athletes give. So do blue collar citizens, poor and rich people. You're not going to get a pass from most people for doing what you should do.

AGAIN...I OWN ZERO Jordan, Kobe or Lebron cards! It affects my wallet 0%.