Did WhatNot Open a FAKE 1986-87 Fleer Basketball Box at The National?

[Greenbeak]

Looks like Goldin stepped up strong here
https://www.instagram.com/p/ChctthAO...d=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

[Adubbs111]

Smart business decision by Goldin. Too much at stake for them not to do this. Anyone who already pulled a Jordan is freerolling!

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by Greenbeak

Looks like Goldin stepped up strong here
https://www.instagram.com/p/ChctthAO...d=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

That's great but where would it come from? Reed from DA Card World, Larry Fritsch or the sealed case?

[mrb842]

weeks late. good work by sports card radio getting this right and no you probably shouldn't work with card collector 2, goldin, whatnot and especially bbce going forward. too many good guys working honestly to reward those guys.

[jr24ai3]

Originally Posted by Adubbs111

Smart business decision by Goldin. Too much at stake for them not to do this. Anyone who already pulled a Jordan is freerolling!

Everyone is already freerolling. The packs were given away for free.

[jr24ai3]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

That's great but where would it come from? Reed from DA Card World, Larry Fritsch or the sealed case?

Reed used to work for BBCE, and I think DA gets their boxes wrapped by BBCE. Nothing against Reed at all - he has bought cards from me in the past and I personally trust his opinion. But if you are someone who doesn't trust BBCE, I don't see how a BBCE wrapped box of fleer sold by DA is any better.

And Fritsch has their own flaws. I ordered some 89 Bowman Tiffany sets nearly 10 years ago, right when they started going up in value. They cancelled the order, saying they were out of stock and have been for a long time. A few days later they had them listed at a much higher price and the description said "stored in our warehouse since 1989". If they are going to cancel a $400 order to resell and just to make an extra $200-$300, I wouldn't trust them with a higher end box.

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by jr24ai3

Reed used to work for BBCE, and I think DA gets their boxes wrapped by BBCE. Nothing against Reed at all - he has bought cards from me in the past and I personally trust his opinion. But if you are someone who doesn't trust BBCE, I don't see how a BBCE wrapped box of fleer sold by DA is any better.

Yes, I'm familiar with Reed and the trust is 100% with him. He just happens to work for DA Card World right now. It doesn't have to be wrapped by BBCE. As long as Reed inspects it and gives a box his blessing, I'd be good with it. Personally, I believe it's time for him to open his own service if that's what he wants to do.

Originally Posted by jr24ai3

And Fritsch has their own flaws. I ordered some 89 Bowman Tiffany sets nearly 10 years ago, right when they started going up in value. They cancelled the order, saying they were out of stock and have been for a long time. A few days later they had them listed at a much higher price and the description said "stored in our warehouse since 1989". If they are going to cancel a $400 order to resell and just to make an extra $200-$300, I wouldn't trust them with a higher end box.

Inventory Control 100%. They don't like selling large lots to people. It doesn't matter who they are and could you really blame them? The same thing happened to me with the same sets. They were willing to sell me two though. I thought it was funny how a member here posted that they have their inventory listed on their website in in their catalog. No sir, they do not. They have what they are willing to sell listed and even then that's not guaranteed. It wasn't until after the auction started that the seller of the 1986 Fleer Basketball case was confirmed. I can't imagine what else they may have. Wasn't it for almost a decade that BBCE was offering $1k just to see pictures of a 1986 Fleer sealed case?

[rifleman69]

Originally Posted by Adubbs111

Fair enough. It also might be even more suspect if the cards look way different than the other cards, so putting in a Jordan PSA 1 or 2 would be super weird unless the other cards were screwed up (somehow, in fresh packs).

How about the other issue, the alphabetical order thing? Why do that?

Because you're lazy and didn't think this would get "caught".

[KhalDrogo]

Why would Goldin do this when Steve says the box is legitimate? Opens up a giant can of worms in the future if any BBCE 86F boxes from Goldin surface with funky collation.

[FBCardFan]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Why would Goldin do this when Steve says the box is legitimate? Opens up a giant can of worms in the future if any BBCE 86F boxes from Goldin surface with funky collation.

Well, if the box is BBCE certified and come out legit then some small piece of rep is saved.

[Asian62150]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

Inventory Control 100%. They don't like selling large lots to people. It doesn't matter who they are and could you really blame them? The same thing happened to me with the same sets. They were willing to sell me two though. I thought it was funny how a member here posted that they have their inventory listed on their website in in their catalog. No sir, they do not. They have what they are willing to sell listed and even then that's not guaranteed. It wasn't until after the auction started that the seller of the 1986 Fleer Basketball case was confirmed. I can't imagine what else they may have. Wasn't it for almost a decade that BBCE was offering $1k just to see pictures of a 1986 Fleer sealed case?

If it's inventory control, then just say it's inventory control. Tell ppl "Sorry, I don't want to sell this to you because it's currently more valuable than the price I quoted you so I'm backing out of the deal. But if you want to give me even more money than what was already agreed upon, we can talk."

Don't tell ppl "we're out of stock" when you're not and then just end up posting it a few days later at higher prices.

We rip on ebay sellers that do this and list them here so people can block them. If anyone else does this, we should rip on them and everyone should know about it, too.

[pip]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Why would Goldin do this when Steve says the box is legitimate? Opens up a giant can of worms in the future if any BBCE 86F boxes from Goldin surface with funky collation.

Because Goldin is exercising common sense instead of trying to explain away its BBCE Shangri-La Unicorn box. Generally speaking, all BBCE products must be questioned after the Pokemon case debacle.

[pip]

Originally Posted by Greenbeak

Looks like Goldin stepped up strong here
https://www.instagram.com/p/ChctthAO...d=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

I've taken some heat for saying so, but Goldin II has continually proven itself trustworthy when others have come up short. I've even started to bid in their auctions. Kenny has done an awful lot to redeem himself.

[THE(NEXT)LEVEL]

I can only imagine if that box is opened and is bad…….

[RogerGodahell]

After everything i've already said i can't say 100% fore sure if the box was tampered with or legit. Take it with a grain of salt my conclusion. I honestly don't know but i am skeptical for the record.

What makes me on the fence is any dumbass thief would have taken all of the Jordan's out of the box. Any half greedy smart thief would have replaced them with lesser grades. That's the only thing that gives me pause. And it's a good scam going forward so let it be known.

[Asian62150]

Originally Posted by RogerGodahell

After everything i've already said i can't say 100% fore sure if the box was tampered with or legit. Take it with a grain of salt my conclusion. I honestly don't know but i am skeptical for the record.

What makes me on the fence is any dumbass thief would have taken all of the Jordan's out of the box. A half smart thief would have replaced them with lesser grades. That's the only thing that gives me pause. And it's a good scam going forward so let it be known.

Exactly.

From BBCE: "...these things can and will happen. And it will happen again."

In other words, they've given scammers the blueprint. Now go do it! The more scammed boxes that are discovered in this fashion, the more opportunity BBCE will have to keep pushing this narrative/self-fulfilling prophecy and if nothing is done to stop it, it'll eventually become accepted as part of 86 Fleer "sealed" boxes.

If I see BBCE wrapping...no thanks. It means nothing to me.

[pip]

Originally Posted by RogerGodahell

After everything i've already said i can't say 100% fore sure if the box was tampered with or legit. Take it with a grain of salt my conclusion. I honestly don't know but i am skeptical for the record.

What makes me on the fence is any dumbass thief would have taken all of the Jordan's out of the box. Any half greedy smart thief would have replaced them with lesser grades. That's the only thing that gives me pause. And it's a good scam going forward so let it be known.

I think the opposite. Any intelligent thief would have taken some of the many Jordans he had in inventory and replace them with lesser condition cards. Go back and take a look at one of the PSA 7s. 1986 Fleer don't come out of packs with that much corner wear. I think it would be even more evident if the picture of the card were larger. And how does one explain this? That sure isn't a 6 because of the centering.

[pip]

Originally Posted by Asian62150

Exactly.

From BBCE: "...these things can and will happen. And it will happen again."

In other words, they've given scammers the blueprint. Now go do it! The more scammed boxes that are discovered in this fashion, the more opportunity BBCE will have to keep pushing this narrative/self-fulfilling prophecy and if nothing is done to stop it, it'll eventually become accepted as part of 86 Fleer "sealed" boxes.

If I see BBCE wrapping...no thanks. It means nothing to me.

It's the "dog ate my homework" excuse. It can be used at any time in any situation.

[RogerGodahell]

Originally Posted by pip

I think the opposite. Any intelligent thief would have taken some of the many Jordans he had in inventory and replace them with lesser condition cards. Go back and take a look at one of the PSA 7s. 1986 Fleer don't come out of packs with that much corner wear. I think it would be even more evident if the picture of the card were larger. And how does one explain this? That sure isn't a 6 because of the centering.

Sounds good when hindsight is 20/20. But then what would the dumb thieves do in this scenario? It only applies when you've had time to think of a good scam and this would qualify. I'm not saying it takes a rocket scientist but it would have fooled most people guaranteed if they pulled a Jordan or 2 and the sequance was correct 66 cards apart etc.

[RogerGodahell]

Originally Posted by pip

I think the opposite. Any intelligent thief would have taken some of the many Jordans he had in inventory and replace them with lesser condition cards.

So you're agreeing? I'm confused. That's what i said any half smart thief would have swapped them out.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by Asian62150

Exactly.

From BBCE: "...these things can and will happen. And it will happen again."

In other words, they've given scammers the blueprint. Now go do it! The more scammed boxes that are discovered in this fashion, the more opportunity BBCE will have to keep pushing this narrative/self-fulfilling prophecy and if nothing is done to stop it, it'll eventually become accepted as part of 86 Fleer "sealed" boxes.

If I see BBCE wrapping...no thanks. It means nothing to me.

This is why that empty box lot sold for $10k. It wasn’t for the case. It was for the boxes. Only takes one sale to rake in a massive profit. If you can figure out how to reseal the packs, you can’t get caught if you’re smart.

[pip]

Originally Posted by RogerGodahell

So you're agreeing? I'm confused. That's what i said any half smart thief would have swapped them out.

You're right. I misread it.

[pip]

Originally Posted by RogerGodahell

Sounds good when hindsight is 20/20. But then what would the dumb thieves do in this scenario? It only applies when you've had time to think of a good scam and this would qualify. I'm not saying it takes a rocket scientist but it would have fooled most people guaranteed if they pulled a Jordan or 2 and the sequence was correct 66 cards apart etc.

I think we're on the same page. One of the leading suspects is anything but dumb. They're well aware of the sequences but I think they got a little careless. They probably never thought the box would be opened, or if it was, it would have been off camera without sufficient knowledge of the order of players within each pack. The replacement Jordans were a necessity though. That was their insurance policy.

[FBCardFan]

Originally Posted by pip

I think the opposite. Any intelligent thief would have taken some of the many Jordans he had in inventory and replace them with lesser condition cards. Go back and take a look at one of the PSA 7s. 1986 Fleer don't come out of packs with that much corner wear. I think it would be even more evident if the picture of the card were larger. And how does one explain this? That sure isn't a 6 because of the centering.

1. You can check the serial on PSAs site and click a screen shot with your phone and enlarge it.

2. The 6 is a 6 because of the big white spot to the right of Jordan's name. It is an instant 6 according to PSAs standard guide.

[Asian62150]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

This is why that empty box lot sold for $10k. It wasn’t for the case. It was for the boxes. Only takes one sale to rake in a massive profit. If you can figure out how to reseal the packs, you can’t get caught if you’re smart.

Sad. And a consequence of BBCE's response is enabling/promoting this behavior.

Some things just aren't meant to be authenticated at this time and as a hobby, we just need to be ok with that.