Did WhatNot Open a FAKE 1986-87 Fleer Basketball Box at The National?

[mc1]

Originally Posted by pip

So we can agree that the only real service of value provided by BBCE is the wrapping?

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

If you dont know the value of the service, you aren't in the market for vintage unopened.

How does Steve distinguish an 86F box with 36 original packs versus a remade box with 36 sourced packs? You dodged the question earlier.

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

If you dont know the value of the service, you aren't in the market for vintage unopened. That's fine, its not for everyone. An individual who doesn't know any better is better off buying a BBCE wrapped box than a random one off eBay. It's easy to say.."Ahh..BBCE..scammers!!!! Roar!" But you offer no solution to someone that may want to jump into vintage unopened.

I mentioned PSA's financial guarantee as a contrast to the BBCE practice.

[pip]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

If you dont know the value of the service, you aren't in the market for vintage unopened. That's fine, its not for everyone. An individual who doesn't know any better is better off buying a BBCE wrapped box than a random one off eBay. It's easy to say.."Ahh..BBCE..scammers!!!! Roar!" But you offer no solution to someone that may want to jump into vintage unopened. I just read a thread that all the talk on YT is that vintage is undervalued. Simply put, what alternatives are there? Educate yourself and hope that's good enough? Based on some opinions here, that's too hard for people.

I trust substantiated provenance more than I trust ever-changing opinions and plastic wrapping.

[Asian62150]

So when something passes the BBCE "authentication process," it is wrapped and they put a label with a holographic sticker on it, correct? Is that sticker/hologram placed on top of the wrapping or underneath and directly on to the box/case?

Also, what does it look like when something fails the BBCE "process?" Do they just return the item as-is to the person who submitted it or do they mark it as unauthentic?

[jr24ai3]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

How does Steve distinguish an 86F box with 36 original packs versus a remade box with 36 sourced packs? You dodged the question earlier.

There is a section in this interview that explains his process.

https://jordancards.com/blog/86-87-f...er-steve-hart/

[cking]

We all got duped, agreed?

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

How does Steve distinguish an 86F box with 36 original packs versus a remade box with 36 sourced packs? You dodged the question earlier.

Your lack of effort to research the answer to your own question, even when told that there were answers in this very thread, is exactly why BBCE gets paid to wrap boxes. As for "dodging", you know that old saying "You can give a man a fish and feed him for a day......etc.etc...."

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by pip

I trust substantiated provenance more than I trust ever-changing opinions and plastic wrapping.

Let me guess, it's easy for you to substantiate the provenance of an item on eBay?

[pip]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

Let me guess, it's easy for you to substantiate the provenance of an item on eBay?

Most of the time, yes. That's actually the basis for BODA's research and findings. With provenance, you have accountability. Without it, you've got changing opinions and plastic wrap.

[pip]

Originally Posted by jr24ai3

There is a section in this interview that explains his process.

https://jordancards.com/blog/86-87-f...er-steve-hart/

He mentions several things to look for but admits there is a small likelihood (2%) he will fail. It's obvious now that he either doesn't know or is willfully ignorant, depending on the submitter so what he says in the interview isn't very accurate.

[2dueces]

I’m still in a bit of disbelief remembering walking by boxes and boxes
of this product on the bargain racks for $5 a piece.
Now at $150k each and still rising. All those Hensley Mullens
And Kevin Moss rookie cards seem like a bad investment now. 🥲

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by jr24ai3

There is a section in this interview that explains his process.

https://jordancards.com/blog/86-87-f...er-steve-hart/

Thanks!

What do you look for when certifying a box of 86-87 Fleer?

First and most importantly, we check to make sure all of the packs are original and untampered with. At today’s prices you can still have a 36 pack box, with every pack showing an Alex English sticker, and the box is still a $75,000 item! So making sure the packs haven’t been tampered with is the most important issue.

After that, we then do our best to determine if the box is original as it was issued from Fleer, or if it was a box built together with packs from different locations.

This is a lot more difficult to do as we have to check the sticker count, the centering on the wrappers being consistent, the colors of the wrappers being consistent, the gum being in the same spot in each pack, the sealing, the corners folds, etc. All these things will give me insight as to if the box is original or a built box.

So the answer is he can’t. All of this can be duplicated by a good scammer who takes his time. But the effort isn’t even worth it when Frankenstein boxes sell for significant amounts of money even though they may contain zero MJ RCs.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

Your lack of effort to research the answer to your own question, even when told that there were answers in this very thread, is exactly why BBCE gets paid to wrap boxes. As for "dodging", you know that old saying "You can give a man a fish and feed him for a day......etc.etc...."

You know that old saying about #@#@#@#@#@#@#@s?

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by pip

He mentions several things to look for but admits there is a small likelihood (2%) he will fail. It's obvious now that he either doesn't know or is willfully ignorant, depending on the submitter so what he says in the interview isn't very accurate.

If Steve says 2%, it’s probably closer to 50%.

I can’t imagine how many fraudulent boxes/packs have passed through BBCE the last two years. The stakes are higher than ever. The scam is well worth the risk, because there is none.

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by pip

Most of the time, yes. That's actually the basis for BODA's research and findings. With provenance, you have accountability. Without it, you've got changing opinions and plastic wrap.

We're talking about unopened product, don't change the topic to graded and trimmed cards. Also, you shouldn't use BODA as an authority in an issue related to authentic unopened product on eBay. I'm concerned about your description of provenance when applying it to eBay items. I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Have you ever purchased vintage unopened on the site?

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

You know that old saying about #@#@#@#@#@#@#@s?

Ha, I'll help you complete your thought....

"Opinions are like arseh*les, everyone has one" Except Steve gets paid for his and you don't like that for some reason.

[Gary]

I sure hope all this goes viral,be nice to pick up some cheap vintage wax.Prices on cards been falling for awhile,nobody's budging on vintage wax.any of you on Facebook or twitter could you share this thread for me.

[mc1]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

Ha, I'll help you complete your thought....

"Opinions are like arseh*les, everyone has one" Except Steve gets paid for his and you don't like that for some reason.

[Asian62150]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

Ha, I'll help you complete your thought....

"Opinions are like arseh*les, everyone has one" Except Steve gets paid for his and you don't like that for some reason.

The reason I don't like that is because his opinion doesn't hold much weight, if any at all. I care about the hobby and I don't like seeing people get "duped." I don't like seeing people get cheated or scammed. It's bad for the hobby and it's just bad to see in society in general.

In fact, some have wondered whether he was also in on some of these scams. In which case, Steve/BBCE getting paid for their opinion is pretty much fraud.

When I see BBCE wrapping, it adds no value. If anything, it tells me the product in question is likely ripe for a scam. Stay away.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

Ha, I'll help you complete your thought....

"Opinions are like arseh*les, everyone has one" Except Steve gets paid for his and you don't like that for some reason.

Steve gets paid for his opinion, it’s just not reliable and he doesn’t guarantee anything he does. Hopefully this ordeal has opened up the eyes of the consumer. Anyone taking a chance with BBCE wax going forward has nobody to blame but themselves if it goes bad.

[pip]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

We're talking about unopened product, don't change the topic to graded and trimmed cards. Also, you shouldn't use BODA as an authority in an issue related to authentic unopened product on eBay. I'm concerned about your description of provenance when applying it to eBay items. I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Have you ever purchased vintage unopened on the site?

I was referring to the provenance of anything that is purchased on eBay. Provenance is actually more difficult to determine on individual sports cards than it is on expensive unopened wax so I'm not sure why you're trying to segregate the two. It's the same concept and process of investigation.

As for your last question, yes; I've purchased vintage unopened on eBay. In each case, I've firmly established provenance before bidding/buying. I also tend to stay away from BBCE products as there are numerous problems with it -- especially in the 1980s where tons of stuff (including baseball and football) is searched.

[NoleinJax]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

I don’t understand how the opinion changes with time.

His opinion was that the pokemon case was a factory sealed case and once it was opened, his opinion changed to they all got duped.

[johnlocke36]

Maybe this is a stupid question, but why can't they change their business model so that they just open some of the product and reseal it (of course this won't always work). Take the pokemon case, they crack the case, crack one box at random and crack 2 packs. Then the reseal it. Sure you lose some value from not being factory sealed but wouldn't you gain more value by being for certain its not GI Joe packs.

Same with just cracking 1 pack from the fleer box. It's already a Frankenstein box, just open a pack (on camera) let the owner keep the pack and list it as 35 packs with 1 opened that contained the following sequence.

[jr24ai3]

Originally Posted by Asian62150

The reason I don't like that is because his opinion doesn't hold much weight, if any at all. I care about the hobby and I don't like seeing people get "duped." I don't like seeing people get cheated or scammed. It's bad for the hobby and it's just bad to see in society in general.

In fact, some have wondered whether he was also in on some of these scams. In which case, Steve/BBCE getting paid for their opinion is pretty much fraud.

When I see BBCE wrapping, it adds no value. If anything, it tells me the product in question is likely ripe for a scam. Stay away.

I don't how long you have been in the hobby or if you have followed the vintage wax market for a long time. So these comments aren't meant for you directly.

But there is a large group of vintage wax collectors that respect Steve Hart's opinion due to his long history in the hobby. On the collectors forums, people have done many group breaks with BBCE authenticated product and I don't recall any issues. There have been numerous group breaks where people received vintage cards with stars on top, which carries a big premium. There are many collectors who may not have known much about BBCE until the Pokemon issues, so I can understand why they have the view that they do. The bad Pokemon case hurt his reputation and that can't be denied. B

It's up to each individual collector to decide what type of value they put on BBCE's opinion going forward. Personally, I don't deal much with vintage wax. I might buy a random 1989 box because I'm a Griffey fan. But I do try to buy BBCE wrapped wax when I do. I value his opinion given his experience with unopened product. Obviously if it comes out that he was in on a Pokemon scam or that he knowingly wrapped bad product for his friends, then my opinion would change.

But if I was in the market for high end vintage wax, I'd definitely want him to take a look at it. Others may not want to based on the recent issues, which I understand.