Who are the biggest "what if" players of all time?

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by ReggieBush22

QBs coming out of college usually get drafted high by meeting obvious tangibles/measurables like height, size, arm stength, etc. Brady had none of these. The 2 GOAT QBs (Montana) were late picks because of these reasons. Neither were in the class of elite arm stength of others. Heck, JaMarcus Russell would put both to shame in a throwing session. But being a great QB is much more than measurables, as both proved. It's about calmness under pressure, vision, accuracy, anticipation, toughness, etc.

I mean i really don't know your point. Are you saying most of his success is a result of his circumatances? If so, no point arguing further. Even the mere hint indicating he wasn't the main reason for what he did, we are done.

Yes, I'm saying that if Bledsoe doesn't get injured, Brady probably doesn't have the career he did.

Belichick is the one that signed Bledsoe to the 10 year deal. That article that said Belichick wanted to start Brady in 2001 also said that Bledsoe was a declining QB. So, I guess Bill isn't the genius everyone thinks if he signed a declining QB to the biggest contract at the time.

Brady couldn't even secure the starting gig his senior year after being the starter his entire junior year. As far as your Montana comparison, a third rounder in 1979 (4th QB drafted) and 6th rounder in 2000 are not even close.

You are using hindsight to make your argument. It's real easy to look back and see what Brady did when he got a shot. A shot that he only got because of an injury. They drafted him to be the back up because they thought he was the best QB to fit their system, not because they thought he'd take over the team right away

[BostonNut]

Originally Posted by whitmm

Yes, I'm saying that if Bledsoe doesn't get injured, Brady probably doesn't have the career he did.

Belichick is the one that signed Bledsoe to the 10 year deal. That article that said Belichick wanted to start Brady in 2001 also said that Bledsoe was a declining QB. So, I guess Bill isn't the genius everyone thinks if he signed a declining QB to the biggest contract at the time.

Brady couldn't even secure the starting gig his senior year after being the starter his entire junior year. As far as your Montana comparison, a third rounder in 1979 (4th QB drafted) and 6th rounder in 2000 are not even close.

You are using hindsight to make your argument. It's real easy to look back and see what Brady did when he got a shot. A shot that he only got because of an injury. They drafted him to be the back up because they thought he was the best QB to fit their system, not because they thought he'd take over the team right away

No, they didn't.

[Grid]

Originally Posted by ReggieBush22

QBs coming out of college usually get drafted high by meeting obvious tangibles/measurables like height, size, arm stength, etc. Brady had none of these. The 2 GOAT QBs (Montana) were late picks because of these reasons. Neither were in the class of elite arm stength of others. Heck, JaMarcus Russell would put both to shame in a throwing session. But being a great QB is much more than measurables, as both proved. It's about calmness under pressure, vision, accuracy, anticipation, toughness, etc.

I mean i really don't know your point. Are you saying most of his success is a result of his circumatances? If so, no point arguing further. Even the mere hint indicating he wasn't the main reason for what he did, we are done.

To be fair, Montana was drafted in the 3rd round, and was the 4th QB taken. Phil Simms was drafted higher, and he turned out to be good too.

Montana was the undisputed starter at Notre Dame, and was drafted to be the starter for the 49ers. Which is exactly what he did.

Brady was a 6th round pick, and the 7th QB taken. Brady had to battle for the starter role at Michigan, and was swapped back and forth with Drew Henson.

Brady was never drafted to start, as the team clearly had their starter in place.

They both proved all the other teams that passed them over were wrong. But that is pretty much all you can say in comparison to them coming out of college, and why their teams drafted them.

[Grid]

Originally Posted by BostonNut

No, they didn't.

Courtesy of the Patriots PR Department and with a hat tip to WEEI.com's Chris Price, here are Belichick's exact words in his draft press conference on April 16, 2000:

Belichick: The next pick was Tom Brady. The value board at that point really clearly put him as the top value. Brady is a guy that has obviously played at a high level of competition in front of a lot of people and he's been in a lot of pressure situations. We felt that this year his decision-making was improved from his junior year after he took over for Brian Griese. He cut his interceptions down. He's a good, tough, competitive, smart quarterback that is a good value and how he does and what he'll be able to do, we'll just put him out there with everybody else and let him compete and see what happens.

Q: You have two quarterbacks on the roster that are of the drop back mold. Brady is more like that than he's like Bishop. Does this selection send any kind of message to Bishop, is it a change in philosophy, does Bishop not fit now?

BB: I'd say none of the above. We're going to run the offense we're going to run. We're not going to change it for a seventh round choice last year and a sixth round choice this year, neither of whom have ever taken a snap in a regular season game. If at some point they became the quarterback, we'd adjust it then. I'm not trying to send a message to anybody. We're just trying to win football games.

Immediately after the 2000 draft, Bill said he took Brady because the board told him the value was there. He wasnt looking for Brady, or even a QB. But the cards told him that would be the best value, so he did it.

When he was than pressed if drafting Brady, was a message to Bishop, he balked at that suggestion. Saying he is going to play his game, and isn't going to change anything for a 6th round pick.

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by BostonNut

No, they didn't.

You're right, they drafted him to be a roster filler.

Question for those saying that Brady was drafted with the intentions of being made the starter sooner than later. Why was Bledsoe signed to a 10-year, $103 million contract, the biggest contract in NFL history, in March of 2001? When Brady was already on the team.

[ReggieBush22]

Originally Posted by Grid

To be fair, Montana was drafted in the 3rd round, and was the 4th QB taken. Phil Simms was drafted higher, and he turned out to be good too.

Montana was the undisputed starter at Notre Dame, and was drafted to be the starter for the 49ers. Which is exactly what he did.

Brady was a 6th round pick, and the 7th QB taken. Brady had to battle for the starter role at Michigan, and was swapped back and forth with Drew Henson.

Brady was never drafted to start, as the team clearly had their starter in place.

They both proved all the other teams that passed them over were wrong. But that is pretty much all you can say in comparison to them coming out of college, and why their teams drafted them.

Your points are valid but so are mine. The jist of my point being both didn't possess Elway/Luck/Manning type measurables/tangibles, which would've made scouts pay more attention to them and most likely, get them drafted higher. Scouts love that rocket arm on a 6'5" frame.

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by ReggieBush22

Your points are valid but so are mine. The jist of my point being both didn't possess Elway/Luck/Manning type measurables/tangibles, which would've made scouts pay more attention to them and most likely, get them drafted higher. Scouts love that rocket arm on a 6'5" frame.

Sorry, what were your points again? All you said is that GOAT QBs make everyone better. While that may be true, the only reason Brady got on the field to even have a chance to develop into a GOAT is because Bledsoe got injured.

Even then, it took a while for Brady to become the player he is now. In his first 6 seasons, 3 pro bowls, 1 all-pro, 2 top-3 MVP votes. He completed roughly 61% and had a 2:1 TD/int rate and never had a QB rating over 93.

[gwgecko]

Even without getting hurt, Bledsoe was probably on the verge of getting benched if the Pats lost a couple more games in 2001

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by gwgecko

Even without getting hurt, Bledsoe was probably on the verge of getting benched if the Pats lost a couple more games in 2001

Imagine signing a guy to the largest contract in NFL history to bench him a couple games into it...

Bledsoe was 22/38 for 241 and 2 TDs in game 1. Not sure how that's a bench worthy performance.

[jplarson]

04/25/1993 - New England Patriots draft Drew Bledsoe #1 overall.
02/05/1995 - Bledsoe Pro Bowl based on '94 season.
07/20/1995 - Patriots sign Bledsoe to 7-year extension.
01/26/1997 - Bledsoe leads Patriots to Super Bowl appearance based on '96 season.
02/02/1997 - Bledsoe Pro Bowl based on '96 season.
02/01/1997 - Bledsoe Pro Bowl based on '97 season.
01/04/2000 - Bill Belichick is announced/resigns as the HC of the Jets
01/27/2000 - Bill Belichick is announced as the HC of the Patriots and has final say on roster build
04/16/2000 - Patriots draft Tom Brady in the 6th round, 199th overall. A 4-year college player who started 25 games his junior and senior years. Belichick notes he was good value at the 199th overall spot.
11/23/2000 - Brady goes 1/3 for 6 yards with 4 minutes to go in mop up action during a losing effort to the Lions.
03/07/2001 - Patriots/Belichick sign Bledsoe to record setting 10-year extension knowing he's got future 6-time Patriot Super Bowl winning Tom Brady on tap.
09/09/2001 - Belichick inexplicably starts newly signed Drew Bledsoe week one despite knowing he has future 3-time NFL MVP sitting on the bench.
09/23/2001 - Belichick SHOCKINGLY keeps $103 million dollar man Bledsoe starting for week two AGAINST THE JETS despite knowing he has future All-2000s/All-2010s QB Tom Brady carrying the clipboard.


Truly paints the picture of Brady preordained for greatness with the Patriots. Belichick playing 5D chess, risking the goatiest of GOATs sliding all the way to the 6th round after having spent picks on a OG in the 2nd, a RB in the 3rd, an OT in the 4th, a TE and DT in the 5th, and even a DB 12 slots before Brady. Then with a salary cap of $67.4M in 2001, signs Bledsoe to a contract that eats about 10.3% of the salary cap despite having Brady on a relative pittance.

[JewVol]

Collin Kaepernick is the only answer.

For over a calendar year he was the greatest football player I've ever seen then he stole Aldon Smith's girlfriend and we know how it went from there....

[Grid]

Originally Posted by jplarson

04/25/1993 - New England Patriots draft Drew Bledsoe #1 overall.
02/05/1995 - Bledsoe Pro Bowl based on '94 season.
07/20/1995 - Patriots sign Bledsoe to 7-year extension.
01/26/1997 - Bledsoe leads Patriots to Super Bowl appearance based on '96 season.
02/02/1997 - Bledsoe Pro Bowl based on '96 season.
02/01/1997 - Bledsoe Pro Bowl based on '97 season.
01/04/2000 - Bill Belichick is announced/resigns as the HC of the Jets
01/27/2000 - Bill Belichick is announced as the HC of the Patriots and has final say on roster build
04/16/2000 - Patriots draft Tom Brady in the 6th round, 199th overall. A 4-year college player who started 25 games his junior and senior years. Belichick notes he was good value at the 199th overall spot.
11/23/2000 - Brady goes 1/3 for 6 yards with 4 minutes to go in mop up action during a losing effort to the Lions.
03/07/2001 - Patriots/Belichick sign Bledsoe to record setting 10-year extension knowing he's got future 6-time Patriot Super Bowl winning Tom Brady on tap.
09/09/2001 - Belichick inexplicably starts newly signed Drew Bledsoe week one despite knowing he has future 3-time NFL MVP sitting on the bench.
09/23/2001 - Belichick SHOCKINGLY keeps $103 million dollar man Bledsoe starting for week two AGAINST THE JETS despite knowing he has future All-2000s/All-2010s QB Tom Brady carrying the clipboard.


Truly paints the picture of Brady preordained for greatness with the Patriots. Belichick playing 5D chess, risking the goatiest of GOATs sliding all the way to the 6th round after having spent picks on a OG in the 2nd, a RB in the 3rd, an OT in the 4th, a TE and DT in the 5th, and even a DB 12 slots before Brady. Then with a salary cap of $67.4M in 2001, signs Bledsoe to a contract that eats about 10.3% of the salary cap despite having Brady on a relative pittance.

Bill Belichick in the war room on day two, April 16th 2000. Knowing all too well that he has his eye on Tom Brady as the drafts biggest prize. BB knows everything! As he has wanted Brady ever since his watching him throw a whopping 14 TD's against only 10 picks back in 1998.

I mean, just look at this specimen!



Round 4, Brady is still on the board? That is crazy! I am selecting Greg Randall, the tackle from Michigan St. Someone needs to keep Tom clean in the pocket!

Round 5, I cant beleive the QB of our future is still sitting there! I'll take Dave Stachelski, the Tight End from Boise. Tommy boy will need someone to throw to!

Still Round 5? And still no one took Tom? This is it! Ill pick him now before anyone else can! Dammit, I picked Jeff Marriott a DT by mistake.

Round 6, I cant mess this up. These fools! They dont know what I know! Brady is going to be the GOAT!

And with the 187th pick in the 2000 NFL draft, the Patriots select Antwan Harris, DB out of Purdue

[rats60]

Originally Posted by whitmm

Yes, I'm saying that if Bledsoe doesn't get injured, Brady probably doesn't have the career he did.

Belichick is the one that signed Bledsoe to the 10 year deal. That article that said Belichick wanted to start Brady in 2001 also said that Bledsoe was a declining QB. So, I guess Bill isn't the genius everyone thinks if he signed a declining QB to the biggest contract at the time.

Brady couldn't even secure the starting gig his senior year after being the starter his entire junior year. As far as your Montana comparison, a third rounder in 1979 (4th QB drafted) and 6th rounder in 2000 are not even close.

You are using hindsight to make your argument. It's real easy to look back and see what Brady did when he got a shot. A shot that he only got because of an injury. They drafted him to be the back up because they thought he was the best QB to fit their system, not because they thought he'd take over the team right away

Kraft signed Bledsoe to the 10 year contract. Belichick wanted to start Brady after his performance in training camp and preseason. Belichick coming off a 5-11 season didn't think he could go against Kraft.

When Bledsoe was healthy enough to play in 2001, he sat behind Brady. After he relieved Brady and won the AFCCG, Belichick started Brady in the SB. Then Bledsoe was traded after the season.

[TheFrenzy]

Originally Posted by rats60

Kraft signed Bledsoe to the 10 year contract. Belichick wanted to start Brady after his performance in training camp and preseason. Belichick coming off a 5-11 season didn't think he could go against Kraft.

To repeat: You need to provide a rock-solid source for this claim.

[TheFrenzy]

To save rats some trouble, ESPN reporting from that time did speculate that maybe the Bledsoe contract had been more Kraft's doing than Belichick's...

...but it doesn't even hint at the idea that Belichick had wanted to start Brady since preseason.

[TheFrenzy]

In fact, coming out of Brady's second preseason, Belichick's assessment of him was that he was just barely ahead of Damon Huard.

Not that he was anywhere near challenging Bledsoe for the starting role.

Coach Bill Belichick said yesterday that second-year pro Tom Brady has been promoted to backup ahead of Huard, a five-year veteran.

“I’m not saying that that situation will be that way every week throughout the year,” Belichick said, “but based on the preseason, we just feel like Tom, right now, is a little bit of ahead of Damon in terms of handling the team...Nobody’s down or disappointed with Damon in any way,” Belichick said. “We just think that Tom has had a real good preseason, and he’s played well in some opportunities that he’s gotten against good competition. Maybe it’s because he’s been here for a year and has a little bit more knowledge of the system, but I just feel like, right now, he’s the next-best in terms of being able to handle the whole team.”

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by rats60

Kraft signed Bledsoe to the 10 year contract. Belichick wanted to start Brady after his performance in training camp and preseason. Belichick coming off a 5-11 season didn't think he could go against Kraft.

When Bledsoe was healthy enough to play in 2001, he sat behind Brady. After he relieved Brady and won the AFCCG, Belichick started Brady in the SB. Then Bledsoe was traded after the season.

Belichick was given near complete control of the team when he was named head coach. There's zero chance that Kraft went over him and signed Bledsoe.

And your whole second paragraph there is all stuff that happened after Bledsoe got hurt. If Bledsoe never gets hurt, he's not getting replaced that year. Or probably the next year. And if the team would have done bad that year and the next year, Belichick's job would have most likely been on the line.

[TheFrenzy]

The bigger Patriots' what-if is Robert Edwards.

With a strong running game, do the Patriots win enough games to keep Pete Carroll around? The team looked good in 1999 and Edwards' talent very well could have given the offense enough balance to avoid the late season collapse that caused them to miss the playoffs and cost Carroll his job.

If Edwards doesn't play in that Pro Bowl beach football game, the Pats make the 1999 playoffs, Carroll keeps his job, no Belichick, they don't draft Brady, and almost a quarter-century of NFL history plays out differently.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by whitmm

Belichick was given near complete control of the team when he was named head coach. There's zero chance that Kraft went over him and signed Bledsoe.

And your whole second paragraph there is all stuff that happened after Bledsoe got hurt. If Bledsoe never gets hurt, he's not getting replaced that year. Or probably the next year. And if the team would have done bad that year and the next year, Belichick's job would have most likely been on the line.

That is not true, it was Kraft who signed Bledsoe. Belichick wanted to start Brady after the preseason in 2001. It was only a matter of time before Brady was the starter. He was never going anywhere after that point.

Blesdoe was Kraft's guy. Brady was Belichick's.

https://www.capecodtimes.com/story/n...l/51006394007/

The two sides had been talking about a deal for almost a year. But the talks accelerated when Kraft decided the deal had to get signed soon if the Patriots were to take advantage of the salary cap savings in this year's free agent market.

Kraft called Bledsoe at his Montana home last weekend, and they agreed it was time to sign.

"He tracked me down, and that's not an easy thing to do at this point in my year," Bledsoe said. "I simultaneously got messages from about eight different sources."

Said Kraft: "It wasn't subtle."

Patriots owner Bob Kraft said Bledsoe has a chance to be remembered in Boston like Ted Williams, Bill Russell and Larry Bird, each having played his entire career in the city.

"I remember feeling sad when Bobby Orr left," Kraft said of the NHL Hall of Famer who left Boston for Chicago near the end of his career. "I saw this as an opportunity to sign one of the great Patriots for the rest of his career."

[rats60]

Originally Posted by TheFrenzy

To repeat: You need to provide a rock-solid source for this claim.

I don't have to provide you anything. It is not like you have shown anything to the contrary.

https://nesn.com/2020/09/bill-belich...edsoes-injury/

according to Jeff Benedict’s new book, “The Dynasty,” Bill Belichick wanted Brady to be New England’s starting QB to begin the 2001 season.

The only reason the Patriots didn’t turn to Brady sooner was because Bledsoe had just signed a 10-year, $103 million contract with New England and Belichick, who went 5-11 in his first season as the team’s head coach, simply didn’t have the cachet he has now. It’s highly unlikely Patriots owner Robert Kraft ever would have greenlit such a bold personnel decision.

[TheFrenzy]

Originally Posted by rats60

That is not true, it was Kraft who signed Bledsoe. Belichick wanted to start Brady after the preseason in 2001. It was only a matter of time before Brady was the starter. He was never going anywhere after that point.

Blesdoe was Kraft's guy. Brady was Belichick's.

https://www.capecodtimes.com/story/n...l/51006394007/

The two sides had been talking about a deal for almost a year. But the talks accelerated when Kraft decided the deal had to get signed soon if the Patriots were to take advantage of the salary cap savings in this year's free agent market.

Kraft called Bledsoe at his Montana home last weekend, and they agreed it was time to sign.

"He tracked me down, and that's not an easy thing to do at this point in my year," Bledsoe said. "I simultaneously got messages from about eight different sources."

Said Kraft: "It wasn't subtle."

Patriots owner Bob Kraft said Bledsoe has a chance to be remembered in Boston like Ted Williams, Bill Russell and Larry Bird, each having played his entire career in the city.

"I remember feeling sad when Bobby Orr left," Kraft said of the NHL Hall of Famer who left Boston for Chicago near the end of his career. "I saw this as an opportunity to sign one of the great Patriots for the rest of his career."

Your own source contradicts you.

"Coach Bill Belichick was noncommittal when asked what he would do with the savings. But he said it was beneficial to know that he won't have to worry about a quarterback for a long time."

[TheFrenzy]

Originally Posted by rats60

I don't have to provide you anything. It is not like you have shown anything to the contrary.

I literally have.

Just scroll up and start reading.

[TheFrenzy]

And the Benedict book that you're citing is more hagiography than history. I've got a copy and it's more entertainment than actual insider knowledge:

“After a few minutes, Bledsoe opened his eyes. Groggy and disoriented, he first spotted Maura. She smiled and squeezed his hand. Then he turned his head to the left and looked up to see Mr. Kraft, Coach Belichick, and Tommy gazing down at him. Confused and still experiencing the effects of powerful pain medication, he wasn’t sure what they were doing there. To him, they looked like a vision from another time and place.At that moment, Kraft owned a franchise that had never won a championship. Belichick’s overall record with the Patriots was 5-13. Brady had never started an NFL game. It was unimaginable to think that Bledsoe was staring up at the nucleus of the greatest sports dynasty of the modern era.”

Even Benedict's outrageous claim comes with no cited sources or even so much as a definitive quote:

“If it had been up to Belichick, Brady would have been his starter at the beginning of the 2001 season. He had said as much to Kraft when they met at the end of the preseason, but Belichick had known that he wasn’t in a position to push the issue then, when Bledsoe was the face of the franchise and Belichick was coming off a 5-11 season. Although Kraft had given him tremendous latitude over personnel decisions, benching the greatest quarterback in franchise history in favor of an unproven rookie right after Kraft had made Bledsoe the highest-paid player in the league would have been a bridge too far.”

That's why even Benedict has to concede that anyone actually following the team at that time would come to a different conclusion:

“Most writers who covered the team had expected Belichick to start Damon Huard, who was considerably more experienced and had compiled an impressive 5-1 record while filling in for an injured Dan Marino the previous year in Miami. But Belichick had made his mind up about Brady very early on.”

That's because Benedict is writing the story backwards. He's starting with the idea that "this is the greatest dynasty in modern sports" and working backwards to find an origin story that fits the conclusion—which isn't how historians operate.

[TheFrenzy]

Originally Posted by whitmm

You're right, they drafted him to be a roster filler.

Question for those saying that Brady was drafted with the intentions of being made the starter sooner than later. Why was Bledsoe signed to a 10-year, $103 million contract, the biggest contract in NFL history, in March of 2001? When Brady was already on the team.

What it is is a beautiful example of how popular history gets skewed all the time.

And not because anyone necessarily has bad intentions, but because when we love something we often want to be able to think of that thing as both the overcoming underdog and the destined conqueror.

We see it all the time with (ironically) the actual historical patriots and the founding of the United States. They are often presented as both plucky provincials who didn't stand a chance in the face of the most powerful military on the planet and also quasi-superhuman geniuses with an unparalleled commitment to universal ideals that would subsequently change the world.

With someone like Brady, people see all the rings and records and find it hard to believe that for two years he wasn't as good as a guy like Drew Bledsoe.

[gwgecko]

Originally Posted by whitmm

Imagine signing a guy to the largest contract in NFL history to bench him a couple games into it...

Bledsoe was 22/38 for 241 and 2 TDs in game 1. Not sure how that's a bench worthy performance.

Yeah, I still say if Bledsoe doesn't get hurt and keeps losing, and the 2001 Pats are like 1-5, then Brady probably gets some starts that year and an opportunity to win the job in 2002.

Edit:I don't think Brady was drafted with the intent to replace Bledsoe as the starter, but I think after going 5-11 in 2000 and starting 0-2 in '01, Bledsoe's starting days were numbered even if he didn't get hurt unless he and the team started playing a lot better. Belichick wasn't going to let Bledsoe tank his job with the Patriots if he wasn't performing.