Lebron Going Forward

[dream34]

He's started all but one of the 1,661 games he's played in. This is the one:

https://www.businessinsider.com/lebr...e-bench-2019-7


He's such a horrible human being! (Yes, his teammates must have hated the guy...)

[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by pcptrade

Just focusing on basketball, Did LeBron James play the 3 greatest games ever?




Starting at 23:50, see what most people (voters) outside of BO think!

Glad they gave Hakeem some love in that

[eastbayak]

You’ve convinced me! LeBron sucks and his prices are gonna drop another 75% or more.

Anyone selling a 02-03 Finest refractor BGS/PSA 8-8.5 for cheap? Being a humanitarian, I’d like to help someone save some money as we enter a recession. It’s only the right thing to do, to support and protect my fellow BO community from financial ruins.

Also, Curry sucks and his prices are going to drop another 75% or more too. If anyone has a 09-10 Classics Curry /499 auto BGS/PSA 8-8.5 for a cheap price, I’d like to help you out too. Recession is coming so sell now, but reach out to me first.

[hauntedcomputer]

Originally Posted by GOATcards

In fact I would say there are 3 serious GOAT candidates, the ones mentioned already (not Reggie Miller lol). The next 5 of Wilt, Kareem, Larry, Magic, and Timmy don't IMO have the level of resume of these three, all things considered.

Kareem has six rings, 5 MVPs, 19 all-stars, 15 All-NBAs and 11 All-Defensive teams. He's a tier above Lebron as a defender. Lebron has three more all-NBAs and one more Finals MVP and will pass him in all-time scoring but fewer rings and MVPs. I don't see how they aren't highly comparable even if you add extra weight for Bron's passing. First tier to me is MJ, Bron, Kareem and I usually give Kareem the edge over Bron when I'm not bombarded by recency bias.

But on-court and cards are two different things anyway.

[Asian62150]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

The problem is, lebron’s personal setbacks FAR outweigh his on the court achievements. I wouldn’t call his finals comeback the greatest thing that ever happened in the nba, but I’m not going to downplay his stats or talent, either.

Wilt chamberlain was a prolific scorer, Karl Malone, Kareem Abdul jabbar, Oscar Robertson - all some of the greatest career stat achievers of all time.

I still have no interest in buying any of their cards, in general, and I certainly won’t in the future, just as in the case of Bron.

Not trying to pick a fight over what's the greatest moment in NBA history, but just curious as to what would you say is better than the Cavs overcoming a 3-1 deficit on the road against a 73-win Warriors team that was destroying everyone in their path that year?

Also, I know people like to pick at LeBron's off the court stuff/personality. I don't agree with everything he's done, but I give him a lot of credit for being known as a good family man, being a good citizen, and building a billion dollar business empire/brand. I know he's not perfect but to do what he's done is impressive.

[Asian62150]

Originally Posted by Ericc5Bears

Bill Russell averaged 15 PPG on 44% from the field and 56% from the line in an era where the average center was 6'9 230 and had a full time job other than basketball.

He very well might be the greatest defensive player of all time and was the best player of his era, but even with modern nutrition he would be borderline useless on offense. He would basically be a smaller version of Hakeem without any of the offensive skill or maybe a bigger draymond green would be a better comparison. I wouldn't take him top 25 in an all-time redraft.

Where do you rank Wilt?

[Asian62150]

Originally Posted by hauntedcomputer

Kareem has six rings, 5 MVPs, 19 all-stars, 15 All-NBAs and 11 All-Defensive teams. He's a tier above Lebron as a defender. Lebron has three more all-NBAs and one more Finals MVP and will pass him in all-time scoring but fewer rings and MVPs. I don't see how they aren't highly comparable even if you add extra weight for Bron's passing. First tier to me is MJ, Bron, Kareem and I usually give Kareem the edge over Bron when I'm not bombarded by recency bias.

But on-court and cards are two different things anyway.

KAJ definitely deserves more love than he typically gets.

He had the most unstoppable shot in NBA history. And strangely enough, no one has duplicated it. I find it hard to believe some kid never grew up practicing and perfecting that shot like Kareem.

[drobfan8]

Originally Posted by dream34

He's started all but one of the 1,661 games he's played in. This is the one:

https://www.businessinsider.com/lebr...e-bench-2019-7


He's such a horrible human being! (Yes, his teammates must have hated the guy...)

That first stint Cavs Bron was amazing. He really turned in to a total douche after that stint. The Miami move turned a lot of people off him. I don't think he had any idea how much hate he was gonna get for that move. Then he realised he was the villain.

LeBron going forward is going to be just fine for accolades etc

[drobfan8]

Originally Posted by Asian62150

Not trying to pick a fight over what's the greatest moment in NBA history, but just curious as to what would you say is better than the Cavs overcoming a 3-1 deficit on the road against a 73-win Warriors team that was destroying everyone in their path that year?

Also, I know people like to pick at LeBron's off the court stuff/personality. I don't agree with everything he's done, but I give him a lot of credit for being known as a good family man, being a good citizen, and building a billion dollar business empire/brand. I know he's not perfect but to do what he's done is impressive.

I actually OKC in 2012 or even Dallas in 2011 is far more impressive.

The teams they beat were just wild. OKC got out of a 2-0 hole vs the Spurs to get to the finals. I think they beat Dallas and Dirk and Kobe also. These are teams LeBron lost to.

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by dream34

He's started all but one of the 1,661 games he's played in. This is the one:

https://www.businessinsider.com/lebr...e-bench-2019-7

neither you nor that article gets the number of games played right

He's played in 1395 games, which makes sense when 27 PPG x 1395 = ~38K

If he does end up playing ~1600 games, averaging 26 PPG, that's ~41.6K

(most games played is 1611 by Parrish)

[ninjacookies]

If only the playoffs weren't real games.

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by Asian62150

But ask most ppl today who had a better season in 1961-62 and they'll say Wilt.

I think Wilt would have preferred winning the chip.

It's been brought up how Wilt's numbers dipped (ahem) in the playoffs. Well, in that 8-team league, with only 4 teams going to the playoffs, who do you suppose was guarding Wilt in the conference playoffs? (They were called divisions then.) (6-team playoffs with a first-round bye. Me learnz)

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by Asian62150

The jersey sales just don't make sense to me.

If I saw that Paolo/Jalen Green/Ant-Man were top 10 in jersey sales, that makes sense to me because most ppl probably haven't bought their jerseys yet since they're young players. But LeBron/Curry have been in the league 10+ years.

I grew up in the 90s as a huge Bulls fan. But I just have 1 MJ Bulls jersey and 1 MJ USA jersey. I get that there are so many (too many) different styles and colorways now but do LeBron fans really need to buy a/multiple LeBron jersey every year?

But yeah...let's enjoy LeBron while we can.

you have to assess both peak and career jersey sales. Jersey Sales Share would bring more exactness.

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

But my question was what exact Paul Bunyan type moments will we remember to change our minds? He did do well to come back against the warriors and take that title, but outside that miraculous comeback, the only things I will remember are:

1.”king” James before he got to the NBA - what an egomaniac
2. The decision, which was horrible, horrible, horrible
3. Buying rings with super teams
4. All the political Mumbo jumbo
5. Leflop, lebrick and lechoke.

Not exactly a list of Paul Bunyan moments.

Minus his on the court career achievements, his legacy will be his failure to win more rings despite his supreme talent and his complete ignorance of his own social ineptitude, which people will not be able to forget or forgive.

History will see him as a megalomaniac. And of course, you (Bron bois in general) are who you collect.

the other side (or just see the Cancel Court video I posted earlier, it's entertaining regardless):

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by 6celtics33

You would think that but that’s a baseball mentality. Fondness and nostalgia. What I see in basketball is any particular group of fans thinking humans have evolved in 10 years to some super group that nobody else could ever compete against because they are so good.

It’s always who’s coming next. And this player and that wouldn’t be able to play today. and it’s always said with a slant towards today being better. Today’s basketball to my eyes is unwatchable most of the time.

I’m a nobody. I don’t know more than anyone. But that’s my opinion.

In terms of Lebron. I don’t care about this scoring thing. To me he’s an all around player and his 30,35, or 40,000-10,000-10,000 career triple double is right there with cy young winning 511 games. Some of it is situational on that he could come out of high school and be lucky with his health and yeah I know he prepares his body. But some luck is involved to be injury free for that long. That’s what I appreciate. He’s left his mark on the game. And that mark I would bet won’t be touched for 200 years if that.

I just can’t ignore the negative things I’ve seen. It’s weird. If I was looking at blind resumes he has a strong case for #1 ever.

But for my eyes he is 100% not one of the 5 best basketball players I’ve ever seen play basketball the way I look at the game.

Again, I’m a nobody. I realize that’s not blowouts opinion. I don’t care.

One man’s opinion.

Anyone with a lot of knowledge/experience watching the game and putting in some good thinking, should be listened to.

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

The problem is, lebron’s personal setbacks FAR outweigh his on the court achievements. I wouldn’t call his finals comeback the greatest thing that ever happened in the nba, but I’m not going to downplay his stats or talent, either.

Wilt chamberlain was a prolific scorer, Karl Malone, Kareem Abdul jabbar, Oscar Robertson - all some of the greatest career stat achievers of all time.

I still have no interest in buying any of their cards, in general, and I certainly won’t in the future, just as in the case of Bron.

no Kareem?

Oscar's on the short list for buys that I haven't picked up yet. 72T I think.

(the Mailman...don't much care to look at him)

[ScooterT312]

Originally Posted by Asian62150

Not trying to pick a fight over what's the greatest moment in NBA history, but just curious as to what would you say is better than the Cavs overcoming a 3-1 deficit on the road against a 73-win Warriors team that was destroying everyone in their path that year?

Also, I know people like to pick at LeBron's off the court stuff/personality. I don't agree with everything he's done, but I give him a lot of credit for being known as a good family man, being a good citizen, and building a billion dollar business empire/brand. I know he's not perfect but to do what he's done is impressive.

Warriors we’re down 3-1 to OKC, and winning that series in miracle comeback fashion in 7 plus focusing on 73 wins had that GS team gassed out by the finals. Sure they were up 3-1 on Cleveland, but Cleveland had a SIGNIFICANTLY easier road to cruise against the Hawks in Conf semi’s who were trash and swept, then played the good but never great Raptors in Conf finals.

The East that season was a complete joke. Cavs with their talent had such an easy free pass to finals it surely aided them in outlasting Warriors.

Give me Dirk’s 2011 title over Lebron’s in 2016. Cavs and Warriors were very comparable from a talent standpoint with both teams having all star big 3’s and dominating their conferences….

Dirk in 2011 faced a 3 headed superstar Miami Heat team without 1 other all star on the roster. After Dirk, the leading scorers for the team were Jason Terry and Caron Butler at about 15ppg. A 32 year old Dirk took out Lebron/Wade/Bosh in their primes. Never have we seen before or since, one man take out a team with that talent level, and I understand the cast of vets played great in the series, but again from a clutch scoring and leadership standpoint, it doesn’t get much better if at all. And Heat were up 2-1 and were 4 mins away from 3-1 before Dirk went Superman the rest of the series.

I weight Dirk’s 2011 title as probably the most significant single title for a superstar all time. He was never suppose to be able to overcome the Heat. And that series will forever be the series that for excludes Lebron as the Goat.

When you are compared to Jordan, to be better, you cant have a finals choke of that magnitude on the resume. 2 point average in the 4th quarter of a finals in your prime? That’s the goat? Outscored by Jet Terry in the series even after Jet telling the world he was going to do it…with only 4 titles plus the greatest choke in history in a finals? Will never be GOAT, ship sailed.

[jdandns]

Originally Posted by HBMC

If you don't understand why the "culture war" exists you cannot act like you're above it.

Dialectical framing of everything is why everything has to be endlessly dressed with politics. Accepting the premise to this framing is why so many braindead athletes proffer barely intelligible opinions.

The smart ones don't speak on it.

John Stockton really just wants to remind people he attended Gonzaga.

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by hauntedcomputer

Kareem has six rings, 5 MVPs, 19 all-stars, 15 All-NBAs and 11 All-Defensive teams. He's a tier above Lebron as a defender. Lebron has three more all-NBAs and one more Finals MVP and will pass him in all-time scoring but fewer rings and MVPs. I don't see how they aren't highly comparable even if you add extra weight for Bron's passing. First tier to me is MJ, Bron, Kareem and I usually give Kareem the edge over Bron when I'm not bombarded by recency bias.

But on-court and cards are two different things anyway.

The 6 rings & MVPs in Kareem's case overstate his accomplishments when you do the proper contextualizing for era/competition and just who was the main guy on the team for the last 2 of those rings.

His prime was in the '70s. Nearly every other era has more than one top-25-all-time player in it, some multiple top-10 players. Who was his closest competition in the '70s? When Bill Walton was healthy it looks like he was the best player in the league. Who, from Kareem's prime, has anywhere close to top-25-all-time MVP Award Share? Moses came late during his prime and won two MVPs after it.

I still have him more or less tied for 4th in the GOAT conversation.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by Asian62150

Not trying to pick a fight over what's the greatest moment in NBA history, but just curious as to what would you say is better than the Cavs overcoming a 3-1 deficit on the road against a 73-win Warriors team that was destroying everyone in their path that year?

Also, I know people like to pick at LeBron's off the court stuff/personality. I don't agree with everything he's done, but I give him a lot of credit for being known as a good family man, being a good citizen, and building a billion dollar business empire/brand. I know he's not perfect but to do what he's done is impressive.

I think trying to debate the greatest moment/achievement in the history of the NBA is beyond the scope of this discussion. However Bron's "comeback" can be viewed from several perspectives outside a Bunyanesque achievement.

I watched that whole series and I see it as a series that the Warriors "choked away" versus some magical series where Lebron just took over and won by himself. The warriors were complacent, they were spent, they succumbed to the pressure of their winningest season ever. They were not the same 73 -win team in the final games, they looked lazy, didn't rebound, didn't even try to defend. I remember having the feeling that the NBA wanted the Warriors to lose the series, they just flat out gave up the fight for whatever reason.

Again, credits to Lebron for bringing a title to Cleveland after screwing the city so badly when he first left.

But that happened almost 7 years ago, and that finals didn't make me a bigger fan then, a bigger fan now, and won't make me a bigger fan in twenty years.

There's a huge recency bias because Bron fans grew up during this era, especially with the internet and social media. How many Bron fans have actually watched any of the Bulls series or the Celtics/Lakers/76er battles? I would say very few.

Most Bron bois were born after 1981 - millennial maniacs. If you're not a Kobe guy, you are a bron guy. Millennials never saw Magic/Bird/Dr. J play live. They barely even cared about the Bulls. So they don't know any better. The worst part is, they don't even care to know any better. As long as they can retire from a day job they hate with their Bron stash, that's all that matters to them. LOL.

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by Asian62150

KAJ definitely deserves more love than he typically gets.

He had the most unstoppable shot in NBA history. And strangely enough, no one has duplicated it. I find it hard to believe some kid never grew up practicing and perfecting that shot like Kareem.

There's video of Wilt blocking his skyhook. This more or less helps make the point that had he faced the likes of prime Wilt (or Russell) during his prime, he might not have been quite so dominant on some key GOAT measures.

Wilt & Russell competed against each other for MVPs/share. Larry/Magic had to as well. etc

[rats60]

Originally Posted by GOATcards

There's video of Wilt blocking his skyhook. This more or less helps make the point that had he faced the likes of prime Wilt (or Russell) during his prime, he might not have been quite so dominant on some key GOAT measures.

Wilt & Russell competed against each other for MVPs/share. Larry/Magic had to as well. etc

Wilt blocked Kareem 5 times in one game.

Also, Magic was the best player on 4 of Kareem's championships. Magic and Worthy were the two best players on two of them. You just can't say a player has x rings, because rings are a team accomplishment. Kareem never wins a ring without another top 10 player on his team (Magic or Oscar Robertson).

[Asian62150]

Originally Posted by GOATcards

I think Wilt would have preferred winning the chip.

It's been brought up how Wilt's numbers dipped (ahem) in the playoffs. Well, in that 8-team league, with only 4 teams going to the playoffs, who do you suppose was guarding Wilt in the conference playoffs? (They were called divisions then.) (6-team playoffs with a first-round bye. Me learnz)

I'd argue that in '61-'62, a 25-year old Wilt cared more about personal stats than team success. I'm sure he cared about winning, but it didn't seem to be his #1 thing until the narrative was that Wilt could never beat Russell and the Celtics. Then he dedicated himself to winning.

Russell admitted to letting Wilt get buckets in the 4th quarter if the Celtics were blowing out the Warriors so when Wilt looked at the box score, he'd see that he had a great individual game, even though his team lost the game. That way, the next time Russell faced him, Wilt wouldn't be angry and go off on him from the start.

In the books/stories I've read about Wilt, he seemed to care a lot about what people thought about him. When the narrative was that Wilt was selfish, he decided to show everyone by leading the league in assists, sometimes sacrificing easy scoring opportunities just to rack up more dimes (Rondo style).

Still an all-time great though.

[Beavers98]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

What exact epiphany are Lebron critics going to have after he's retired versus what they feel about him now?

Are they going to suddenly look back at his career one day and think "hmm, that Lebron, I think I actually like him! What in the world was I thinking when he was an active player?"

Is he going to save the world after his basketball career is over and make people reflect fondly about his career? Or is he going to be slowly forgotten due to out of sight out of mind.

Chances are high he will do something post-retirement that will continue to make you

IDk I get what you're saying, but that time/nostalgia thing is real.

From personal experience, I Hated the Bad Boy Pistons, totally despised them during their heyday. Now I find myself appreciating what they did and who they were. Now I have an, albeit a small. collection of I. Thomas and B.Laimbeer autos, as kind of an appreciative nod and almost anti-hero/villain side of 2 of my main PC guys in Jordan and Bird.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by Beavers98

IDk I get what you're saying, but that time/nostalgia thing is real.

From personal experience, I Hated the Bad Boy Pistons, totally despised them during their heyday. Now I find myself appreciating what they did and who they were. Now I have an, albeit a small. collection of I. Thoams and B.Laimbeer autos, as kind of an appreciative nod and almost anti-hero/villain side of 2 of my main PC guys in Jordan and Bird.

There’s no nostalgia for people you don’t like.

There’s nostalgia for athletes you didn’t like.

Most of you like LeBron. You’re trying to convince those who don’t that we’re going to be more fond of him in the future? Good luck with that. I’ll be just as happy to talk down on him in 20 years as I am today.