Inconsistent and illogical PSA grading standards on early 2000s, 90s & 80s

[larry25]

Just wondering if anyone else has noticed PSA turning the screws ridiculously tight on cards from 20-40 years ago. I own a ton of this stuff, much of it still unopened, and I have collected it since the early 1980s when I first started watching baseball. I have tons of factory sets, cases, wax, etc., and when I have time, I open some of it, and I send it out for grading. Usually I send to PSA, but I am old school and still like BGS, too, always trying for that Pristine 10. I have noticed recently that the grades from PSA are laughable and even nonsensical. I am trying to understand it, and what I think has happened is that the legions of unexperienced graders at PSA have adopted the brand new 2020s Panini Prizm and Topps Chrome and other cards made of plastic and metal as the standard for Gem Mint 10 and they are illogically using that to compare to older cards. Obviously this doesn't make any sense, as cards made from vintage card stock in the 80s and 90s and even some brands in the 2000s have totally different quality. I think this is happening, and I also think PSA is just out of control. I have sent PSA 9s to BGS recently that I thought were obvious 10s when I sent to PSA, and at BGS several graded Pristine 10. I couldn't believe it. Is anyone else noticing this. Is it just a fool's errand to send cards 20-40 years old to PSA hoping for 10s. Why even submit this stuff to PSA anymore at this point? Do you think it is also maybe pop control? I never really believed in that, but it's starting to make sense to me now.

[Woodsy074]

For the most part they get it right. I find people who complain don’t know how to adequately assess these types of cards. A 10x loupe is a must on corners and edges.

[anusinha]

Originally Posted by Woodsy074

For the most part they get it right. I find people who complain don’t know how to adequately assess these types of cards. A 10x loupe is a must on corners and edges.

People who have been sending 90s stuff for years have noticed the same thing. Used to get a bunch of 10s, now its all 7-8. I wonder if it has something to do with genamint or any type of ai scanning they do, that picks up every random microscopic surface defect and hammers the card which the grader just goes along with.

[rfgilles]

Originally Posted by anusinha

People who have been sending 90s stuff for years have noticed the same thing. Used to get a bunch of 10s, now its all 7-8. I wonder if it has something to do with genamint or any type of ai scanning they do, that picks up every random microscopic surface defect and hammers the card which the grader just goes along with.

If they are using genamint to grade cards, shouldn't this be disclosed to the customers?

[larry25]

Originally Posted by Woodsy074

For the most part they get it right. I find people who complain don’t know how to adequately assess these types of cards. A 10x loupe is a must on corners and edges.

I don't agree with this at all. How can one company call something Mint 9 and the other company call the same card Pristine 10? I used to get 10s all the time on my cards from the 80s and 90s. Now it just doesn't happen. It seems like something strange is going on. I think most of the graders just think a 2022 Silver Prism card with perfect centering and surfaces is what a PSA 10 Don Mattingly RC is supposed to look like, and that's just not true. Those cards are apples and oranges!

[shrevecity]

Originally Posted by Woodsy074

For the most part they get it right. I find people who complain don’t know how to adequately assess these types of cards. A 10x loupe is a must on corners and edges.

It's not a must. I know of many myself included who have a very good 10 return rate and have never used a loupe.

Thar said there are issues that can affect this that's has nothing to do with the graders. Degrading eyesight is one if it's slow it may progress a long way before you really notice it

[junkwaxgems]

Originally Posted by larry25

Just wondering if anyone else has noticed PSA turning the screws ridiculously tight on cards from 20-40 years ago. I own a ton of this stuff, much of it still unopened, and I have collected it since the early 1980s when I first started watching baseball. I have tons of factory sets, cases, wax, etc., and when I have time, I open some of it, and I send it out for grading. Usually I send to PSA, but I am old school and still like BGS, too, always trying for that Pristine 10. I have noticed recently that the grades from PSA are laughable and even nonsensical. I am trying to understand it, and what I think has happened is that the legions of unexperienced graders at PSA have adopted the brand new 2020s Panini Prizm and Topps Chrome and other cards made of plastic and metal as the standard for Gem Mint 10 and they are illogically using that to compare to older cards. Obviously this doesn't make any sense, as cards made from vintage card stock in the 80s and 90s and even some brands in the 2000s have totally different quality. I think this is happening, and I also think PSA is just out of control. I have sent PSA 9s to BGS recently that I thought were obvious 10s when I sent to PSA, and at BGS several graded Pristine 10. I couldn't believe it. Is anyone else noticing this. Is it just a fool's errand to send cards 20-40 years old to PSA hoping for 10s. Why even submit this stuff to PSA anymore at this point? Do you think it is also maybe pop control? I never really believed in that, but it's starting to make sense to me now.

Completely agree. Ive been grading with PSA (and BGS) for over 20 years and there has been a major, marked difference on 90s and back stuff.

I do a lot of late 80s cardboard non-sports and PSA has been hammering them for the last year. Not just my own but I'm seeing a lot of it happening across cards from the sets I sub. I believe the new wave of grader's find the nuances of these cards to be confusing or challenging primarily for the reasons you listed.

[Woodsy074]

If you aren’t using a 10x loupe (especially on the more iconic cards), then that is your problem. You will be shocked how bad a “pack fresh” corner can look on a 1984 Topps card at this level that looks perfect to the naked eye. I’ve certainly gotten the GOD on some orders but I find that if a card comes back a lower grade than I initially assessed it at, there is usually something wrong with the card that I missed after looking it over again.

[rfgilles]

Originally Posted by Woodsy074

If you aren’t using a 10x loupe (especially on the more iconic cards), then that is your problem. You will be shocked how bad a “pack fresh” corner can look on a 1984 Topps card at this level that looks perfect to the naked eye. I’ve certainly gotten the GOD on some orders but I find that if a card comes back a lower grade than I initially assessed it at, there is usually something wrong with the card that I missed after looking it over again.

PSA graders don't use loupes.

[CheapThief]

Originally Posted by rfgilles

PSA graders don't use loupes.

I'd always thought this too-- Joe said as much about 10 years ago-- but a buddy of mine got to tour the facility when he was interviewing for a management job and he said the graders WERE using loupes. So, there could have been a change of policy at some point.

[PSA2Pac]

My guess is maybe there are loupes in the office but they’re not necessarily using it on every card. High end or maybe vintage or specific sets they get used more often



I’ve also never once used a loupe and I’ve done well, 90% of the cards I’ve sent in were also purchased on eBay too

[rfgilles]

Originally Posted by PSA2Pac

My guess is maybe there are loupes in the office but they’re not necessarily using it on every card. High end or maybe vintage or specific sets they get used more often



I’ve also never once used a loupe and I’ve done well, 90% of the cards I’ve sent in were also purchased on eBay too

Yeah I'm sure they have them, why wouldn't they? But they aren't used routinely in their grading process.

In other words, you don't need a loupe to see flaws that would be dinged in grading.

[shrevecity]

Originally Posted by rfgilles

Yeah I'm sure they have them, why wouldn't they? But they aren't used routinely in their grading process.

In other words, you don't need a loupe to see flaws that would be dinged in grading.

Likely only use them in cases where they suspect trimming or other serious issues.

[f2tornado]

A grader would be more inclined to use a loupe on something like 1987 Topps baseball where a flaw would blend in with the card design to the naked eye. Another good example is the 1992 Bowman Foil cards where it can be really hard to tell if it's gold or white on the tip of a corner. My gem rate has gone up since using the loupe more often but it feels like I'm only sending PSA cards that could be in BGS black label slabs.

[Woodsy074]

PSA has been using loupes for years. Here is a video straight from their website on tips to grading cards on your own. Go to the 4:10 mark.

https://youtu.be/RcSpZ33wqQ4

I agree with the comment that the vast majority of cards aren't being louped as its unnecessary. Printing lines, roller marks and other surface defects are the common problems that you need proper lighting for not magnification to see on newer cards. Very rarely will you see a damaged corner or chipping and if you do it is very obvious. A 1984 Topps Don Mattingly RC or 90s foil insert, you better bet they are pulling out the loupe to look at those. If you aren't using a loupe on this era of cards, then you are not adequately assessing your cards prior to submitting for grading. I would also bet that is why these older / vintage orders are getting processed much slower than the UM orders on average.

[junkwaxgems]

I think this topic comes with a lot of fatigue for people on these forums who are used to viewing this type of theory/observed change with skepticism due to the constant claims of foul by glut of new hobbyists/investors over the last few years. Most of which are unskilled in the necessary elements of card grading and have expectations of pack freshness that are not realistic.

Even just finding ongoing discussion of current card grading experiences that pertain to cardboard, pre-chrome, non-ultra-modern stuff is difficult. Reading the PSA tracker thread is almost useless as 90% of the posted results pertain to this stuff. And it is usually those collectors who are quick to shut down any discussion of PSA's current grader crop potentially struggling with older issues.

For those of us who are interested in paying attention to this trend and who can rule out such suggested faults as failing eyesight, not using a loupe, glossing over surface indents and improperly dusting off our penny sleeves, perhaps we need an ongoing results tracker for pre-1990 subs? Timing is right with the recent CC specials. Is there demand for this?

[Boostedwrx]

I've only submitted ~1k cards or so to PSA, which is nothing to most of you, but I've almost given up on sending 90's and 2000 stars. The last sub I sent I got back all 9's. On over 3/4 of the sub could of been 10's but they want to pop control certain stars or series IDK.

On the flip side I've sent in a few subs of 2020+ stars and have gotten back >90% gem rate even when I can find a small flaws.

Long story long I can find small flaws on 2020+ cards and still get 10s but I have to send 90's cards completely pristine or I get a 9. Is that how its supposed to be?

[larry25]

Thank you for all the responses here. To be clear, I have graded thousands of cards with all 3 major grading companies. I have a loupe on my card bench at home and another one on my desk at my work, where I often receive packages. I think some of you are overlooking my main point here. Grading standards for chrome era stuff cannot be the same as the standards for pre-chrome stuff. Unless they are trimmed or cut from a sheet, the corners on a 1984 Topps Don Mattingly RC will never ever EVER look like the razor sharp edges and corners on a Bowman Chrome or Panini Prizm card, period. To conflate the two is a sign of a company that has lost all bearing whatsoever in its professional expertise. It is entirely illogical, ridiculous, and even unscrupulous. The reality is, I don't think SGC has been any easier, but BGS still seems reasonable, from time to time, and depending on the grader. Same story there as ever, I suppose.

[discodanman45]

The grading at PSA really depends on the grader. I have graded a ton of 1980's stuff and I send cards in different orders with about the same condition. Sometimes I get back 7,8's and other times the same type of card comes back 8,9's. I have only received a few PSA 10's from 80's stuff, but they were low pop cards in 10's. A 1984 Puckett Fleer Update and 1988 Fleer Rodman. Both were two years ago though, so not very recent.

I think the issue at PSA right now is they are 10 times the size they were only a few years ago. Submitting cards pre-Covid you got more consistent results because the same people were grading each order and they were probably taking more time. PSA also may be using some automated grading at this point as well.

[paulcarlcards]

I’ve taken a break from PSA since my last order where they mislabeled a paper 1996 Topps card as “Topps Chrome” and (probably) mixed up two copies of the same card I subbed and gave the one with the white corner a 10 (expected an 8) and the one that I expected the 10 on got the 8.

[mantlefan7]

I just got back a 30 card sub with mostly 90s hockey and some 90s Griffey. Got hammered - one 10 (2022 Babe Ruth) a few 9s, lots of 6,7, and 8s. All were PC, but still sucks. Definitely wouldn’t have sent them in if I thought they were in that type of shape. Not gonna waste any more money, so I will probably just let my membership expire.

[anusinha]

wonder if its better to just send 90s stuff to BGS. PSA seems intent on pop controlling stuff hard.

[vthobby]

Just with the 1st 3 words in your title, it was obvious which TPG you were talking about. lol

[Woodsy074]

Just had a 50 card order move to Assembly. I was able to backdoor 37 of the grades (guess its sorta working again). All 90s basketball (junk wax MJs, Shaq rookie cards, 92 Beam Teams, etc). Of the 37, I have 18 tens and 19 9s so far (roughly 50%).

Will post the final results when they pop but like I said, if you know what to look for, your gem rate will be fine. When factoring in the cards I knew wouldn't gem, I'm running at 90%. Buy a Loupe guys and be true to yourself. If you see more than one issue with the card, it won't gem so don't kid yourself.

[anusinha]

see what happens when they actually pop. PSA has been notorious for dropping grades during the QA steps. I know it makes no sense to try and grade through the slab and break it out and reslab it....... but PSA gunna PSA.