**The Perennial MIKE TROUT Thread**

[atk825]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Some seem to be having a hard time accepting that today’s game is vastly different from the game of the past. Trout is the best hitter of the 2010s, and it’s not close. OPS+ of 176 with Cabrera at 153 and Votto at 152.

I don’t think this is a weak generation of hitters. Pitching is just that good, and the heavy use of relief pitching makes it even more challenging. Combine this with injury issues for just about everyone, and the numbers look not great compared to the past.

The nice thing with standardized stats is that it accounts for era.

[SupermanBrandon]

Originally Posted by eephuspitch

And as fans of baseball (presumably), shouldn't we all be rooting for him?

He's undeniably a class act, unassuming...the accidental superstar. There isn't a more popular or revered player amongst players (and coaches) in baseball. He's not flashy, doesn't show up his teammates and rarely, if ever complains (when he has good reason to being on the Angels).

I hate that he's been beset by fluke injuries and a shorten pandemic season but this idea that at 31, people are shutting the door on his greatness is absurd.

Agree I hope he reaches the biggest milestones, wins in the biggest moments and much much more. He's a great player & what seems to be a great person. All-time elite inner circle HOF'er 10-20-30 years from now, he is not. And I don't think anyone is just shutting the door on his greatness, they are just looking at reality and the past 100 years of injury prone guys in major league baseball. We all know how this ends. It doesn't matter what you did a decade ago. Father time doesn't care about that.

[atk825]

Originally Posted by SupermanBrandon

Agree I hope he reaches the biggest milestones, wins in the biggest moments and much much more. He's a great player & what seems to be a great person. All-time elite inner circle HOF'er 10-20-30 years from now, he is not. And I don't think anyone is just shutting the door on his greatness, they are just looking at reality and the past 100 years of injury prone guys in major league baseball. We all know how this ends. It doesn't matter what you did a decade ago. Father time doesn't care about that.

I mean Ken Griffey is probably considered inner circle and never won anything. Would guess Trout has that level of staying power.

[eephuspitch]

Originally Posted by atk825

The nice thing with standardized stats is that it accounts for era.

Without question. The variance is notable when comparing cohorts, however.

[eephuspitch]

Originally Posted by SupermanBrandon

Agree I hope he reaches the biggest milestones, wins in the biggest moments and much much more. He's a great player & what seems to be a great person. All-time elite inner circle HOF'er 10-20-30 years from now, he is not. And I don't think anyone is just shutting the door on his greatness, they are just looking at reality and the past 100 years of injury prone guys in major league baseball. We all know how this ends. It doesn't matter what you did a decade ago. Father time doesn't care about that.

Who is on your list for all time, elite inner circle HOF'er?

[atk825]

Originally Posted by eephuspitch

Who is on your list for all time, elite inner circle HOF'er?

It's also weird to talk about Trout as if his career is complete. He's 31 and just had an injury that doesn't really have a huge impact long term. He has the contract to have a nice long glide path.

[ThoseBackPages]

the elite inner-circle of HOFs is very small

[eephuspitch]

Originally Posted by atk825

It's also weird to talk about Trout as if his career is complete. He's 31 and just had an injury that doesn't really have a huge impact long term. He has the contract to have a nice long glide path.

That's sort of the point I'm making. Again, I'm not trying to minimize his mounting track record of injuries but so far none are chronic, they would be defined as fluke. He doesn't have a fitness issue, for example. Clearly the shorten pandemic season wasn't his fault. And when he's been on the field he's performed at an elite level. He has an OPS+ last year of 176 and 194 the year before that.

[eephuspitch]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

the elite inner-circle of HOFs is very small

If you are saying it's 10 people or something then yes, he's isn't a top 10 player of all time. But if that list is let's say 50, which is more reasonable in my view, than he's in consideration...so far.

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by eephuspitch

If you are saying it's 10 people or something then yes, he's isn't a top 10 player of all time. But if that list is let's say 50, which is more reasonable in my view, than he's in consideration...so far.

i agree with you on the Top 50

the problem with the HOF is that they keep adding people when its not necessary

[eephuspitch]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

i agree with you on the Top 50

the problem with the HOF is that they keep adding people when its not necessary

Not going to argue with you there. This idea at 31 and his track record to date that he shouldn't be in the conversation for top 50 of all time is absurd, however.

[theshowandme]

Top 5% of the HOF is about 13 names, so let’s just extend it to a more natural 15

Ruth
Cobb
Wagner
Mathewson
Johnson
Young
Gehrig
T. Williams
Aaron
Mays
Mantle
Musial
J. Robinson
Clemente
Pujols when he gets there


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[atk825]

Originally Posted by eephuspitch

If you are saying it's 10 people or something then yes, he's isn't a top 10 player of all time. But if that list is let's say 50, which is more reasonable in my view, than he's in consideration...so far.

I think of Frank Robinson as being inner circle. And he's something like 21st highest WAR among position players. Pujols is inner circle and he's lower than that.

[SupermanBrandon]

Originally Posted by eephuspitch

Who is on your list for all time, elite inner circle HOF'er?

Will Trout have the legendary status and reverence of Ruth, Mantle, Mays, Aaron, Cobb, etc? I've been told by this board for years that Trout was a 1st ballot, inner circle HOF'er. I've gone against that grain for a few years now. Just continuing to prove my point. His WAR is incredible. He's a no doubt great player. I hope he finishes strong and walks away earlier than expected. Nobody wants to see him limp thru the last years. He just does not have the staying power of being remembered like the guys above, once he retires. He's a rather forgettable player once you get past the hardcore collectors and stat guys. Injuries suck. He will be remembered more as a "imagine if he hadn't gotten hurt so much" guy.

ZERO career milestones. ZERO Gold Gloves. ZERO playoff success. ZERO rings. ZERO pop culture relevance.

How many times did he lead the AL in RBIs, HRs, AVG, etc?

[eephuspitch]

Originally Posted by theshowandme

Top 5% of the HOF is about 13 names, so let’s just extend it to a more natural 15

Ruth
Cobb
Wagner
Mathewson
Johnson
Young
Gehrig
T. Williams
Aaron
Mays
Mantle
Musial
J. Robinson
Clemente
Pujols when he gets there


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Respectfully, Jackie isn't on that list. Was he a transcendent player? Without question. But statistically speaking he's not in this sort of conversation. Neither is Trout.

[atk825]

Originally Posted by theshowandme

Top 5% of the HOF is about 13 names, so let’s just extend it to a more natural 15

Ruth
Cobb
Wagner
Mathewson
Johnson
Young
Gehrig
T. Williams
Aaron
Mays
Mantle
Musial
J. Robinson
Clemente
Pujols when he gets there


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yah, I think anyone over 100 WAR is probably pretty inner circle. And obviously including someone like Jackie is more cultural than pure numbers. From post-2000 era, the inner circle people I'd have are:

Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Clayton Kershaw
Mike Trout
Ichiro
Pujols

[atk825]

Originally Posted by eephuspitch

Respectfully, Jackie isn't on that list. Was he a transcendent player? Without question. But statistically speaking he's not in this sort of conversation. Neither is Trout.

Almost as if there's a reason why he didn't debut until his age 28 season...

[SupermanBrandon]

Inner circle is legendary, God like status. Inner circle isn't just about stats (which Trout doesn't really have, and wont).

[eephuspitch]

Originally Posted by SupermanBrandon

Will Trout have the legendary status and reverence of Ruth, Mantle, Mays, Aaron, Cobb, etc? I've been told by this board for years that Trout was a 1st ballot, inner circle HOF'er. I've gone against that grain for a few years now. Just continuing to prove my point. His WAR is incredible. He's a no doubt great player. I hope he finishes strong and walks away earlier than expected. Nobody wants to see him limp thru the last years. He just does not have the staying power of being remembered like the guys above, once he retires. He's a rather forgettable player once you get past the hardcore collectors and stat guys. Injuries suck. He will be remembered more as a "imagine if he hadn't gotten hurt so much" guy.

ZERO career milestones. ZERO Gold Gloves. ZERO playoff success. ZERO rings. ZERO pop culture relevance.

How many times did he lead the AL in RBIs, HRs, AVG, etc?

So he's 31 and done, case closed. Got it. Ok. Like I said, I don't think he's a top 10 or even 15 guy but top 50, quite possibly...and there aren't many players over the last 50 years that fit into that bucket.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by atk825

The nice thing with standardized stats is that it accounts for era.

Only so much adjustment can be applied. The weaker the pitching, the higher the upper bound of batting achievements you’ll see. This issue becomes more obvious when you look over longer periods of time. Yes, you get outlier seasons like 2022 Judge. But consider that the last player to do consecutive OPS+ 200 seasons while not using steroids was Mantle in 1956 and 1957. Babe had a 14 year stretch where he did it 11 times.

[theshowandme]

Let me pose a hypothetical…

At the end of Ty Cobb’s life he said that Willie Mays was the only player he would pay admission to see play.

That was the once greatest player of all time talking about the eventual GOAT.

So let’s say Cobb, Ruth, Ted Williams, Mantle, Aaron, and Mays are having dinner. Mike Trout is on television. Do you think they’re talking about his f***ing WAR or do you think they’re all marveling at how much of a stud he is?

It doesn’t matter where we hold him in the rankings, what matters is what Trout’s peers think and his peers will someday be the GOATs. Something tells me the GOATs would admire Mike Trout’s talent


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[Jsquared123]

Originally Posted by eephuspitch

Respectfully, Jackie isn't on that list. Was he a transcendent player? Without question. But statistically speaking he's not in this sort of conversation. Neither is Trout.

I would take Jackie and Clemente out and put in Hornsby, Dimaggio and Speaker. Everyone sleeps on Tris. His WAR totals are higher than you'd think.

[atk825]

I saw a list regarding Mookie getting to 60 WAR in his first 9 seasons. It was a list of 28 offensive players, which I think is a pretty good guide to who is inner circle. It's obviously not perfect but my goodness, what a list.

Trout, Pujols, A-Rod, Griffey, Bagwell, Bonds, Boggs, Schmidt, Rickey, Yaz, Aaron, Mantle, Mathews, Frank Robinson, Mays, Ted Williams, Musial, Arky Vaughan, DiMaggio, Mize, Gehrig, Hornsby, Ruth, Speaker, Eddie Collins, Cobb, Honus Wagner.

There's a few names that you can give or take to get to the inner circle best offensive players but 28 players over a 154 season stretch isn't too big of a list to be considered inner circle.

[eephuspitch]

Originally Posted by atk825

Almost as if there's a reason why he didn't debut until his age 28 season...

Jackie is arguably the most recognizable baseball player than perhaps Babe Ruth, he rightfully has a special place in baseball (and sports history). But he's not a top 15 greatest players of all time. I'm sorry.

And neither will Trout be.

[atk825]

Originally Posted by SupermanBrandon

Inner circle is legendary, God like status. Inner circle isn't just about stats (which Trout doesn't really have, and wont).

Dude is 85 WAR through his age 31 season. That you are writing him off is pretty funny.