PSA "Newton's Rings" and eBay Buyer Returns

Sonnys88 · 07-28-2023, 02:25 PM

Just had a return opened for a freshly graded PSA 9 Kobe Bryant refractor because it is showing the extremely common "Newton's rings" that alot of Chrome and Finest cards show in PSA holders. The card was graded less than 2 weeks ago.

The buyer's reason in the return was "Card has significant damage not pictured (obscured by listed photo) or noted… so blatant it couldn’t possibly have been overlooked. On the card, not the slab."

I sent the buyer a message letting them know it is not damage and a link to a PSA article about the rings. But, they responded that they are returning anyway. The ebay buyer is bestoffer_sportscards if anyone wants to know.

You have to wonder how many unwarranted returns are happening because buyers are uneducated / unable to understand what they are seeing. It seems like a very simple thing for a person to figure out as the "rings" move around if you touch the surface (not sure what kind of "damage" would do that), but since PSA was getting tons of inquiries about it - I guess not.

Anyone else have a buyer try to return because of "Newton's rings"?

DynaEtch · 07-28-2023, 02:43 PM

I didn’t realize Newton rings were much a thing in card slabs. In CGC comic slabs it’s a commonplace issue with the newer generation slabs.

I see your side of this- it’s not damage to the card….I’m also not surprised eBay would side with buyer for a return (unlikely for eBay to stop that if buyer saying INAD).

Tbh when I’m selling a comic that has significant Newton rings, I do try to mention it in description. I get that it’s not damage, but they can in fact detract from the visual appeal of a book with a whole bunch of splotches covering the front cover. I generally try to side with caution in that instance as a seller….just because I don’t want to deal with surprised buyers. Again though…with cards…ehhh haven’t seen it be a huge issue like comics.

checkoutmydeals · 07-30-2023, 10:08 AM

I had no idea what a Newton's Ring was, so I looked it up and found this thread from CGC Comics in 2018.

https://boards.cgccomics.com/topic/440951-newton-rings/

My general thinking is that if your graded card appears to have significant blotches on it, even if it's an optical illusion, it should be mentioned in the description. This is similar to the way you would mention a cracked or significantly scuffed holder.

As mentioned, it isn't technically "damage", but it does detract from the visual appeal of the card. If the card is several hundred or several thousand dollars, then visual appeal is an important factor. If the prospective buyer is going to be disappointed, it's better that they're disappointed before they buy, rather than after.

It's important to manage the customer's expectations. It's better to underpromise and overdeliver than the other way around.

shrevecity · 07-30-2023, 10:13 AM

I agree if it's visible it should be disclosed. If I se it as a detracting issue and it's not disclosed it's going back

thenightman · 07-30-2023, 03:50 PM

I once had a guy return a PSA 10 Ohtani card because the slab had scratches. I accepted the return and two weeks later sold it for more money. The moral of the story is, if you have a buyer wanting to return a card for a common reason that wouldn't bother most people, just accept the return. There's someone else out there that'll want the card, they'll be well aware of the issue, and won't care.

boxbuster7 · 07-30-2023, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenightman

I once had a guy return a PSA 10 Ohtani card because the slab had scratches. I accepted the return and two weeks later sold it for more money. The moral of the story is, if you have a buyer wanting to return a card for a common reason that wouldn't bother most people, just accept the return. There's someone else out there that'll want the card, they'll be well aware of the issue, and won't care.

I'd say a scratched slab is a reasonable reason to return a card

DynaEtch · 07-30-2023, 06:35 PM

Obvious scratches/cracks on slabs are worse than Newton rings for most people I would think.

I will say, most sellers of CGC comics don’t bother to mention Newton rings in my experience. It’s sort of understood that it’s common in newer generation slabs, and it doesn’t affect the book. I still will mention them when they are obvious, but I don’t think a lot of sellers do.

Personally, I think its a bit much for a buyer to return a graded card just because some Newton rings. But you know how eBay works and INAD, they almost certainly will side with buyer for return in a case like this. I can see why some sellers might choose not to deal with a buyer making such a return.

Sonnys88 · 07-31-2023, 08:07 AM

For me it was more that the buyer claimed that the card had "significant damage" when in fact it has no damage at all. The card touching against the PSA case and creating an optical illusion is not damage. A buyer can pretty much find a way to return anything on eBay, but just don't like it when it is a false reason about the item's condition - I'd rather them say "changed my mind - don't want it."

I buy and sell a lot of 1990s refractors, so I've seen the illusion many times and it does not bother me as I understand what causes it. The "Newton's rings" started to occur more when PSA changed over to their new holder style and that is when they posted some official info about it.

I'd say that lately out of every 10 PSA graded refractors I handle - 2 or 3 have some sort of "Newton's ring" effect showing - so surprised there aren't more mentions of it. Or maybe most just don't notice it or think it is a big deal.

JeffG1954 · 07-31-2023, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sonnys88

Just had a return opened for a freshly graded PSA 9 Kobe Bryant refractor because it is showing the extremely common "Newton's rings" that alot of Chrome and Finest cards show in PSA holders. The card was graded less than 2 weeks ago.

The buyer's reason in the return was "Card has significant damage not pictured (obscured by listed photo) or noted… so blatant it couldn’t possibly have been overlooked. On the card, not the slab."

I sent the buyer a message letting them know it is not damage and a link to a PSA article about the rings. But, they responded that they are returning anyway. The ebay buyer is bestoffer_sportscards if anyone wants to know.

You have to wonder how many unwarranted returns are happening because buyers are uneducated / unable to understand what they are seeing. It seems like a very simple thing for a person to figure out as the "rings" move around if you touch the surface (not sure what kind of "damage" would do that), but since PSA was getting tons of inquiries about it - I guess not.

Anyone else have a buyer try to return because of "Newton's rings"?

In your eBay listings, do you accept returns?

shrevecity · 07-31-2023, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sonnys88

For me it was more that the buyer claimed that the card had "significant damage" when in fact it has no damage at all. The card touching against the PSA case and creating an optical illusion is not damage. A buyer can pretty much find a way to return anything on eBay, but just don't like it when it is a false reason about the item's condition - I'd rather them say "changed my mind - don't want it."

I buy and sell a lot of 1990s refractors, so I've seen the illusion many times and it does not bother me as I understand what causes it. The "Newton's rings" started to occur more when PSA changed over to their new holder style and that is when they posted some official info about it.

I'd say that lately out of every 10 PSA graded refractors I handle - 2 or 3 have some sort of "Newton's ring" effect showing - so surprised there aren't more mentions of it. Or maybe most just don't notice it or think it is a big deal.

You have to think like the buyer though not on your own preferences. Wye appeal for me is huge and if it's bad and not disclosed then to me it's not as described

thenightman · 07-31-2023, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boxbuster7

I'd say a scratched slab is a reasonable reason to return a card

That's my point. You care, but others don't care. The first guy told me he didn't want to pay to have it reslabbed. The second guy said it doesn't matter because he can always pay to have it reslabbed.

DynaEtch · 07-31-2023, 09:38 AM

If you accept returns….it’s basically a total moot point. Buyer could return for basically no reason at all, including change mind. Unless your point is you just don’t like the reason they selected….but does that really matter. The return comes back to you and you refund regardless.

As for the Newton rings….I don’t get it with these new holders. Somehow CGC (and I guess now PSA) managed to regress in that area with new holders. Tons of people were complaining in comics and Im pretty sure I that criticism didn’t go down well with CGC. They said it’s been going on since the original holders…but if you ask anyone in comics, they will say it’s a much, much more prominent issue in newer generation holders. I’ve heard it’s because how snug they are…not sure if that’s the reason for uptick in NRs or not. Either way it’s a lot worse in newer slabs.

JeffG1954 · 07-31-2023, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DynaEtch

If you accept returns….it’s basically a total moot point. Buyer could return for basically no reason at all, including change mind. Unless your point is you just don’t like the reason they selected….but does that really matter. The return comes back to you and you refund regardless.

And that accepted return even includes after it has gone thru the eBay Authenticity Program.....it is not a final sale if you accept returns.

boxbuster7 · 07-31-2023, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenightman

That's my point. You care, but others don't care. The first guy told me he didn't want to pay to have it reslabbed. The second guy said it doesn't matter because he can always pay to have it reslabbed.

I mean of all the crazy reasons ebay buyers have to return items, a scratched slab is actually is legitimate. But I hear what you're saying..its why we have mike baker grading graded cards

- there really is no "standard" as things do happen with collectibles.

thenightman · 07-31-2023, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boxbuster7

I mean of all the crazy reasons ebay buyers have to return items, a scratched slab is actually is legitimate. But I hear what you're saying..its why we have mike baker grading graded cards

- there really is no "standard" as things do happen with collectibles.

Oh, I totally agree. Returning a slab because there were scratches that weren't as noticeable in the picture, but upon inspection are too much is a legit reason; that's why I accepted the return with no trouble.

I think the funniest part about it, though, was the fact that it was an Ohtani RC PSA 10. It's kinda like, you get a card at a good price, pay the extra $15 to get it reslabbed (or whatever the cost is). It's not like it was a junk slab.

07-28-2023, 02:25 PM	#1
Sonnys88 Member Join Date: Jun 2018 Posts: 800 Sonnys88	PSA "Newton's Rings" and eBay Buyer Returns Just had a return opened for a freshly graded PSA 9 Kobe Bryant refractor because it is showing the extremely common "Newton's rings" that alot of Chrome and Finest cards show in PSA holders. The card was graded less than 2 weeks ago. The buyer's reason in the return was "Card has significant damage not pictured (obscured by listed photo) or noted… so blatant it couldn’t possibly have been overlooked. On the card, not the slab." I sent the buyer a message letting them know it is not damage and a link to a PSA article about the rings. But, they responded that they are returning anyway. The ebay buyer is bestoffer_sportscards if anyone wants to know. You have to wonder how many unwarranted returns are happening because buyers are uneducated / unable to understand what they are seeing. It seems like a very simple thing for a person to figure out as the "rings" move around if you touch the surface (not sure what kind of "damage" would do that), but since PSA was getting tons of inquiries about it - I guess not. Anyone else have a buyer try to return because of "Newton's rings"?

07-28-2023, 02:43 PM	#2
DynaEtch Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 9,907	PSA "Newton's Rings" and eBay Buyer Returns I didn’t realize Newton rings were much a thing in card slabs. In CGC comic slabs it’s a commonplace issue with the newer generation slabs. I see your side of this- it’s not damage to the card….I’m also not surprised eBay would side with buyer for a return (unlikely for eBay to stop that if buyer saying INAD). Tbh when I’m selling a comic that has significant Newton rings, I do try to mention it in description. I get that it’s not damage, but they can in fact detract from the visual appeal of a book with a whole bunch of splotches covering the front cover. I generally try to side with caution in that instance as a seller….just because I don’t want to deal with surprised buyers. Again though…with cards…ehhh haven’t seen it be a huge issue like comics. __________________ ~~~ '90s trading cards === Golden Era ~~~

07-30-2023, 06:35 PM	#7
DynaEtch Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 9,907	Obvious scratches/cracks on slabs are worse than Newton rings for most people I would think. I will say, most sellers of CGC comics don’t bother to mention Newton rings in my experience. It’s sort of understood that it’s common in newer generation slabs, and it doesn’t affect the book. I still will mention them when they are obvious, but I don’t think a lot of sellers do. Personally, I think its a bit much for a buyer to return a graded card just because some Newton rings. But you know how eBay works and INAD, they almost certainly will side with buyer for return in a case like this. I can see why some sellers might choose not to deal with a buyer making such a return. __________________ ~~~ '90s trading cards === Golden Era ~~~

07-31-2023, 09:38 AM	#12
DynaEtch Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 9,907	If you accept returns….it’s basically a total moot point. Buyer could return for basically no reason at all, including change mind. Unless your point is you just don’t like the reason they selected….but does that really matter. The return comes back to you and you refund regardless. As for the Newton rings….I don’t get it with these new holders. Somehow CGC (and I guess now PSA) managed to regress in that area with new holders. Tons of people were complaining in comics and Im pretty sure I that criticism didn’t go down well with CGC. They said it’s been going on since the original holders…but if you ask anyone in comics, they will say it’s a much, much more prominent issue in newer generation holders. I’ve heard it’s because how snug they are…not sure if that’s the reason for uptick in NRs or not. Either way it’s a lot worse in newer slabs. __________________ ~~~ '90s trading cards === Golden Era ~~~

07-30-2023, 10:08 AM	#3
checkoutmydeals Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: USA Posts: 3,102 king-collect checkoutmydeals	I had no idea what a Newton's Ring was, so I looked it up and found this thread from CGC Comics in 2018. https://boards.cgccomics.com/topic/440951-newton-rings/ My general thinking is that if your graded card appears to have significant blotches on it, even if it's an optical illusion, it should be mentioned in the description. This is similar to the way you would mention a cracked or significantly scuffed holder. As mentioned, it isn't technically "damage", but it does detract from the visual appeal of the card. If the card is several hundred or several thousand dollars, then visual appeal is an important factor. If the prospective buyer is going to be disappointed, it's better that they're disappointed before they buy, rather than after. It's important to manage the customer's expectations. It's better to underpromise and overdeliver than the other way around.

07-30-2023, 10:13 AM	#4
shrevecity Member Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 28,059	I agree if it's visible it should be disclosed. If I se it as a detracting issue and it's not disclosed it's going back

07-30-2023, 03:50 PM	#5
thenightman Member Join Date: Feb 2018 Posts: 6,859	I once had a guy return a PSA 10 Ohtani card because the slab had scratches. I accepted the return and two weeks later sold it for more money. The moral of the story is, if you have a buyer wanting to return a card for a common reason that wouldn't bother most people, just accept the return. There's someone else out there that'll want the card, they'll be well aware of the issue, and won't care.

07-31-2023, 08:07 AM	#8
Sonnys88 Member Join Date: Jun 2018 Posts: 800 Sonnys88	For me it was more that the buyer claimed that the card had "significant damage" when in fact it has no damage at all. The card touching against the PSA case and creating an optical illusion is not damage. A buyer can pretty much find a way to return anything on eBay, but just don't like it when it is a false reason about the item's condition - I'd rather them say "changed my mind - don't want it." I buy and sell a lot of 1990s refractors, so I've seen the illusion many times and it does not bother me as I understand what causes it. The "Newton's rings" started to occur more when PSA changed over to their new holder style and that is when they posted some official info about it. I'd say that lately out of every 10 PSA graded refractors I handle - 2 or 3 have some sort of "Newton's ring" effect showing - so surprised there aren't more mentions of it. Or maybe most just don't notice it or think it is a big deal.