[Rovell] NFLPA terminates relationship with Panini effective immediately

[Metsfan1991]

Originally Posted by mossoholic

BO hasn't had a buy list in over a year. I could be wrong but pretty sure BO is paying the lowest they have ever paid for points right now. They were paying more when new wax was less than 35% what they are charging for it on many products now. They are paying 3 cents a point and its only store credit. That is essentially worth well under 3 cents a point.

I could care less what they are paying. They are still
Buying , even if it’s deemed a low rate(store credit).

[Fenway55]

Originally Posted by auburn35

Arbitration.

https://www.actionnetwork.com/nfl/pa...se-to-fanatics


- Boies said his clients were blindsided by the NFLPA's transition to Fanatics, indicating that Panini and the NFLPA had spoken as recently as a few weeks ago. Sources said NFLPA representation was in Panini's offices just three weeks ago.

Panini still lists the NFLPA as a partner on its website.

The only way the NFLPA could immediately terminate the deal with no selloff period is if there was a material breach in the contract.

"The suggested breach is over 'a change in control,'" Boies said, referencing that the contract has a provision that states that if there is a management change, the NFLPA can terminate its deal.

"The decision was made in the best interest of all players and we are not discussing anything beyond that at this time," NFLPA spokesman George Atallah told the Action Network on Wednesday. A Fanatics spokesman declined comment.

Interesting that the NFLPA is not pursuing an injunction. That tells me that they don't think they have a solid case.

[Grid]

Originally Posted by mossoholic

By acquiring Panini's debts Im talking about the unfulfilled redemptions, points not used, and blockchain cards not fulfilled. Realistically Fanatics would have to take them because there is no way Panini can satisfy all those outstanding debts. Those packs you speak of, which they seemingly only did because of the at the time pending Fanatics deal, were a drop in the bucket of what Panini owes customers in those 3 areas. Now had Panini been sending out all kinds of different packs over the last year like they should have been doing a bunch of that would be done with. I know in 1 case for me I offered to take packs for a card I've had in for now over a year and they refused to let me trade it for anything period.

If a sale is going to still happen I'd be stunned if it's not this year. In that small amount of time Panini can't fulfill what they owe. It looks like Panini should just swallow their pride and take what they can now. Because if NBAPA does the same thing they will end up having to sell basketball and football related lines for pretty much nothing just to get out of what they still owe customers.

They can make an asset purchase, instead of purchasing the entire business. You would only buy the entire business, to run the entire business. And Fanatics has Topps already. They dont need Panini America to make cards. They would want Panini America, to go away and to gain their assets like IP's and legacy, as I stated.

They would not inherit Panini's debts and liabilities. Nor would they gain any of Panini's past receivers due.

[Grid]

Originally Posted by auburn35

Arbitration.

https://www.actionnetwork.com/nfl/pa...se-to-fanatics


- Boies said his clients were blindsided by the NFLPA's transition to Fanatics, indicating that Panini and the NFLPA had spoken as recently as a few weeks ago. Sources said NFLPA representation was in Panini's offices just three weeks ago.

Panini still lists the NFLPA as a partner on its website.

The only way the NFLPA could immediately terminate the deal with no selloff period is if there was a material breach in the contract.

"The suggested breach is over 'a change in control,'" Boies said, referencing that the contract has a provision that states that if there is a management change, the NFLPA can terminate its deal.

"The decision was made in the best interest of all players and we are not discussing anything beyond that at this time," NFLPA spokesman George Atallah told the Action Network on Wednesday. A Fanatics spokesman declined comment.

Its worth noting, that this is not the only deal Lloyd Howell has canceled or changed since he took office.

The NFL Players Association has largely been quiet since naming Lloyd Howell the union's next executive director in late June. Its public proclamations mostly have come from adjustments to business arrangements.

[mossoholic]

Originally Posted by Grid

They can make an asset purchase, instead of purchasing the entire business. You would only buy the entire business, to run the entire business. And Fanatics has Topps already. They dont need Panini America to make cards. They would want Panini America, to go away and to gain their assets like IP's and legacy, as I stated.

They would not inherit Panini's debts and liabilities. Nor would they gain any of Panini's past receivers due.

Panini would be fine with keeping all that and dealing with countless lawsuits from customers? There are single buyers with tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of redemptions and points. You think those customers are going to accept Nascar and soccer stuff from upper 5 and 6 figures worth of football and basketball items they are due? I doubt it but what do I know. This is only an issue if the NBAPA does the same as the NFLPA. Because right now they could still do basketball replacements.

[mossoholic]

Originally Posted by Metsfan1991

I could care less what they are paying. They are still
Buying , even if it’s deemed a low rate(store credit).

Minus the week or two after Covid, I think any buyer in the sports card industry would buy any product if the price is right. Im sure as heck not looking to buy more points. But if I got them at a price that I thought was worth the risk I'd buy more. I'm not looking to buy Zion or Ja Morant cards. If I got offers to buy them at the right price I'd buy them. I'm not interested in 2019 football wax but if the price is right I'll buy it. I'm just a small time guy and have no Panini money tree to endlessly pick from like BO does. That store credit even if by some very unlikely situation of someone wanting to sell them 100,000 points what is $3k in store credit to BO? Most likely that $3,000 credit would be spent on products that BO paid Panini under $1,000 for.

[ArmyDC]

Originally Posted by Grid

The last minute wording, that caused the deal to not happen. Is listed in the actual lawsuit filing. Fanatics knew the scam Panini was running, and wanted to base the payoff on their own "real world numbers".

https://fingfx.thomsonreuters.com/gf...23-cv-6895.pdf

In a nutshell, section 9. Panini got caught falsifying earnings projections, which would have made Fanatics pay more to them as an early termination fee. IE, if you want the license now, you must pay us the profit we would lose, if we stopped making cards sooner.

This is how its worded in the counter suit

In fact, Fanatics eventually learned through private discussions with the CEO of Panini America that Panini itself was relying on a different, materially lower set of accurate, updated figures for its own internal use while still feeding Fanatics the pumped-up projections

And since Panini wanted to use their own fake projections, and not those of Fanatics, the deal was off the table.

Sounds like how Gojo was goosing their subscription numbers during their acquisition of Waystar.

[oldgoldy97]

Originally Posted by ohio_mba

Breakers days could be numbered. If speculation is true that Panini under-reported sales to avoid royalties to the league, then surely those sales numbers will be looked into further.

Paper trail goes right to breakers.

But the breakers would never lie!

[wubh]

Originally Posted by auburn35

Arbitration.

https://www.actionnetwork.com/nfl/pa...se-to-fanatics


- Boies said his clients were blindsided by the NFLPA's transition to Fanatics, indicating that Panini and the NFLPA had spoken as recently as a few weeks ago. Sources said NFLPA representation was in Panini's offices just three weeks ago.

Panini still lists the NFLPA as a partner on its website.

The only way the NFLPA could immediately terminate the deal with no selloff period is if there was a material breach in the contract.

"The suggested breach is over 'a change in control,'" Boies said, referencing that the contract has a provision that states that if there is a management change, the NFLPA can terminate its deal.

"The decision was made in the best interest of all players and we are not discussing anything beyond that at this time," NFLPA spokesman George Atallah told the Action Network on Wednesday. A Fanatics spokesman declined comment.

Interesting that David Boies will represent Panini as he/his law firm might be the most prominent (and expensive) firm in the entire country so they'll at least have good representation in this battle.

[Fenway55]

Originally Posted by wubh

Interesting that David Boies will represent Panini as he/his law firm might be the most prominent (and expensive) firm in the entire country so they'll at least have good representation in this battle.

He also represented Theranos, and half their leadership is now in jail....

[anusinha]

Originally Posted by Fenway55

He also represented Theranos, and half their leadership is now in jail....

They got off super light, considering they stole billions and probably killed a few people in the process

[coupie21]

Originally Posted by njsportscardguy

We can...."split, hairs",....from now until next Tuesday on the topic; what we're seeing here (again, admittedly; with legal-technicalities, aside!) is effectively,...a LEGAL MONOPOLIZATION on a multi-hundred million dollar industry!

As someone stated in the first, few posts,...Be careful what you wish for, folks! When they get us by the 'you know whats', then they've got us by the 'you know whats'! And it ain't EVER, fun....when someone's gotcha' by the 'you know whats'!

This! Fanatics is essentially doing to Panini what it is eventually going to do to the collector. The "collector" can either adapt and deal with increased prices, overproduced product, etc...or, get out!

[IronCladLou]

Originally Posted by coupie21

This! Fanatics is essentially doing to Panini what it is eventually going to do to the collector. The "collector" can either adapt and deal with increased prices, overproduced product, etc...or, get out!

Or buy singles!

Hell, it might work better for me. I will stop breaking and buying overpriced wax and buy the cards i want.

[Fenway55]

Originally Posted by anusinha

They got off super light, considering they stole billions and probably killed a few people in the process

He wasn’t their defense attorney. He was the corporate lawyer.

[itsbaytime]

Originally Posted by ArmyDC

Sounds like how Gojo was goosing their subscription numbers during their acquisition of Waystar.

Succession FTW!!!

[Grid]

Originally Posted by mossoholic

Panini would be fine with keeping all that and dealing with countless lawsuits from customers? There are single buyers with tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of redemptions and points. You think those customers are going to accept Nascar and soccer stuff from upper 5 and 6 figures worth of football and basketball items they are due? I doubt it but what do I know. This is only an issue if the NBAPA does the same as the NFLPA. Because right now they could still do basketball replacements.

Panini wouldn't have a choice. They don't have to be fine with anything. It would be them maximizing a sale. Unless they can find another buyer to pay more (they wouldn't) who would want the entire business, which is worth a fraction of what Panini was making with their licenses.

And lets be honest, no one is going to sue Panini over points cards. Countless collectors, paying out of pocket, to sue over what? All Panini has to do is maintain SOMETHING in there store, that the points can be used for. Be it soccer, nascar, WWE or moldy old fruit. That is their out, as those points are just store credit. And they never promised they would be good for a certain card, brand or sport. They just have to give you something, anything, and they are legally fine. They can even bump up the point cost as well, forcing collectors to spend 50,000 points, on a card that used to be 500. No where have they ever guaranteed any set value patterns. They can screw people hard if they wanted to, and completely water down the value of those points.

Redemption cards are a bit trickier, and that is why they were sending out all those packs last year to satisfy those IOU's. But even then, per the terms stated on each redemption. Panini can substitute any card owed, with another card. And the card values are at Panini's own discretion. If Panini cannot make a card of that player, they have an out to send you "something" of equal value. The only reason why any business would play nice in all of this, is that they hope to maintain business. But if Panini is cashing out, they dont care if they lost a customer.

So what are countless people suing for? The best they can hope for is a class action suit. And even then, Panini will claim they lost the license, which renders them unable to produce said cards, and they legally couldn't make any to satisfy these creditors.

Edit to add:
It is not a matter of what the collectors wants. Its a matter of what a collector can get in a court of law. Panini could very well sell off their assets, file Chapter 13 to reorganize, and shed those debts.

[packman80]

Originally Posted by Grid

Panini wouldn't have a choice. They don't have to be fine with anything. It would be them maximizing a sale. Unless they can find another buyer to pay more (they wouldn't) who would want the entire business, which is worth a fraction of what Panini was making with their licenses.

And lets be honest, no one is going to sue Panini over points cards. Countless collectors, paying out of pocket, to sue over what? All Panini has to do is maintain SOMETHING in there store, that the points can be used for. Be it soccer, nascar, WWE or moldy old fruit. That is their out, as those points are just store credit. And they never promised they would be good for a certain card, brand or sport. They just have to give you something, anything, and they are legally fine. They can even bump up the point cost as well, forcing collectors to spend 50,000 points, on a card that used to be 500. No where have they ever guaranteed any set value patterns. They can screw people hard if they wanted to, and completely water down the value of those points.

Redemption cards are a bit trickier, and that is why they were sending out all those packs last year to satisfy those IOU's. But even then, per the terms stated on each redemption. Panini can substitute any card owed, with another card. And the card values are at Panini's own discretion. If Panini cannot make a card of that player, they have an out to send you "something" of equal value. The only reason why any business would play nice in all of this, is that they hope to maintain business. But if Panini is cashing out, they dont care if they lost a customer.

So what are countless people suing for? The best they can hope for is a class action suit. And even then, Panini will claim they lost the license, which renders them unable to produce said cards, and they legally couldn't make any to satisfy these creditors.

Edit to add:
It is not a matter of what the collectors wants. Its a matter of what a collector can get in a court of law. Panini could very well sell off their assets, file Chapter 13 to reorganize, and shed those debts.

Yep this is why I have been saying for last year when people complain about replacement redemption they get. I just say Panini is going under they are clearing out what they got in stock. Any outstanding redemptions will be given anything they got so they can say they fullfilled their end by giving the customer a card.

[casebreaksllc]

Originally Posted by BayAreaChris

I’ll take your word for it but this makes zero sense to me.

They are printing cardboard en masse. Packaging doesn’t seem that crazy. Manual labor seems limited except for autos / sticker application.

Also if distribution prices have increased by say 50% and now there is more direct to consumer which is 2x distribution prices, that should just flow to the product margin.

Maybe if most printing is US and labor costs have increased that’s hurting margin.

And again I’m talking product margin which shouldn’t include shipping, licensing, etc.

they also have to pay the players for their autographs and the league their royalties/fees

[casebreaksllc]

Originally Posted by jkampis

I own a hobby shop with a direct Topps account and I’ve heard none of that. Certainly, one would have thought any such changes would have occurred when they had us sign new agreements literally just a few weeks ago.

living under a rock!? topps sent many new outlined terms to all direct accounts a few months back, some of which they sort of walked back in a subsequent zoom call.

[Siberian13]

So when Fanatics takes over will box prices be higher, lower or the same?

[SearchPatrol]

Originally Posted by Siberian13

So when Fanatics takes over will box prices be higher, lower or the same?

Why would they go down? Don't they sell-out at current prices?

[clocsta2323]

David Boies is on a very short list of best litigators in the country. Panini ain't messing around and lawyers of his caliber don't take cases unless there is a solid argument to be made

[Fenway55]

Originally Posted by clocsta2323

David Boies is on a very short list of best litigators in the country. Panini ain't messing around and lawyers of his caliber don't take cases unless there is a solid argument to be made

That explains why he worked for Theranos? David Boies will take any case from any company that has money.

[Siberian13]

Originally Posted by SearchPatrol

Why would they go down? Don't they sell-out at current prices?

So higher or the same?

[ninjacookies]

So...incoming 2-3 years of Leaf vs. Leaf vs. Leaf r/photoshopbattles?

Logos are for law abiding cucks anyways.


I'm here for it.