[Rovell] NFLPA terminates relationship with Panini effective immediately

[Grid]

Originally Posted by Crosby 87

I gotta know who is dropping 6k for a Devin Lloyd gamer

Sadly, its part of their posturing. They will start this stuff out high. That way, it looks like a deal when they offer a 25% off promo code. If that doesn't work, they will put it in clearance mode. And if that still doesn't sell, they will flip it to one of their weekly auctions they run. If you notice, some of that game used stuff shows an auction hammer. Those are set to go to the highest bidder soon.

My gut says, they will handle card releases much the same. Start out at the current ceiling we are seeing now. Then promo code, sale and eventual dump via Dutch Auction. All at different stages throughout each sports seasons.

That way, they wont be left holding the bag on anything. Its a business model they are currently doing with other collectables.

[regularp]

Might have missed it but I haven't seen anything about Panini filing an injunction. They have a bunch of stuff still listed as "coming soon" and Blowout has all their pre-orders back up. I take it they're going to continue on as usual? What's going on?

[ohio_mba]

Originally Posted by regularp

Might have missed it but I haven't seen anything about Panini filing an injunction. They have a bunch of stuff still listed as "coming soon" and Blowout has all their pre-orders back up. I take it they're going to continue on as usual? What's going on?

If I were to guess Panini is deciding to sell anyway. The profit they make from doing so will probably still be greater than the settlement they'd pay if sued for selling.

[cholodolo]

Originally Posted by regularp

Might have missed it but I haven't seen anything about Panini filing an injunction. They have a bunch of stuff still listed as "coming soon" and Blowout has all their pre-orders back up. I take it they're going to continue on as usual? What's going on?

Believe it was speculated there is language in the contract allowing them 60-90 days to sell off any already produced sets/products. NFLPA can't stop them from selling what was produced while the license was in effect.

They will also be going to arbitration.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by ohio_mba

If I were to guess Panini is deciding to sell anyway. The profit they make from doing so will probably still be greater than the settlement they'd pay if sued for selling.

I'm pretty sure the NFLPA's termination was meant to pressure Panini to sell their licenses early to Fanatics. If the NFLPA wins in arbitration, the expectation is the league will follow suit.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by cholodolo

Believe it was speculated there is language in the contract allowing them 60-90 days to sell off any already produced sets/products. NFLPA can't stop them from selling what was produced while the license was in effect.

They will also be going to arbitration.

Yeah, because a certain number of releases were already approved by the NFLPA. Those are the ones presumably on the release schedule.

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by cholodolo

It would be extremely difficult to get game used jerseys from each player. Players like to keep them, trade them, and gift them. Think it will have to be something along the lines of what Upper Deck does with the NHL -- they could have changed it, but a few years ago it was revealed the deal was each TEAM would provide three (3) game used jerseys per season. Now, some individual players have separate deals (recall a rookie for Philly or Pittsburgh a few years ago being late for the start of a period due to having to change his jersey a 3rd time).

They get a lot more than that. They give the teams a wish list of five players and they get three jerseys per player. So up to fifteen gamers from each team every season. Sometimes they get individual jerseys worn by a player for three whole games, sometimes the player changes jerseys every period and the three come from the one game. Seems to vary by team.

You can look through Meigray population reports and see (of the teams Meigray works with at least) which players wore jerseys for UD and on which dates, by scrolling the over and reading the comments. It’ll say something like “Promo jersey worn on __/__/____ as part of NHL - Upper Deck Agreement” or something along those lines. Most seem to be worn for one period each but there are some that were worn for an entire game.

The Carolina Hurricanes are one team that does it by the period as there was a game last season where a player came out for the second period and fans noticed the logo on the jersey was upside down. A beat reporter asked around and found out it was because the player had to wear jerseys for Upper Deck that night and the 2nd period one happened to have a misplaced logo.

This is why we can get game used rookie patches in late season high end products like Premier and The Cup. And why they can make a set like Mega Patches in Premier that cut up a whole logo just for one set. When you get three McDavid gamers for example you can afford to put one logo aside for the Mega Patch set and use the other two in other products. Outside of those high end sets most rookie stuff is still event worn or whatever but any other active player is going to be game worn. It’s been this way since Panini got bounced in 2014 and UD got the exclusive back with a new deal.

They had the foresight to work an agreement for game used right into the deal so they’d always have a constant supply from every team. Surely a company as big as Fanatics could do the same if they really wanted to.

[cholodolo]

Originally Posted by Inferno

They get a lot more than that. They give the teams a wish list of five players and they get three jerseys per player. So up to fifteen gamers from each team every season. Sometimes they get individual jerseys worn by a player for three whole games, sometimes the player changes jerseys every period and the three come from the one game. Seems to vary by team.

You can look through Meigray population reports and see (of the teams Meigray works with at least) which players wore jerseys for UD and on which dates, by scrolling the over and reading the comments. It’ll say something like “Promo jersey worn on __/__/____ as part of NHL - Upper Deck Agreement” or something along those lines. Most seem to be worn for one period each but there are some that were worn for an entire game.

The Carolina Hurricanes are one team that does it by the period as there was a game last season where a player came out for the second period and fans noticed the logo on the jersey was upside down. A beat reporter asked around and found out it was because the player had to wear jerseys for Upper Deck that night and the 2nd period one happened to have a misplaced logo.

This is why we can get game used rookie patches in late season high end products like Premier and The Cup. And why they can make a set like Mega Patches in Premier that cut up a whole logo just for one set. When you get three McDavid gamers for example you can afford to put one logo aside for the Mega Patch set and use the other two in other products. Outside of those high end sets most rookie stuff is still event worn or whatever but any other active player is going to be game worn. It’s been this way since Panini got bounced in 2014 and UD got the exclusive back with a new deal.

They had the foresight to work an agreement for game used right into the deal so they’d always have a constant supply from every team. Surely a company as big as Fanatics could do the same if they really wanted to.

Gracias, Inferno -- great information. 3 per player, not per team -- thanks for clearing that up. I'd imagine teams would decline requests for gamers from every player on the roster as suggested above given the roster size difference to start.

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by cholodolo

Gracias, Inferno -- great information. 3 per player, not per team -- thanks for clearing that up. I'd imagine teams would decline requests for gamers from every player on the roster as suggested above given the roster size difference to start.

Yeah from what I’ve gathered they can ask for a handful of players and the team tries to accommodate. I would think they’ll ask for two or three of the biggest stars on the team, maybe a goalie, and any hot rookie the team happens to have that season. Like how Kaprizov and Lafreniere had game used Megas and Limited Logos in 2020-21 Premier and The Cup.

Sometimes they can’t get certain guys because of injuries or whatever. Seems most of these gamers, at least the ones I’ve seen on Meigray reports, are used in games in December so if a player happens to be injured in the first few months of the season they might not get the jerseys they want. At least not in time to get them cut and into the late season sets. I’m guessing they have some sort of deadline to get the jerseys used and in-house by the new year.

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by regularp

Might have missed it but I haven't seen anything about Panini filing an injunction. They have a bunch of stuff still listed as "coming soon" and Blowout has all their pre-orders back up. I take it they're going to continue on as usual? What's going on?

Originally Posted by ohio_mba

If I were to guess Panini is deciding to sell anyway. The profit they make from doing so will probably still be greater than the settlement they'd pay if sued for selling.

Originally Posted by cholodolo

Believe it was speculated there is language in the contract allowing them 60-90 days to sell off any already produced sets/products. NFLPA can't stop them from selling what was produced while the license was in effect.

They will also be going to arbitration.

Looks like Panini trying to go the arbitration route. They are simply ignoring the NFLPA. I mean, why not.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl...al/ar-AA1fInAb

https://www.actionnetwork.com/nfl/pa...se-to-fanatics

[rmw10]

Panini not holding back. They've signed a couple of college players to exclusive card deals, and also pulled a good portion of the top MLB draft picks. They seem pretty confident in their staying power at least in the short term.

[JeremyNick]

Originally Posted by rmw10

Panini not holding back. They've signed a couple of college players to exclusive card deals, and also pulled a good portion of the top MLB draft picks. They seem pretty confident in their staying power at least in the short term.

Or they are continuing to build their IP value.

[rmw10]

Originally Posted by JeremyNick

Or they are continuing to build their IP value.

Possibly, but struggle to see how signing Michael Penix for $500k (just making up numbers) makes the price when/if they do sell also go up by $500k.

[JeremyNick]

Originally Posted by rmw10

Possibly, but struggle to see how signing Michael Penix for $500k (just making up numbers) makes the price when/if they do sell also go up by $500k.

Depending who and how many they sign, it could be the difference between selling off the IP or not.

[packman80]

How many people will want these cards from Panini if they are unlicensed cards that have no team logo or anything on them. Seems like a dang if you do dang if you don't. Can't get the card in a licensed product but unlicensed products won't have that same value.

[Grid]

Originally Posted by rmw10

Possibly, but struggle to see how signing Michael Penix for $500k (just making up numbers) makes the price when/if they do sell also go up by $500k.

That's really not how these things are structured. Almost every worthwhile college players is signed to an autograph contract predraft. And they are mostly smoke and mirrors, and seem like a good chunk of money. Especially for college kids, who have yet to make real money (baring some NILs).

Its been pretty much the same way for the past 20 years, since the explosion of rookie auto cards.

The top prospects, or even those higher rated ones in hobby popular positions (QB, WR, RB etc) will get a deal for 5,000- 10,000 autos. Its all base, with escalators and rebuys.

Base contract now is like $5.00 an auto. They will pay you $25,000 for 5,000 signed stickers. If you are selected in the 4th round, you will get a $3.00 bonus (or something). 3rd round, $5 bonus. 2nd round, $10 bonus. 1st round, $20 bonus. Top 10, $30 bonus. Or something like that.

Then, when you agree, you agree to a rebuy if needed at the same rate, for the same count. So if you are Trevor Lawrence, and signed your original deal for 5,000 autos for the $35 each. You got $175,000. And they can have you sign another 5,000 at the same rate in the future. Even if you are now a star, and commanding $200 per auto at a public signing. WHich is why Dak fought his rebuy. And the value paid, per the deal, wasnt the value he wanted for his signature. He was so popular at the time, Panini had to agree to rip up the contract.

And that player signs a contract that looks to be for $350,000. And they jump at it.

If you are Josh Rosen, and look to be a bust after year one. They wont ask you for a resign. He saw the same $350K contract. But he would only get half of that in reality.

Zero risk to these companies paying the money. As that is averaged out over all the card releases they will include the signatures in. If a guy is a bust, most all of the signed stickers were dumped that rookie year on cards anyway. If the guy is a star, they can execute the rebuy and then stretch those stickers out for years, like you see with Mahomes and such.

I am sure is fractions of dollars more, to be the card exclusive to all these guys. And thats just to keep autos away from Leaf, Panini and anyone else in that space

[rmw10]

Originally Posted by Grid

That's really not how these things are structured. Almost every worthwhile college players is signed to an autograph contract predraft. And they are mostly smoke and mirrors, and seem like a good chunk of money. Especially for college kids, who have yet to make real money (baring some NILs).

Its been pretty much the same way for the past 20 years, since the explosion of rookie auto cards.

The top prospects, or even those higher rated ones in hobby popular positions (QB, WR, RB etc) will get a deal for 5,000- 10,000 autos. Its all base, with escalators and rebuys.

Base contract now is like $5.00 an auto. They will pay you $25,000 for 5,000 signed stickers. If you are selected in the 4th round, you will get a $3.00 bonus (or something). 3rd round, $5 bonus. 2nd round, $10 bonus. 1st round, $20 bonus. Top 10, $30 bonus. Or something like that.

Then, when you agree, you agree to a rebuy if needed at the same rate, for the same count. So if you are Trevor Lawrence, and signed your original deal for 5,000 autos for the $35 each. You got $175,000. And they can have you sign another 5,000 at the same rate in the future. Even if you are now a star, and commanding $200 per auto at a public signing. WHich is why Dak fought his rebuy. And the value paid, per the deal, wasnt the value he wanted for his signature. He was so popular at the time, Panini had to agree to rip up the contract.

And that player signs a contract that looks to be for $350,000. And they jump at it.

If you are Josh Rosen, and look to be a bust after year one. They wont ask you for a resign. He saw the same $350K contract. But he would only get half of that in reality.

Zero risk to these companies paying the money. As that is averaged out over all the card releases they will include the signatures in. If a guy is a bust, most all of the signed stickers were dumped that rookie year on cards anyway. If the guy is a star, they can execute the rebuy and then stretch those stickers out for years, like you see with Mahomes and such.

I am sure is fractions of dollars more, to be the card exclusive to all these guys. And thats just to keep autos away from Leaf, Panini and anyone else in that space

That's basically my point. Whatever you're paying these guys now is extremely unlikely to get the ROI when/if they sell. Regardless of how it's structured, signing guys to exclusive deals at this stage seems to indicate they plan to be making cards for at least the short-term.

[Grid]

Originally Posted by rmw10

That's basically my point. Whatever you're paying these guys now is extremely unlikely to get the ROI when/if they sell. Regardless of how it's structured, signing guys to exclusive deals at this stage seems to indicate they plan to be making cards for at least the short-term.

For sure! I was just pointing out the low risk aspect to the card makers. And that these deals aren't a big as some people seem to think.

At the very least, Fanatics is pumping up its stable of players for 2024. Like Michael Penix. If they wrestle the league right away early, they are all set. If they have to pump out a bunch of Bowman U type products, they can do that as well.

The point is, to chop Panini, Wild Card, Leaf ETC off at the knees. Since autos of these players, are the only thing driving sales for them without a license. No one is buying Pro Set for the super cool base cards and inserts. Take away rookie autos, and they got nothing.

[rmw10]

Originally Posted by Grid

For sure! I was just pointing out the low risk aspect to the card makers. And that these deals aren't a big as some people seem to think.

At the very least, Fanatics is pumping up its stable of players for 2024. Like Michael Penix. If they wrestle the league right away early, they are all set. If they have to pump out a bunch of Bowman U type products, they can do that as well.

The point is, to chop Panini, Wild Card, Leaf ETC off at the knees. Since autos of these players, are the only thing driving sales for them without a license. No one is buying Pro Set for the super cool base cards and inserts. Take away rookie autos, and they got nothing.

In this case, I'm referring to Panini signing players to these deals. They got Penix on the football side, some of the top MLB draft picks, and even some NBA guys. I know they have a little bit more freedom in MLB with the unlicensed stuff, they still have NBA as of now. It's the football guys they're starting to capture that raises some eyebrows. Regardless of sport, they're just acting like a company that has no plans to sell off or even stop when they were told to (pending legal stuff, of course).

[49erRCCollector]

Do the Panini Instant cards for week one usually get announced today… tomorrow?

[jdsingar]

Originally Posted by 49erRCCollector

Do the Panini Instant cards for week one usually get announced today… tomorrow?

I recall them usually announcing the weekly slate of cards on Monday.

Sent from my SM-F946U1 using Tapatalk

[49erRCCollector]

Originally Posted by jdsingar

I recall them usually announcing the weekly slate of cards on Monday.

Sent from my SM-F946U1 using Tapatalk

Will be very curious if Panini Instant doesn’t happen. That would be… telling.

[Grid]

Originally Posted by rmw10

In this case, I'm referring to Panini signing players to these deals. They got Penix on the football side, some of the top MLB draft picks, and even some NBA guys. I know they have a little bit more freedom in MLB with the unlicensed stuff, they still have NBA as of now. It's the football guys they're starting to capture that raises some eyebrows. Regardless of sport, they're just acting like a company that has no plans to sell off or even stop when they were told to (pending legal stuff, of course).

I am a dealer, and if I take a player exclusive, when it comes to signings, its still funny money and spread out.

Say I offer a rookie a $40,000 2 year exclusive contract for his signature. And my terms are 4 signings per year, with 2 of them being public and 2 private. I do not give them $40K on day one. No one does.

I am into him at $5K per, paid the day of. I have wording in the deal, if they were to be cut, hurt, part of a scandal or otherwise not performing to established expectations. The contract if void, and they are free to seek a new deal. They (their agent) will ask for escalators, that I have to agree to. Like a 20% bump if they make the Pro Bowl or win a major award.

Both sides have wording, to protect each other.

I am sure Panini (or anyone) has the same wording in their exclusives. They might even have a failure to operate clause, stating the contract is void if they themselves exit the business or can otherwise not perform.

[Asian62150]

Originally Posted by 49erRCCollector

Will be very curious if Panini Instant doesn’t happen. That would be… telling.

Doesn't Panini usually send out an email Mon/Tues previewing the cards?

[rmw10]

Originally Posted by 49erRCCollector

Will be very curious if Panini Instant doesn’t happen. That would be… telling.

They've been pumping out the college Instant cards, too. Raises some eyebrows.