BGS Black Labels, Joe Clemons (eBay ID: wjc75056), and Illegitimate Grading

[NYRE2PECT]

What the actual %#]<%\!!?

Do they have friends and family days at the grading plant?

Nobody questioned 180 black labels getting printed!?

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[Cards and 401K]

Sounds really unscrupulous behind closed doors. Fact that black label king actually graded his OWN cards on the weekends is nuts. Scumbags screwing the average clients and giving grading preference to others.
Seems likely they were switching cards in other situations. Graders knowing whose cards they were grading. Good riddance to them. Unfortunately other TPG have other screw the public back door issues too. Not to mention how many cards get damaged and fingerprinted in the grading process. Thanks for sharing the podcast!!


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[BRob1]

Anyone that pays the after market premium black labels command needs their head checked.


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[fabiani12333]

Grading is literally creating value out of thin air. It's pretty crazy to think about it.

[Brazenways]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

Grading is literally creating value out of thin air. It's pretty crazy to think about it.

Wild to see the hate for bgs but not for psa - it’s the exact same principle.

[Scottish Punk]

Originally Posted by Brazenways

Wild to see the hate for bgs but not for psa - it’s the exact same principle.

I mean PSA has had favoritism for big submitters for years. Not to mention scandal after scandal. The PSA 10 is still gospel in the industry. If the beckett whistleblower's claim that PSA has a daily quota of PSA 10 is true, than it gets even more silly.

[williemayshayes]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

Grading is literally creating value out of thin air. It's pretty crazy to think about it.

True and....

numbered parallels/refractors are literally creating value out of thin air.

[Triple B]

Can't be all that smart if you gave yourself 180 Black Labels in sequential order. To his credit, his sideburns are lovely.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by williemayshayes

True and....

numbered parallels/refractors are literally creating value out of thin air.

But numbered parallels have a distinct design or feature that distinguishes them from other cards. A card that is indistinguishable from a BGS 9.5-graded copy can suddenly be worth a lot more if it is given a black label.

[MiamiMarlinsFan]

The rumors are he actually came in the office on the weekend and somehow he got a hold of his own order and gave himself 180 plus Black Labels in one order, which is almost unheard of.

I like the part how someone giving themselves 180 Black Labels is almost completely unheard up.

[MiamiMarlinsFan]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

Grading is literally creating value out of thin air. It's pretty crazy to think about it.

All sports cards are basically creating value out of thin air. Investing in sport cards is bad, investing in Black Label slabs is really bad. Really really bad.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by MiamiMarlinsFan

All sports cards are basically creating value out of thin air. Investing in sport cards is bad, investing in Black Label slabs is really bad. Really really bad.

But licensed sports cards have significant costs associated with them -- photographs, graphic design, manufacturing, licenses etc.

With grading, all that has to be done to generate significantly more value is to change the flip.

[Triple B]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

But licensed sports cards have significant costs associated with them -- photographs, graphic design, manufacturing, licenses etc.

With grading, all that has to be done to generate significantly more value is to change the flip.

Why is that bad? Just don't buy graded cards.

[williemayshayes]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

But licensed sports cards have significant costs associated with them -- photographs, graphic design, manufacturing, licenses etc.

With modern, all that has to be done to generate significantly more value is to change the border color/vinyl design.

This is my point....and I really enjoy refractors and parallels.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by Triple B

Why is that bad? Just don't buy graded cards.

I regularly buy graded guys. But I buy the card and not the grade -- the grade given by the grading company needs to match the condition.

The issue being exposed in this thread is the lack of controls and integrity in the grading industry. Buyers need to be aware of the potential for fraud with graded cards and how value can be created out of thin air by unethical or incompetent graders.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by williemayshayes

This is my point....and I really enjoy refractors and parallels.

Yes, but the change in border design does not automatically translate to significantly more value. There has to be a demand for it. Topps or Panini must put some effort into designing cards that will have appeal and be desired, or fill a market need.

With card grading, cards that are already in demand can suddenly be more valuable if they are given a higher grade, even if they are indistinguishable from copies that have been given a lower grade.

[williemayshayes]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

Yes, but the change in border design does not automatically translate to significantly more value. There has to be a demand for it. Topps or Panini must put some effort into designing cards that will have appeal and be desired, or fill a market need.

With card grading, cards that are already in demand can suddenly be more valuable if they are given a higher grade, even if they are indistinguishable from copies that have been given a lower grade.

Except historical data says it does. I can't think of an instance in which a .01 piece of gold vinyl hasn't immediately increased the value of a card over it's base counterpart.

[MiamiMarlinsFan]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

But licensed sports cards have significant costs associated with them -- photographs, graphic design, manufacturing, licenses etc.

With grading, all that has to be done to generate significantly more value is to change the flip.

They have costs associated with them, but not necessarily any value. We as the consumers do that for reason like: the player on the card, how many copies were printed, etc. And yeah, we also assign value based on the number printed on the flip.

[Triple B]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

I regularly buy graded guys. But I buy the card and not the grade -- the grade given by the grading company needs to match the condition.

The issue being exposed in this thread is the lack of controls and integrity in the grading industry. Buyers need to be aware of the potential for fraud with graded cards and how value can be created out of thin air by unethical or incompetent graders.

BGS is run by idiots. This thread accentuates that fact. As for grading it serves a purpose (many purposes) and we all know what it’s about. People who buy the grade drive the market. Finding rarity in something that isn’t rare drives people to do insane things and I’m glad for it.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by williemayshayes

Except historical data says it does. I can't think of an instance in which a .01 piece of gold vinyl hasn't immediately increased the value of a card over it's base counterpart.

Of course a parallel is generally going to be more valuable than a base card -- base cards are meant to be easily attainable. But that doesn't mean a card automatically has more value just because it has added color to its border -- the player being depicted has to have a collector or investor base. Or the parallel itself has to have an existing collector or investor base.

The proper analogy with grading would be if a manufacturer took an in-demand card and created a special parallel for it after the product had already been released.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by MiamiMarlinsFan

They have costs associated with them, but not necessarily any value. We as the consumers do that for reason like: the player on the card, how many copies were printed, etc. And yeah, we also assign value based on the number printed on the flip.

There is no difference in cost between grades -- there is a cost to grading in general, though. There are unique costs associated with each trading card product and individual cards.

[Asian62150]

The sad thing is, I'm not sure any of us are surprised that Eagle Eye got special treatment or was even allowed to grade his own cards.

There's little to no oversight at BGS.

I'm glad that this thread helped expose BGS and they're now dealing with the consequenes.

Would be interesting to hear Joe's side of the story. Where you at, Eagle Eye?

[MiamiMarlinsFan]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

There is no difference in cost between grades -- there is a cost to grading in general, though. There are unique costs associated with each trading card product and individual cards.

Of course there are costs. I’m not arguing costs. I’m just saying after that, the consumer assigns a value, and that is separate from the costs (but obviously, can play a factor).

[SaveMeTheGum]

I'm glad I saved this pic. The 2018 Beckett Industry summit hosted some of the biggest card trimmers in the hobby.

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by 3124508 on COMC

Sounds like much like the SSI crew, who famously said they were at BGS grading headquarters daily?

Found the quote.

Originally Posted by SSIGuy

Yep, they are closed on the weekends and their lobby door is 100% locked right at 4pm every single day.

If you're needing assistance with BGS grading, give us a shout and we'll help you out. We're in the building every single day of the week.

I wonder how many of those blue bins the grader talked about were labeled SSI over the years.