TJ Watch… Spencer Strider on the clock

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by jhssketchcards

Great point. Guys sacrifice the ability to pitch for velocity. Same reason why we see guys getting smoked with 98+… lack of command but boy do people fawn over the fastball.

Equally amazing that guys could be successful throwing below 95+ for an entire season and over 250+ innings for years.

Pitchers today focus on velocity and max effort every single pitch. Changing speeds and location are lost arts it seems.


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Fastball usage has been dropping

Guys throwing 95+ were pitching all season back then with no issues as well. Plenty of guys that throw under 95 have ended up with UCL injuries. Check my comments where I noted that about half the guys coachnip cited that sit 94 and under have had TJS.

And to your last line. Every pitcher changed speed. Every pitcher throws to different locations. Honestly, that's the most ridiculous comment that's been made, and you're not the only that's made it. You can throw hard and still change speeds.

[mfw13]

Originally Posted by whitmm

Guys have been trying to throw as hard as possible forever. Roger Clemens, Nolan Ryan, Randy Johnson.

But they were smart enough to pace themselves and only dial it up when they needed to get a big out. They didn't try and throw every single pitch as hard as possible, which is what many young pitchers are being encouraged to do now.

They all threw in the mid-90's, with Ryan and Big Unit being able to dial it up over 100 a couple of times a game.

And none of them grew up playing baseball all year round, so their arms weren't worn out before they even reached the big leagues.

For them, the ultimate achievement was a complete-game shutout, not racking up tons of strikeouts.

[mfw13]

Originally Posted by whitmm

Pitchers have always thrown with maximum effort. They've always tried to throw maximum velocity.

Simply not true.

Pitchers dialed it up to their max velocity to get big outs and get out of jams, but they did not try to throw every single pitch at max velocity, as pitchers are encouraged to do nowadays.

Their primary goal was to try and pitch a complete game shutout, not to rack up strikeouts.

[oldgoldy97]

If that was true, Wakefield and Jaimie Moyer must have been throwing with their non-dominant arm.

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by mfw13

But they were smart enough to pace themselves and only dial it up when they needed to get a big out. They didn't try and throw every single pitch as hard as possible, which is what many young pitchers are being encouraged to do now.

They all threw in the mid-90's, with Ryan and Big Unit being able to dial it up over 100 a couple of times a game.

And none of them grew up playing baseball all year round, so their arms weren't worn out before they even reached the big leagues.

For them, the ultimate achievement was a complete-game shutout, not racking up tons of strikeouts.

The playing baseball year round comment is a completely different discussion.

Spencer Strider sits around 96-97 with his fastball. He can dial it up to 100. So no, he's not trying to throw every pitch as hard as possible. It's the same with most starters. Reynaldo Lopez can hit 100 and does in relief spots, but as a starter he's not going to. Fastballs aren't the pitch causing these injuries.

Strider has said his goal every game is complete game, 27 up 27 down with 27 strikeouts.

Pitchers throwing less innings didn't come from guys starting to try and throw as hard as possible every pitch. It came from management teams noting that hitters did better the more times they saw a pitcher in a game. Pitchers can dial it up more because strategy has changed. But again, fastballs aren't the issue.

What pitchers are being taught and trained now is because baseball strategy has changed, not the other way around.

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by mfw13

Simply not true.

Pitchers dialed it up to their max velocity to get big outs and get out of jams, but they did not try to throw every single pitch at max velocity, as pitchers are encouraged to do nowadays.

Their primary goal was to try and pitch a complete game shutout, not to rack up strikeouts.

You are confusing increased velocity with maximum effort and maximum velocity.

Maybe read all the comments before you start responding, because I've addressed this

Spencer Strider can throw 100+. The fact that his fastball average sits 2-3 mph slower means he's not throwing every pitch with max velocity. And again, fastballs aren't the pitch causing the injuries

[anusinha]

Hi


I know 2024 Topps Tommy John Baseball wont be out until November..


Currently Shane Bieber Rookie cards will be in this product and we could possibly see EURY PEREZ / SPENCER STRIDER / JONATHAN LOAISAGA / GERRIT COLE and a few others if they get called up soon.
at $250 / hobby box doesnt it sound to good to be true?

Bieber's Base Rookie will probably sell for $50-$75 while Perez-Strider could be in the $25-50 range.

By this time PSA should have a $35-50 grading level


Any thoughts on the potential of this product as well as the current price?

I think it could be one of the hottest products if not the hottest of these past years.

[johnlocke36]

Originally Posted by jhssketchcards

Great point. Guys sacrifice the ability to pitch for velocity. Same reason why we see guys getting smoked with 98+… lack of command but boy do people fawn over the fastball.

It’s amazing that so many great fastball pitchers who are in the HOF pitched for decades without TJ. Maybe it’s because when they were 14-18 they played football, basketball and other sports after baseball season instead having their parents drag them around for 12 months playing multiple travel teams.

Equally amazing that guys could be successful throwing below 95+ for an entire season and over 250+ innings for years.

Pitchers today focus on velocity and max effort every single pitch. Changing speeds and location are lost arts it seems.


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This isn’t hard. Most of your HOF pitchers would get lit up today vs modern hitters unless something changed. They would either have to throw harder or they would be out of baseball.

Some would still be great I’m sure but there numbers would be worse. I know nobody wants to read this but Maddux would not be winning cy young today


I can just imagine it now. Coach says ok guys our plan is to get through 7 have Abreu go the 8th and Hader the 9th. Nah I think were better off telling Jack Morris to take something off and go all 9. I don't think these modern hitters will be able to adjust to his 92 mph fastball the 4th time through the order and it certiantly gives us a better chance of winning then Josh Hadger going 1 inning of max effort

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

This isn’t hard. Most of your HOF pitchers would get lit up today vs modern hitters unless something changed. They would either have to throw harder or they would be out of baseball.

Some would still be great I’m sure but there numbers would be worse. I know nobody wants to read this but Maddux would not be winning cy young today


I can just imagine it now. Coach says ok guys our plan is to get through 7 have Abreu go the 8th and Hader the 9th. Nah I think were better off telling Jack Morris to take something off and go all 9. I don't think these modern hitters will be able to adjust to his 92 mph fastball the 4th time through the order and it certiantly gives us a better chance of winning then Josh Hadger going 1 inning of max effort

Exactly. Starting pitchers aren't going less innings because they decided to try throwing harder. Years and years of statistical data said that hitters do better when they face a pitcher more times. Going back to Hack Wilson's 191 RBI season. He hit around .300 the first time he faced a pitcher. When he was facing a starter for the third time, he jumped to .400 and the 4th time he hit .380.

I made this comment earlier about Maddux. Yes, he was all about hitting his spots. He also benefit from consistently getting called strikes that were painting the chalk. It's easy to get weak contact when hitters are forced to swing at balls because it's going to be called. Tom Glavine was the same.

Top pitchers are seeing 50-60 points jumps in OPS from the second to third time facing hitters in a game. And most pitchers aren't the top in the league. This is why teams switched to more bullpen use and more specialized pitchers. Not because pitchers decided to start throwing with more effort every pitch

[johnlocke36]

Originally Posted by whitmm

I made this comment earlier about Maddux. Yes, he was all about hitting his spots. He also benefit from consistently getting called strikes that were painting the chalk. It's easy to get weak contact when hitters are forced to swing at balls because it's going to be called. Tom Glavine was the same.

Yes, Ive made this point several times in other threads and it was not well received. Maddux was amazing don't get me wrong, but what made him amazing was catcher set up 6+ inches off the black and he hit his spot got the call. Now batter just takes it for a ball and he's forced to work more around the plate. Guess what this will result in getting hit more/harder. Does that mean he wouldn't sitll be great, of course not. He could still be better version of Kyle Hendricks.

But if you want an example go watch the Famous Hernanzdex Eric Greg 15k game and look at some of the punchouts. Now imagine if everyone of those striekouts were just called a ball instead.

Also, we've all seen the famous MAddux backdoor 2 seamer to Moises Alou. What most people haven't seen is Maddux interview where he states there was a massive slice on ball from foul ball and throwing pitches like that in modern day baseball would be impossible

[jhssketchcards]

Pitchers get consistent calls when they have impeccable control. Pitchers who don’t throw strikes on a regular basis don’t get the edge calls.
Pitchers sacrifice control for velo more than ever.


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[base set]

Originally Posted by jhssketchcards

Pitchers get consistent calls when they have impeccable control. Pitchers who don’t throw strikes on a regular basis don’t get the edge calls.
Pitchers sacrifice control for velo more than ever.


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Was amazing on Friday night to hear Seattle’s 99 mph flamethrower walk four straight batters in tied bottom of the 9th. The most authentic “walk off” possible.

[johnlocke36]

Originally Posted by jhssketchcards

Pitchers get consistent calls when they have impeccable control. Pitchers who don’t throw strikes on a regular basis don’t get the edge calls.
Pitchers sacrifice control for velo more than ever.


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This is less true today. If maddux hits his spot 6-9 inches off the black its getting called a ball.

Pitchers sacrifice control for velocity because velocity is more important. Lets look at Strider, he basically said I don't really care about control/location. I want to throw the pitch as fast as possible with as much spin as possible. If I throw it with max velocity/max spin its going to be a good pitch wherever its located.
Now there are 2 takeaways from this: (1) he'll prob need TJ as a result (2) He was a Cy Young candidate 3 years removed from posting like a 5 ERA in limited action at Clemson.... because he was correct

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by jhssketchcards

Pitchers get consistent calls when they have impeccable control. Pitchers who don’t throw strikes on a regular basis don’t get the edge calls.
Pitchers sacrifice control for velo more than ever.


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Maddux got pitches that weren't close. We aren't talking about pitches that were just missing the zone.

Sorry but being able to consistently hit a spot six inches off the plate doesn't mean that they should be called strikes.

[johnlocke36]

Originally Posted by jhssketchcards

Pitchers get consistent calls when they have impeccable control. Pitchers who don’t throw strikes on a regular basis don’t get the edge calls.
Pitchers sacrifice control for velo more than ever.


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You do realize after QuesTec and Pitch f/x you can't do this anymore right?

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by base set

Was amazing on Friday night to hear Seattle’s 99 mph flamethrower walk four straight batters in tied bottom of the 9th. The most authentic “walk off” possible.

Nolan Ryan walked 800 more batters than anyone else in the league. Quit acting like this is a new phenomenon.

12 of the top 20 players in walks allowed are in the HOF and that doesn't include Roger Clemens, who had a HOF worthy career.

Was amazing to see Bowden Francis throwing 92-94 today, walk 3 batters and give up 5 runs on 2 hits whole only lasting 3 innings. But sure, let's keep acting like the only pitchers that struggle with command.

Nice you picked Friday night's game, but ignored Saturday night where Munoz picked up the save with a 1 2 3 9th inning on 13 pitches. Or maybe we could use 3/29, where he faced 4 batters, got 3 strikeouts, all on 20 pitches.

[jhssketchcards]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

This isn’t hard. Most of your HOF pitchers would get lit up today vs modern hitters unless something changed. They would either have to throw harder or they would be out of baseball.

Some would still be great I’m sure but there numbers would be worse. I know nobody wants to read this but Maddux would not be winning cy young today


I can just imagine it now. Coach says ok guys our plan is to get through 7 have Abreu go the 8th and Hader the 9th. Nah I think were better off telling Jack Morris to take something off and go all 9. I don't think these modern hitters will be able to adjust to his 92 mph fastball the 4th time through the order and it certiantly gives us a better chance of winning then Josh Hadger going 1 inning of max effort

You THINK so but you don’t know. You’re assuming they’d be relying on their time periods approach. Give Walter Johnson and Warren Spahn todays training and they’d dominate. Same for Bob Gibson, Koufax, Seaver and more. Smart pitchers are successful. Very few guys today on the mound are smart and go after weaknesses of hitters. They rely scouting reports and data and try to blow it by guys most of the time. There are many successful pitchers today sitting 90-94. At the end of the day it doesn’t matter. Facts are in front of us that these guys threw too many innings in their younger years and their arms have paid the price. It’s no different than guys at a gym maxing out every rep. They may be big and strong but their muscles, tendons and ligaments can only take so much. Trying to throw 100 mph every pitch is a recipe for disaster. Even Skenes won’t be able to handle that. Eventually his arm will give out. It may be 5 years from now, but bones and joints can’t handle that type of strain.


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[jhssketchcards]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

This is less true today. If maddux hits his spot 6-9 inches off the black its getting called a ball.

Pitchers sacrifice control for velocity because velocity is more important. Lets look at Strider, he basically said I don't really care about control/location. I want to throw the pitch as fast as possible with as much spin as possible. If I throw it with max velocity/max spin its going to be a good pitch wherever its located.
Now there are 2 takeaways from this: (1) he'll prob need TJ as a result (2) He was a Cy Young candidate 3 years removed from posting like a 5 ERA in limited action at Clemson.... because he was correct

You’d think a guy with all that success wouldn’t have had an ERA near 4.00 last year.


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[johnlocke36]

Originally Posted by jhssketchcards

You THINK so but you don’t know. You’re assuming they’d be relying on their time periods approach. Give Walter Johnson and Warren Spahn todays training and they’d dominate. Same for Bob Gibson, Koufax, Seaver and more.

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You THINK so but you don’t know. If you think guys in 1950 had a better approach for facing batters then guys pithcing today then I don't know what to tell you. You are just misinformed

[johnlocke36]

Originally Posted by jhssketchcards

Very few guys today on the mound are smart and go after weaknesses of hitters. They rely scouting reports and data

lol, this is quite a juxtaposition.

Very few guys are smart, these idiots rely on data and math

[johnlocke36]

Originally Posted by jhssketchcards

You THINK so but you don’t know. You’re assuming they’d be relying on their time periods approach. Give Walter Johnson and Warren Spahn todays training and they’d dominate. Same for Bob Gibson, Koufax, Seaver and more. Smart pitchers are successful. Very few guys today on the mound are smart and go after weaknesses of hitters. They rely scouting reports and data and try to blow it by guys most of the time. There are many successful pitchers today sitting 90-94. At the end of the day it doesn’t matter. Facts are in front of us that these guys threw too many innings in their younger years and their arms have paid the price. It’s no different than guys at a gym maxing out every rep. They may be big and strong but their muscles, tendons and ligaments can only take so much. Trying to throw 100 mph every pitch is a recipe for disaster. Even Skenes won’t be able to handle that. Eventually his arm will give out. It may be 5 years from now, but bones and joints can’t handle that type of strain.


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Now hear me out Paul. I know you think your on to something sitting 101 but let me show you the optimal delivery so you can throw 9 innings instead


By the way I throw just as hard and woukd dominate todays game


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[jhssketchcards]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

lol, this is quite a juxtaposition.

Very few guys are smart, these idiots rely on data and math

My point remains. Pitchers in years before tablets and all this data figured it out themselves. They didn’t have computers using algorithms doing the work for them. Sandy Koufax wasn’t looking at a tablet between units figuring out how to pitch to Hank Aaron and Willie Mays. He knew how to pitch by using his brain.


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[jhssketchcards]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

You THINK so but you don’t know. If you think guys in 1950 had a better approach for facing batters then guys pithcing today then I don't know what to tell you. You are just misinformed

Maybe so. But there’s one pitcher in the HOF who had TJ. Doesn’t bode well for these guys going under the knife so often.


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[whitmm]

Originally Posted by jhssketchcards

You THINK so but you don’t know. You’re assuming they’d be relying on their time periods approach. Give Walter Johnson and Warren Spahn todays training and they’d dominate. Same for Bob Gibson, Koufax, Seaver and more. Smart pitchers are successful. Very few guys today on the mound are smart and go after weaknesses of hitters. They rely scouting reports and data and try to blow it by guys most of the time. There are many successful pitchers today sitting 90-94. At the end of the day it doesn’t matter. Facts are in front of us that these guys threw too many innings in their younger years and their arms have paid the price. It’s no different than guys at a gym maxing out every rep. They may be big and strong but their muscles, tendons and ligaments can only take so much. Trying to throw 100 mph every pitch is a recipe for disaster. Even Skenes won’t be able to handle that. Eventually his arm will give out. It may be 5 years from now, but bones and joints can’t handle that type of strain.


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Again. There's a laundry list of players that sit 90-94 that have had arm issues and TJS.

How does a pitcher rely of scouting reports and yet not attack the weaknesses of a hitter? Makes no sense and honestly is just wrong.

There's plenty of successful pitchers that sit 95+, just like there's plenty of pitchers that sit 90-94 that are unsuccessful and don't last in the league.

Back to Strider. He had TJS already, that was the result of the "too many innings at a younger age." That excuse doesn't work when you're talking about a repaired ligament.

[jhssketchcards]

Originally Posted by whitmm

Again. There's a laundry list of players that sit 90-94 that have had arm issues and TJS.

How does a pitcher rely of scouting reports and yet not attack the weaknesses of a hitter? Makes no sense and honestly is just wrong.

There's plenty of successful pitchers that sit 95+, just like there's plenty of pitchers that sit 90-94 that are unsuccessful and don't last in the league.

Back to Strider. He had TJS already, that was the result of the "too many innings at a younger age." That excuse doesn't work when you're talking about a repaired ligament.

It’s a repaired ligament, therefore the chances of it tearing again are higher than a non-repaired ligament.
As far as what I said, pitchers eat back when made adjustments in their head, whereas guys today won’t do anything the computer doesn’t tell them. They don’t think for themselves. Making in-game adjustments that are counter to video game scenarios is foreign to these guys.


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