Read today that Negro League will be merged with MLB stats….

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by awz50

He only hit around 5 in the negro leagues so no

they still have more box scores to find

[awz50]

This thread brought to you by....

Purdue and Smirnoff

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by TheFrenzy

I'm going to need you to expand on your argument and show me the sources you are using.

You know, you can do a search yourself:

After Jackie Robinson broke the color line, executives and owners from the Negro Leagues met with their counterparts from the major leagues and proposed a number of options for mergers and cooperation. At first it was suggested that the better clubs with large fan bases from the Negro Leagues, such as the Kansas City Monarchs, be allowed in as expansion franchises.19 Several of these teams operated in cities that lacked a major-league team, already had large followings, and were perfectly positioned to help the major leagues take advantage of postwar prosperity and newly expendable income. The proposal was unanimously voted down. When this was rejected the possibility of the Negro Leagues becoming a Triple-A minor-league circuit was raised, but this idea also was summarily dismissed.20 White owners had no interest in cooperating with their black counterparts and made a deliberate choice to put the Negro Leagues out of business after obtaining their best players and wooing away much of their fan base.

Somewhat paradoxically, the years between 1947 and 1950 – as Negro League attendance dropped off dramatically due to the loss of star players – were some of the most financially successful for some black teams, among them the Birmingham Black Barons and the Kansas City Monarchs. However, this was due primarily to the sale of players to white-owned teams.23 The Monarchs were also among the first teams to begin consciously scouting prospects for sale to affiliated white clubs rather than to developing them for their own roster. This had the effect of further distancing an already dwindling fan base. Black franchises saw their values plummet, with teams that had been worth millions at the close of World War II going out of business by the end of the decade.24

To complicate matters further, a number of white teams refused to honor Negro League contracts and pirated players outright without compensating Negro League team owners.25 Rickey, while gaining esteem among many African-Americans (and earning the animosity of others) for the signing of Robinson, paid the Monarchs nothing for Robinson’s contract, stating that Negro League contracts were not in accordance with the National Agreement that governed all affiliated baseball contracts and were therefore void.26 Teams began to sell their players for a fraction of their market value in order to recoup some of their investment rather than to take a total loss on a player who jumped his contract.

https://sabr.org/research/article/ba...negro-leagues/

[TheFrenzy]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

You know, you can do a search yourself:

Ohhh.....so you didn't even read your own source.

You wrote:

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

From my understanding, one of the reasons MLB integrated

And your source is discussing the post-integration business wranglings.

"After Jackie Robinson broke the color line..."

There was no top-down, league-wide decision to integrate prior to Robinson. There certainly was no nefarious plan to integrate because MLB was terrified of the Negro Leagues and wanted to put them out of business.

Saying no to a merger is completely different from whatever you were trying to argue.

[Bcr]

So is Ichiro the all time hits leader now or does that league not count?

[jplarson]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

You know, you can do a search yourself:

That's not how assertions work. You make the claim, you got to back it up buddy.

[TheFrenzy]

The reason I asked for a source is because I've never come across a legitimate historical source making your claim:

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

From my understanding, one of the reasons MLB integrated was because they wanted to weaken the Negro Leagues, which had become popular.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by JohnnyHatesJazz

Interesting. See I like to get both sides of the coin when discussing things like this and not just clinging to one side right away.

These guys had a good discussion on this topic. Both former Boston sports writers and Holley is one that I used to listen to a lot on the radio and respect his opinions.

Solid discussion -- thanks for the link.

The way I ultimately look at is, the Negro Leagues was a source of pride for black players and black Americans. They created their own league as a result of being shunned by MLB. For MLB to now fully incorporate the Negro Leagues into MLB history is disrespectful to those who made the Negro Leagues its own success.

Black Americans took something awful -- segregation, bigotry and racism -- and made something beautiful out of it. They created their own league and their own history, separate from MLB.

[rms13]

Originally Posted by Bcr

So is Ichiro the all time hits leader now or does that league not count?

No. MLB is still racist against Japanese

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by TheFrenzy

Ohhh.....so you didn't even read your own source.

You wrote:



And your source is discussing the post-integration business wranglings.

"After Jackie Robinson broke the color line..."

There was no top-down, league-wide decision to integrate prior to Robinson. There certainly was no nefarious plan to integrate because MLB was terrified of the Negro Leagues and wanted to put them out of business.

Saying no to a merger is completely different from whatever you were trying to argue.

I view the process of integration as continuing well beyond Jackie Robinson breaking the color barrier.

After Branch Rickey signed Robinson, the other owners decided to crush the Negro Leagues by taking their best players.

[boxbuster7]

Originally Posted by TheFrenzy

The reason I asked for a source is because I've never come across a legitimate historical source making your claim:

Thats cause he doesn't have one. This is blowout forums after all, where claims get made without evidence.

[jplarson]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

Solid discussion -- thanks for the link.

The way I ultimately look at is, the Negro Leagues was a source of pride for black players and black Americans. They created their own league as a result of being shunned by MLB. For MLB to now fully incorporate the Negro Leagues into MLB history is disrespectful to those who made the Negro Leagues a success.

Black Americans took something awful -- segregation, bigotry and racism -- and made something beautiful out of it. They created their own league and their own history, separate from MLB.

.....

[fabiani12333]

The idea that integration was complete after Robinson debuted is absurd.

[Skipscards]

They announced this months ago. The MLB is just finally getting around to updating their books. It’s really a non-issue and what’s crazy is the Union Association and the Federal League were recognized as major leagues over 50 years before the Negro Leagues.

[TheFrenzy]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

I view the process of integration as continuing well beyond Jackie Robinson breaking the color barrier.

Next you'll be asking why the Negro Leagues didn't just make their own baseball cards.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by Skipscards

They announced this months ago. The MLB is just finally getting around to updating their books. It’s really a non-issue and what’s crazy is the Union Association and the Federal League were recognized as major leagues over 50 years before the Negro Leagues.

I agree -- that does seem crazy.

[Skipscards]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

Solid discussion -- thanks for the link.

The way I ultimately look at is, the Negro Leagues was a source of pride for black players and black Americans. They created their own league as a result of being shunned by MLB. For MLB to now fully incorporate the Negro Leagues into MLB history is disrespectful to those who made the Negro Leagues its own success.

Black Americans took something awful -- segregation, bigotry and racism -- and made something beautiful out of it. They created their own league and their own history, separate from MLB.

It simply recognizes the accomplishments of those men as the equivalent of a Major League. Which they were already doing when they started inducting Negro Leaguers into the Baseball Hall of Fame.

The fact they didn’t do this in 1969 when they elevated the Players League, Federal League, heck, the Union Association, etc, has always been puzzling. This is about 5 decades late. If they had done it then no one would think anything of it anymore than they think about the Union Association being a Major League.

And again, this was announced months ago.

[no10pin]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

The idea that integration was complete after Robinson debuted is absurd.

No one said that. Your own post showed that the owners took advantage of the situation once the door was open.

There's a major difference between that being the reason they allowed for integration to happen vs. using it as a way to line their own pockets after it started.

[TheFrenzy]

Originally Posted by no10pin

No one said that. Your own post showed that the owners took advantage of the situation once the door was open.

There's a major difference between that being the reason they allowed for integration to happen vs. using it as a way to line their own pockets after it started.

Brace yourself for the next reframing of "what he actually meant."

[awz50]

Originally Posted by jplarson

That's not how assertions work. You make the claim, you got to back it up buddy.

People love to say look it up yourself, and if you do that and retort back to them the source (if you ever actually find one) that will be them too finding any kind of "source".

[eye4talent]

Originally Posted by cardsin47

Perhaps the deeper issue is this appears to be just another WOKE attempt to make what isn’t, what is ….
We are now merging 2 different Leagues and ‘acting as if’ the Players faced each other. If I’m the only here that finds that absurd??? …then so be it …..

I’m not the least bit surprised that this is where you ended up going with it. Objection to an enlightened understanding of history tends to align with the intellectual laziness (or intellectual ineptitude) of those who wield around “woke” as an insult.

Here’s a thought: Maybe the Negro Leagues offered a better brand of baseball. Maybe all this time we’ve revered the USFL of pre-war baseball, while the real stars have been unfairly relegated as second-class historical figures thanks to your great grandfathers. (Oh, I’m sorry. Are you too afraid of feeling guilty for unpleasant truths about your ancestors? It’s okay. I’m a descendant of Stonewall Jackson, and it’s no skin off my back to scream from the rooftops that he was on the wrong side of history.)

Or, maybe the white leagues and the Negro Leagues were comparable, but only one has held a prominent place in American lore because of racial segregation. Just as people look back on slavery and Jim Crow and lynching and fire hoses turned on peaceful protesters as a lineage of outrageous injustice, so, too, do people look back at the collusion to keep non-whites from playing major league baseball to be a shameful reality of the past—and an indignity to both the Black players from that era and to generations of baseball fans who’ve largely been kept in the dark about some of the absolute best to have ever played the game.

But sorry that this “woke” decision is going to diminish the collectibility of your million-dollar cards. This is the actual reality that baseball historians should be focused on.


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[jplarson]

Originally Posted by no10pin

No one said that. Your own post showed that the owners took advantage of the situation once the door was open.

There's a major difference between that being the reason they allowed for integration to happen vs. using it as a way to line their own pockets after it started.

Well said and what everyone else understood with one exception.

Originally Posted by awz50

People love to say look it up yourself, and if you do that and retort back to them the source (if you ever actually find one) that will be them too finding any kind of "source".

+1.

The "do your own research" crowd is wild.

[Boredlawyer]

To be fair, OP strikes me as the type to send chain mail jokes via email in 2024.

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[mikejones]

Originally Posted by Crosby 87

what?

Leave Brittany Alone. "Chris Cocker"

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by Skipscards

It simply recognizes the accomplishments of those men as the equivalent of a Major League. Which they were already doing when they started inducting Negro Leaguers into the Baseball Hall of Fame.

The fact they didn’t do this in 1969 when they elevated the Players League, Federal League, heck, the Union Association, etc, has always been puzzling. This is about 5 decades late. If they had done it then no one would think anything of it anymore than they think about the Union Association being a Major League.

And again, this was announced months ago.

But I see it more as appropriation than recognition. MLB is taking the stats of another league -- one with players it shunned and owners it forced out of business -- for its own record books. That is injustice, in my opinion.