Read today that Negro League will be merged with MLB stats….

[OhioLawyerF5]

There is definitely a valid, rational discussion to be had on both sides of this issue. But the constant calling anyone racist who believes the statistics of separate leagues should be kept separate is completely out of line. The people posting valid concerns about combining the statistics are not doing so for racist reasons. Just stop.

[ThoseBackPages]

Ichiro!

NIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIICE!!!!!!!

[JRX]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

There is definitely a valid, rational discussion to be had on both sides of this issue. But the constant calling anyone racist who believes the statistics of separate leagues should be kept separate is completely out of line. The people posting valid concerns about combining the statistics are not doing so for racist reasons. Just stop.

But totally expected.

[awz50]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

There is definitely a valid, rational discussion to be had on both sides of this issue. But the constant calling anyone racist who believes the statistics of separate leagues should be kept separate is completely out of line. The people posting valid concerns about combining the statistics are not doing so for racist reasons. Just stop.

Valid concerns being the key phrase

[rms13]

Originally Posted by mfw13

The problem with non-counting stats, especially those that include ballpark effects, is that it's almost impossible to go back and retroactively collect & calculate said data. In this case, we have NO IDEA what was normal for the ballparks that the Negro League played in.

Same thing will ALL 20th century defensive data, since most games were NOT televised and you have no idea where the ball was hit in relationship to fielders.

And it also should be noted that Negro League seasons were much shorter than MLB season, making fatigue much less of a factor.

So with regards to a catcher like Josh Gibson, we have no idea how his stats would have been affected by catching 150 games a season instead of 50.

Another argument for why WAR is garbage

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by awz50

Valid concerns being the key phrase

You don't decide what is valid. Keeping records from different leagues with different circumstance separate is valid, whether you acknowledge it or not.

And even if you believe their position is invalid, that doesn't make them racist. That is a lazy argument and has no business being thrown out here.

[mfw13]

Originally Posted by rms13

Another argument for why WAR is garbage

I don't think WAR is "garbage", but you do need to be cognizant of its limitations and flaws when using it in arguments, as is the case with all statistics.

[rms13]

Originally Posted by gmarutiak

Serious question: I've always read that Josh Gibson might have had over 900 career homeruns. Why isn't this reflected in a project that took three years to complete?

If you project his numbers to the same career AB as Bonds then he would have had 753 HR. And that of course assumes he kept the same pace into his early 40s. But it doesn't matter becuase there is a guy who hit well over 800 HR and his name is Sadaharu Oh and MLB, HOF and the hobby could care less about him

[FatButcher]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

You don't decide what is valid. Keeping records from different leagues with different circumstance separate is valid, whether you acknowledge it or not.

And even if you believe their position is invalid, that doesn't make them racist. That is a lazy argument and has no business being thrown out here.

I believe the inciting phrase of 'WOKE" (all caps like OP intended) drove quite a bit of the inferred racist intent early in the thread. That doesn't sound like someone coming at this as a statistician at heart.

[rms13]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

There is definitely a valid, rational discussion to be had on both sides of this issue. But the constant calling anyone racist who believes the statistics of separate leagues should be kept separate is completely out of line. The people posting valid concerns about combining the statistics are not doing so for racist reasons. Just stop.

Unfortantely it seems like the majority of the western world and the majority of BO Forum has been brainwashed that anyone who doesn't agree with their precious personal opinion is a racist nazi. Not many people can have a rational discussion about any topic anymore

[TheFrenzy]

CPA left us too soon.

[awz50]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

You don't decide what is valid. Keeping records from different leagues with different circumstance separate is valid, whether you acknowledge it or not.

And even if you believe their position is invalid, that doesn't make them racist. That is a lazy argument and has no business being thrown out here.

I did not say I am deciding what is valid. All I was saying is valid concerns is the key phrase, who knows what is valid? Everyone will have a different opinion of what is valid. I stated that valid concerns should be put into the air and the other stuff can be put on the side. Though we are already past that point, this thread will continue to go downhill as it is.

I agree that having an invalid position IN MY EYES does not make them racist I agree with that. SOME positions you can tell straight from when they started typing though, it was not just from the point of someone who cared about making the stats right/legitimate and did have another agenda/thoughts/opinions hiding behind it.

[awz50]

Originally Posted by rms13

Unfortantely it seems like the majority of the western world and the majority of BO Forum has been brainwashed that anyone who doesn't agree with their precious personal opinion is a racist nazi. Not many people can have a rational discussion about any topic anymore

I would argue about the majority. BO used to swing one way heavily and has been more middle of the road in the last 8 years.

[THE(NEXT)LEVEL]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

You don't decide what is valid. Keeping records from different leagues with different circumstance separate is valid, whether you acknowledge it or not.

And even if you believe their position is invalid, that doesn't make them racist. That is a lazy argument and has no business being thrown out here.

^^^^^^^THIS 110%

[fulltritty]

Originally Posted by awz50

I would argue about the majority. BO used to swing one way heavily and has been more middle of the road in the last 8 years.

You obviously don't venture into Off Topic and the political threads of the last few elections or the attempts at political threads in the absence of one this year.

[awz50]

Originally Posted by fulltritty

You obviously don't venture into Off Topic and the political threads of the last few elections or the attempts at political threads in the absence of one this year.

Yeah im good on all that

[cardsin47]

Originally Posted by SleepyWill

Wow, first of all there's a lot of deep rooted <insert multiple phrases here> found within just your first couple of comments. Lost a lot of respect for you.

As a collector, I don't see how this impacts my collecting habits, strategy, or the reasons why I love the hobby. Hopefully this provides depth, stories, and icons to the sport moving forward, again not really seeing any negatives here.

You lost respect for me and my deep rooted “insert multiple phrases”, because I vehemently don’t think the stats of 2 different leagues should merge?

Ok…. I think I’ll live

[rms13]

Originally Posted by awz50

I would argue about the majority. BO used to swing one way heavily and has been more middle of the road in the last 8 years.

Posssibly and I'm exagerating a bit for effect. And to be more accurate this only applies to people on the internet. I'd say only a small percentage of people express these unhinged extreme opinions face to face in the real world. But is is ridiculous that conversations on a basebll card forumn 2024 have to devolve into politics and name calling. It is not logical to intergrate stats from any league outside of MLB into MLB's historical stats. There is no way that makes sense. But it does make sense to recognize negro league players and NPB and KBO and Mexican League and Cuban league and all other professional baseball orginizations and the contributions and accomplishments of those players. But do it in a seperate "all professional baseball" category and don't try to re write history and pretend these guys played in MLB. The baseball HOF which is for all baseball has recognized Negro League for a long time but they still don't recognize players for other professional leagues who have made huge contributions to the game. There is a lot of hypocracy in all of it which makes it hard to take any of it seriously

[TheFrenzy]

Originally Posted by rms13

t is not logical to intergrate stats from any league outside of MLB into MLB's historical stats.

Have you been upset over MLB counting stats from before 1903?

[bub838]

Originally Posted by SleepyWill

Some general information on this for anyone who cares to know.

https://www.mlb.com/news/faq-negro-l...-league-record

Good article.

But should these stats and records be viewed differently than AL or NL records?

As with all statistics, this is up to the beholder. We can already consider the context of leagues such as the American Association or Federal League and view their statistics either separately from the AL and NL or jointly with the AL and NL. In this regard, the Negro Leagues are no different.

Furthermore, within the AL and NL, we can understand that certain seasons – be it the “Year of the Pitcher” in 1968 (prior to the alteration of the mound), a strike-shortened season like 1994 or the pandemic-impacted 2020 – are statistically anomalous and therefore worthy of added context in discussion. With the Negro Leagues, the most important context is that these players were ignored by MLB because of their skin color and their leagues were left to fend for themselves financially.

Ultimately, the Special Baseball Records Committee that convened in 1969 ruled that “Major League Baseball shall have one set of records, starting in 1876, without any arbitrary division into nineteenth- and twentieth-century.” The Negro Leagues, at long last, now fold into this record set.

[cardsin47]

There are some accusations of racism within this Thread, and am not sure how many are directed at me. Since I would be naive to think none of them are directed at me, let me say once again that I think it’s absolutely absurd to merge the Stats of the present MLB with a / any prior league from the past, blend the stats together, and “act as if” the 2 leagues (statically) actually played with and against each other.

My friends - where is the prejudice in that? I’ll wait…



.

[Jazz Chisholm]

Originally Posted by cardsin47

There are some accusations of racism within this Thread, and am not sure how many are directed at me. Since I would be naive to think none of them are directed at me, let me say once again that I think it’s absolutely absurd to merge the Stats of the present MLB with a / any prior league from the past, blend the stats together, and “act as if” the 2 leagues (statically) actually played with and against each other.

My friends - where is the prejudice in that? I’ll wait…

.

Aww, is the bozo who calls black players ‘thugs’ and tells them to ‘stay in their lane’ getting accused of racism again?

You hate to see it

[Dodgerfan74]

Question about Negro Leagues stadiums. We’re the stadiums smaller than the Major League stadiums of the era. If so that impacts homeruns hit

[cardsin47]

Originally Posted by Jazz Chisholm

Aww, is the bozo who calls black players ‘thugs’ and tells them to ‘stay in their lane’ getting accused of racism again?

You hate to see it

1. I’m too short to play Bozo in any Carnival or Movie
2. I called bad apple players thugs, and it was not racial - that’s your assumption ( maybe you need to look in the mirror? )
3. My wife uses the term ‘stay in their lane’ ( what you’re driving at here I have no idea ), but I don’t. ( that I recall ) Please post without editing where I said that, and the sentences before and after for proper context

Once again, I’ll wait ..



.

[Jazz Chisholm]

Originally Posted by cardsin47

1. I’m too short to play Bozo in any Carnival or Movie
2. I called bad apple players thugs, and it was not racial - that’s your assumption ( maybe you need to look in the mirror? )
3. My wife uses the term ‘stay in their lane’ ( what you’re driving at here I have no idea ), but I don’t. Please post without editing where I said that, and the sentences before and after for proper context

Once again, I’ll wait ..



.

This has been explained to you in numerous other threads by numerous other people. If you’re too dumb or hardheaded to get it, tough #@#@#@#@. Change your outdated ways or get called a racist.