The Price Index Carnage Is Real

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by bub838

Hey now, we have Firsts in Flagship starting this year! They even got the stamps right in Series 2. Haha!

Topps first Clayton Kershaw 18th year dodger rookie cards??!???

Where do I sign up?

[JRX]

Originally Posted by bub838

Hey now, we have Firsts in Flagship starting this year! They even got the stamps right in Series 2. Haha!

Seems like a precursor to making more cards of deceased players.

[seanrs1]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

They’ve had more reverence than the rookie logo card since the beginning of their creation, don’t let anybody try to convince you otherwise.

One singular identifiable first bowman card. It doesn’t get easier or more iconic than that.

I guess that is one simple take...but it doesn't seem to pass the sniff test. It would seem if collectors were logical they would not flock to the first photo shopped prospect card. To be iconic you would think it would have to be their RC card...or actually their RC debut card that is an actual photo from their first MLB game.

In terms of value...a bowman paper 1st in general sells for less that a flagship paper RC card. Comparing a bowman chrome 1st and Topps chrome RC card it can be variable. For instance Mookie Betts Bowman chrome 1st sells for much less than his Topps chrome RC.

The market speaks...but its not always logical (at least to me).

[80s Kid]

Originally Posted by seanrs1

I guess that is one simple take...but it doesn't seem to pass the sniff test. It would seem if collectors were logical they would not flock to the first photo shopped prospect card. To be iconic you would think it would have to be their RC card...or actually their RC debut card that is an actual photo from their first MLB game.

In terms of value...a bowman paper 1st in general sells for less that a flagship paper RC card. Comparing a bowman chrome 1st and Topps chrome RC card it can be variable. For instance Mookie Betts Bowman chrome 1st sells for much less than his Topps chrome RC.

The market speaks...but its not always logical (at least to me).

The problem is you are then putting the Topps Now card as the RC card. Or the Call-Up when Topps wants to wait until the next year for the RC.

Or a variation in Topps flagship series two that is an SP of a non rookie who was unlucky enough to have a rookie steal their card number.

Its all muddled which just goes back to why its hard to maintain prices when there are so many cards to choose, so many breakers opening product for the rare hit, and not enough people who actually want to collect the cards.

[seanrs1]

Originally Posted by 80s Kid

The problem is you are then putting the Topps Now card as the RC card. Or the Call-Up when Topps wants to wait until the next year for the RC.

Or a variation in Topps flagship series two that is an SP of a non rookie who was unlucky enough to have a rookie steal their card number.

Its all muddled which just goes back to why its hard to maintain prices when there are so many cards to choice and not enough people who actually want to collect the cards.

No, not a topps Now card!!! I am talking about a flagship RC debut card in series1,2 or update that has the debut date on the card along with an actual photo from their debut.

[JRX]

I think its definitely shifted in the last few years. Take Soto and Acuna, their RC are far more popular than their 1st Bowman. as long as you are ignoring the autos. However, with the recent move to sps in every product its more difficult as a collector to figure out which is the rc to get and its much easier to just get the 1st Bowman.

[Qubits]

Originally Posted by seanrs1

I guess that is one simple take...but it doesn't seem to pass the sniff test. It would seem if collectors were logical they would not flock to the first photo shopped prospect card. To be iconic you would think it would have to be their RC card...or actually their RC debut card that is an actual photo from their first MLB game.

In terms of value...a bowman paper 1st in general sells for less that a flagship paper RC card. Comparing a bowman chrome 1st and Topps chrome RC card it can be variable. For instance Mookie Betts Bowman chrome 1st sells for much less than his Topps chrome RC.

The market speaks...but its not always logical (at least to me).

Using Mookie Betts as your example here is flawed because those cards were released in the same year.

[bub838]

Originally Posted by JRX

Seems like a precursor to making more cards of deceased players.

I'm surprised there aren't "In Memoriam" cards the year after a notable player passes away.

[seanrs1]

Originally Posted by Qubits

Using Mookie Betts as your example here is flawed because those cards were released in the same year.

That is exactly why I used that example! I assume the Topps chrome RC print run is lower than the bowman chrome 1st and hence the difference in price.

[JRX]

Originally Posted by seanrs1

That is exactly why I used that example! I assume the Topps chrome RC print run is lower than the bowman chrome 1st and hence the difference in price.

Mookie also doesn't have 100s of different "RC" cards.

[anusinha]

Topps should make a “First RC Card” logo

[JRX]

Originally Posted by anusinha

Topps should make a “First RC Card” logo

Well they did try 1st Edition lol. What's interesting though is topps doesn't really care, they're in the business of selling wax not singles so from their perspective they should be loading up products with sps and parallels to create hits for breaks.

[ScooterD]

The Bowman 1sts are no better than RCs. Alex Bregman has a bowman first in 2010, 2011, and 2016.

[JMStang]

Originally Posted by ScooterD

The Bowman 1sts are no better than RCs. Alex Bregman has a bowman first in 2010, 2011, and 2016.

Not quite the same. 2016 is the 1st Bowman. The others were Team USA or College issues.


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[seanrs1]

Juan Soto does not have a bowman 1st paper or chrome, so it makes it easier to chose RC cards for him!

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by seanrs1

No, not a topps Now card!!! I am talking about a flagship RC debut card in series1,2 or update that has the debut date on the card along with an actual photo from their debut.

Aren’t Ohtani’s 2018 bowman and heritage rookie logo card issues photoshopped as well? His heritage came out before he even played in an MLB game!

[hermanotarjeta]

Topps rookie logo cards are for those who “missed the boat” the first time around!

[MiamiMarlinsFan]

Originally Posted by bub838

I'm surprised there aren't "In Memoriam" cards the year after a notable player passes away.

They should have “In Memoriam” cards for when a player loses their Hobby Love. So 2024 would have Wander’s In Memoriam. We could even have auto refractors too since it’s not like he’s busy doing anything else at the moment.

[seanrs1]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

Aren’t Ohtani’s 2018 bowman and heritage rookie logo card issues photoshopped as well? His heritage came out before he even played in an MLB game!

Yes! That is why I think your bowman 1st misses the mark. It is clear that bowman 1st and RC shield cards are the most popular/demanded cards of a player and command the most premium/money in the market.

But logically the most iconic card should be the flagship rookie debut card that notes the date of debut and is a picture from the actual game. Clearly the collecting world is not logical!

[ScooterD]

Originally Posted by JMStang

Not quite the same. 2016 is the 1st Bowman. The others were Team USA or College issues.


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Yup - agreed. But the Bowman 1st is on all 3

[tyrith]

Originally Posted by seanrs1

Yes! That is why I think your bowman 1st misses the mark. It is clear that bowman 1st and RC shield cards are the most popular/demanded cards of a player and command the most premium/money in the market.

But logically the most iconic card should be the flagship rookie debut card that notes the date of debut and is a picture from the actual game. Clearly the collecting world is not logical!

Why does logic demand that it work that way? There's nothing inherently logical, or illogical, versus favoring the first card that depicts a player in a pro uniform versus a card that shows them in their 1st MLB game. That's practically the definition of a choice of preference.

That said - yes, the 1st Bowman card is clearly the new iconic card, because it's always the actual first. Even for players in the 80s, they could appear in multiple sets from different manufacturers, and the timing of release doesn't really matter after the fact. But with one manufacturer, the 1st Bowman is the 1st card, and that gives it the pre-eminent place with how the hobby works now.

There's still room for these cards to become iconic, although I mostly agree with KhalDrogo here - the issue the last few years is that the players haven't really gotten there after Soto/Acuna. That said, Bobby Witt's 2020 Bowman 1st has certainly got a shot, especially because that card is heavily tied to the boom and the COVID boom will always have a special place in the history of the hobby. It could wind up being this generation's version of the 89 Griffey...if he performs. Same could happen with Gunnar, Julio, or Elly, but we won't be able to tell for five years.

[tyrith]

Originally Posted by ScooterD

Yup - agreed. But the Bowman 1st is on all 3

They did dumb things with the Team USA cards for a couple of years in there, but then they realized that was just degrading the value of their core set and kind of treated it like it never happened. The collector market pretty much agrees with that assessment, which is why it'll stick.

[redauto5]

Originally Posted by Qubits

Using Mookie Betts as your example here is flawed because those cards were released in the same year.

Exactly. Kyle Tucker's 2015 Bowman Chrome 1st is a $7 card, while his 2019 Topps Chrome RC is a $3 card. This may be an opposite extreme as there are 4 years difference in King Tucks 1st to RC logo and print runs soared between 2015 bowman and 2019 TC but in general the bowman 1st base commands more than flagship or TC RC logo base.

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[seanrs1]

Originally Posted by tyrith

Why does logic demand that it work that way? There's nothing inherently logical, or illogical, versus favoring the first card that depicts a player in a pro uniform versus a card that shows them in their 1st MLB game. That's practically the definition of a choice of preference.

That said - yes, the 1st Bowman card is clearly the new iconic card, because it's always the actual first. Even for players in the 80s, they could appear in multiple sets from different manufacturers, and the timing of release doesn't really matter after the fact. But with one manufacturer, the 1st Bowman is the 1st card, and that gives it the pre-eminent place with how the hobby works now.

There's still room for these cards to become iconic, although I mostly agree with KhalDrogo here - the issue the last few years is that the players haven't really gotten there after Soto/Acuna. That said, Bobby Witt's 2020 Bowman 1st has certainly got a shot, especially because that card is heavily tied to the boom and the COVID boom will always have a special place in the history of the hobby. It could wind up being this generation's version of the 89 Griffey...if he performs. Same could happen with Gunnar, Julio, or Elly, but we won't be able to tell for five years.

I don't disagree with you...I was mainly replying to hermano...he used the word iconic. The discussion was on iconic images...ie Griffey 89 UD or Trout 2011 US175. Hermano was like the bowman 1st is the best. My only point was that how can a photo shopped prospect card be "iconic." To me the stadium club photos seem to be the nicest/most interesting. But if Topps wanted to make "iconic" cards...to me it would be logically to get a great action shot from their MLB debut game. That way you get a card from their MLB debut. But I digress. This is more like a conditioning response than anything else. Collectors are taught to value the #1 or first of anything collectable. Usually the first was normally the rarest too. But when it comes to modern baseball cards...no base bowman 1st or flagship RC shield card is going to be rare.

I also agree with Khal. There has to be major demand...like best player in the game...will be HOF...demand. I feel like Tatis Jr. in 2020/2021 had that type of demand...but so did a lot of other players with the Covid boom.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by seanrs1

Yes! That is why I think your bowman 1st misses the mark. It is clear that bowman 1st and RC shield cards are the most popular/demanded cards of a player and command the most premium/money in the market.

But logically the most iconic card should be the flagship rookie debut card that notes the date of debut and is a picture from the actual game. Clearly the collecting world is not logical!

I think what makes the bowman first stand out is that it can be released up to eight years earlier than a player’s first rookie logo card.

The truest essence of a player’s most desired card is their debut in a nationally released MLB licensed product - and that’s exactly what bowman first is. Not the rookie logo card.