2024 topps update should be loaded! Right?

[everyone]

Is there a 1/1 Tiger King auto or some gimmick that will pull me in to buying a box of this?

[Jboff73]

Originally Posted by MotorboatJones

No breaks and no boxes of this for me. Simply not worth the money.

I always get excited at first and then I realize that I'd rather just get the Chrome versions of these cards. Maybe just buy a few singles on Ebay from the desperate-to-break-even degenerates who prop up the breakers.

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

But you said so yourself, it costs more to buy one unit individually than the entire box itself.

“buying one can of pop 12 times is going to cost more than buying a 12-pack”

Folks buying in to breaks are actually paying more for the luxury of having an individual spot and having someone else open it for them on that video stream and having it shipped to them.

That increases prices for everyone, including folks who like to open boxes themselves - the breaker culture and box flipper bois all empower fanatics to charge more for product.

Except you as an individual are not buying the 12 cans individually all at once. One can of pop for $1 is still less than 12 cans for $8 when you only want one can. This concept applies for pretty much everything. Buying individually will almost always cost more per unit than buying in bulk.

When you buy singles, you're collectively going to pay more for that box of cards, right? That $100 card you bought out of a $200 box of cards that had 300 cards in it means you paid more for that card than you should have. Because buying that box means you would've have only paid $.67 for that card.

But it's just breakers that are causing prices to go up? Nothing else has an effect on prices?

[msucollector4]

Originally Posted by whitmm

Except you as an individual are not buying the 12 cans individually all at once. One can of pop for $1 is still less than 12 cans for $8 when you only want one can. This concept applies for pretty much everything. Buying individually will almost always cost more per unit than buying in bulk.

When you buy singles, you're collectively going to pay more for that box of cards, right? That $100 card you bought out of a $200 box of cards that had 300 cards in it means you paid more for that card than you should have. Because buying that box means you would've have only paid $.67 for that card.

But it's just breakers that are causing prices to go up? Nothing else has an effect on prices?

That is obvious not the only reason prices have gone up. But how can you look at the constant casino rooms running on multiple platforms with duck races, wheels, and live auctions and not see a massive issue with that?

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by msucollector4

If you fail to see the issue with group breaking being the main avenue for new collectors opening up product in the hobby, I dont know what to tell you

Why is it an issue? Why are you so concern about how new "collectors" are getting into the hobby?

So which is it? Are collectors going the route of breaking, or is it the flipper bois? Because all I see here is people crying that the only people buying into breaks are degenerate gamblers chasing a massive pay day.

How is a collector buying into a PYT break to only get the cards of the team he wants to collect any different than him buying singles? He's paying a slightly higher price to only get the items he wants.

Sorry, when I see someone with hundreds or thousands of ebay listings, I no longer believe they are speaking on behalf of the "collector."

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by whitmm

Except you as an individual are not buying the 12 cans individually all at once. One can of pop for $1 is still less than 12 cans for $8 when you only want one can. This concept applies for pretty much everything. Buying individually will almost always cost more per unit than buying in bulk.

When you buy singles, you're collectively going to pay more for that box of cards, right? That $100 card you bought out of a $200 box of cards that had 300 cards in it means you paid more for that card than you should have. Because buying that box means you would've have only paid $.67 for that card.

But it's just breakers that are causing prices to go up? Nothing else has an effect on prices?

It doesn’t matter if a single individual is buying 12 individual cans or twelve different individuals are buying twelve different cans. Collectively, they are paying more for the box than a single 12 can box would cost.

That higher price they pay for the box empowers the breakers to permissibly pay more for a box themselves to enact their breaks which permissibly allows and enables the companies to charge more for the box directly. It’s all intertwined, not a single entity that has caused box prices to skyrocket. Add in box flipper bois who are additional middlemen who sell to breakers for a profit and other wax investors looking for a profit and the overall cost of unopened boxes goes up for everyone.

Do you see how that works?

Ultimately, for the individual box opening hobbyist, you are essentially forced to pay the “breaker culture rate” in order to enjoy opening a box for yourself, because the companies will not sell boxes to individuals for their personal enjoyment for less money if they can get more money from the breakers and their johns who must feed their addiction and are unaware that they are actually paying more for their box collectively due to your soda can example above.

[msucollector4]

Originally Posted by whitmm

Why is it an issue? Why are you so concern about how new "collectors" are getting into the hobby?

So which is it? Are collectors going the route of breaking, or is it the flipper bois? Because all I see here is people crying that the only people buying into breaks are degenerate gamblers chasing a massive pay day.

How is a collector buying into a PYT break to only get the cards of the team he wants to collect any different than him buying singles? He's paying a slightly higher price to only get the items he wants.

Sorry, when I see someone with hundreds or thousands of ebay listings, I no longer believe they are speaking on behalf of the "collector."

Ok man, guess I am not a collector because I like to have my collection be self-sustainable.

Most breakers are a stain on this hobby. What site do you break on?

[msucollector4]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

It doesn’t matter if a single individual is buying 12 individual cans or twelve different individuals are buying twelve different cans. Collectively, they are paying more for the box than a single 12 can box would cost.

That higher price they pay for the box empowers the breakers to permissibly pay more for a box themselves to enact their breaks which permissibly allows and enables the companies to charge more for the box directly. It’s all intertwined, not a single entity that has caused box prices to skyrocket. Add in box flipper bois who are additional middlemen who sell to breakers for a profit and other wax investors looking for a profit and the overall cost of unopened boxes goes up for everyone.

Do you see how that works?

Ultimately, for the individual box opening hobbyist, you are essentially forced to pay the “breaker culture rate” in order to enjoy opening a box for yourself, because the companies will not sell boxes to individuals for their personal enjoyment for less money if they can get more money from the breakers and their johns who must feed their addiction and are unaware that they are actually paying more for their box collectively due to your soda can example above.

This^^^

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by msucollector4

Ok man, guess I am not a collector because I like to have my collection be self-sustainable.

Most breakers are a stain on this hobby. What site do you break on?

I don't break.

So, how are you any different that someone buying into a break? You're buying that box hoping that the cards that you aren't chasing for your collection are going to fund your next purchase. Sounds exactly like the person buying into a break hoping for a card worth more than the spot they purchased.

Again, who is buying into breaks? Because the common theme here is that collectors aren't buying into breaks, it's only degenerate gamblers.

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by msucollector4

That is obvious not the only reason prices have gone up. But how can you look at the constant casino rooms running on multiple platforms with duck races, wheels, and live auctions and not see a massive issue with that?

Well, casinos aren't sports cards.

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

It doesn’t matter if a single individual is buying 12 individual cans or twelve different individuals are buying twelve different cans. Collectively, they are paying more for the box than a single 12 can box would cost.

That higher price they pay for the box empowers the breakers to permissibly pay more for a box themselves to enact their breaks which permissibly allows and enables the companies to charge more for the box directly. It’s all intertwined, not a single entity that has caused box prices to skyrocket. Add in box flipper bois who are additional middlemen who sell to breakers for a profit and other wax investors looking for a profit and the overall cost of unopened boxes goes up for everyone.

Do you see how that works?

Ultimately, for the individual box opening hobbyist, you are essentially forced to pay the “breaker culture rate” in order to enjoy opening a box for yourself, because the companies will not sell boxes to individuals for their personal enjoyment for less money if they can get more money from the breakers and their johns who must feed their addiction and are unaware that they are actually paying more for their box collectively due to your soda can example above.

The LCS selling 12 individual boxes for more than the cost of a case is the same thing. Those 12 people that box loose boxes collectively paid more for that case.

Are you fine with that?

[msucollector4]

Originally Posted by whitmm

Well, casinos aren't sports cards.

You are right, sorry. Casinos are more transparent than the average breaker room on Whatnot

[bub838]

Originally Posted by msucollector4

You are right, sorry. Casinos are more transparent than the average breaker room on Whatnot

Casinos are actually regulated!

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by msucollector4

You are right, sorry. Casinos are more transparent than the average breaker room on Whatnot

You missed the point. Casinos are a different subject. Or if you want to consider them the same because of the gambling aspect, then you better make damn sure you're considering the guy selling an unknown card (breakers) and the known card the same.

Would it make you feel better if a breaker on Whatnot told the bulk cost of the box? Would you be okay if the breaker announced that the total cost of the spots equaled, say, $400, and that the cost to buy the entire box yourself would be $350? End of the day, the person that only wants one team because they have the big rookie chase is going to gladly spend the money at $20 a pop instead of spending $350 to get a bunch of cards they aren't interested in.

[StlBen]

So.....any chance anyone wants to talk about this product instead of beating off topic dead horses?

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by whitmm

The LCS selling 12 individual boxes for more than the cost of a case is the same thing. Those 12 people that box loose boxes collectively paid more for that case.

Are you fine with that?

Actually no. I dont know any shops that give a sealed case discount versus 12 individual boxes on higher demand items. I do see that from time to time on products they can’t move like heritage or flagship.

Do you want to know why?

Because there is a higher demand for sealed cases by guess who? The breakers. They will in fact PAY HiGHER for a sealed case premium because that’s what their Johns want. How do you think flawless and NT prices spiraled out of control?

Nobody wants single boxes because Johns believe that the case hits are already gone. In today’s market, I frequently find single boxes that are less expensive than the cost of a sealed case, particular for higher end product.

There’s a reason many shops don’t want to open a sealed case just to sell one box, it destroys the premium that breakers and their Johns demand and want to pay higher for.

Does that make sense?

If you pull back out a bit, now can you see how that enables the manufacturers to charge even more for that sealed case product premium?

In the end it still hurts the individual box breaker by forcing them to pay the breaker culture rate to open a single box.

Two very different situations you are describing. A break participant is very different than an individual box breaker in that respect because the John is paying more to open the box overall.

[RainCityShecks]

Originally Posted by StlBen

So.....any chance anyone wants to talk about this product instead of beating off topic dead horses?

You mean this isn't the flippers/gamblers/political commentary where everyone has pandemic money let's complain as it's the downfall of card collecting forum?

The chrome and sapphire version of this release should be pretty sweet. Looking forward to it.

[StlBen]

My LCS for sure has discounts for cases over individual boxes. Heck look at Blowout, cases are cheaper than boxes on almost EVERY product....
But anyways Topps Update. Can't wait for them to be on Fanatics site as I have some credit to use there.

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

Actually no. I dont know any shops that give a sealed case discount versus 12 individual boxes on higher demand items. I do see that from time to time on products they can’t move like heritage or flagship.

Do you want to know why?

Because there is a higher demand for sealed cases by guess who? The breakers. They will in fact PAY HiGHER for a sealed case premium because that’s what their Johns want. How do you think flawless and NT prices spiraled out of control?

Nobody wants single boxes because Johns believe that the case hits are already gone. In today’s market, I frequently find single boxes that are less expensive than the cost of a sealed case, particular for higher end product.

There’s a reason many shops don’t want to open a sealed case just to sell one box, it destroys the premium that breakers and their Johns demand and want to pay higher for.

Does that make sense?

If you pull back out a bit, now can you see how that enables the manufacturers to charge even more for that sealed case product premium?

In the end it still hurts the individual box breaker by forcing them to pay the breaker culture rate to open a single box.

Two very different situations you are describing. A break participant is very different than an individual box breaker in that respect because the John is paying more to open the box overall.

Take a look at BO's pricing. You'll see that the case cost is less the price of that many boxes at the individual rate. Break it down further. When a card shop sells individual packs, the sum of those packs tends to cost more than the entire box.

No, you don't make any sense. A sealed case, in general, does not have a premium mark up over an individual box. It's the opposite in most instances.

The collective isn't the individual. 12 people buying that individual can is never going to cost any of those individuals personally more than the price of the bulk product.

[armyml]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

Actually no. I dont know any shops that give a sealed case discount versus 12 individual boxes on higher demand items. I do see that from time to time on products they can’t move like heritage or flagship.

Do you want to know why?

Because there is a higher demand for sealed cases by guess who? The breakers. They will in fact PAY HiGHER for a sealed case premium because that’s what their Johns want. How do you think flawless and NT prices spiraled out of control?

Nobody wants single boxes because Johns believe that the case hits are already gone. In today’s market, I frequently find single boxes that are less expensive than the cost of a sealed case, particular for higher end product.

There’s a reason many shops don’t want to open a sealed case just to sell one box, it destroys the premium that breakers and their Johns demand and want to pay higher for.

Does that make sense?

If you pull back out a bit, now can you see how that enables the manufacturers to charge even more for that sealed case product premium?

In the end it still hurts the individual box breaker by forcing them to pay the breaker culture rate to open a single box.

Two very different situations you are describing. A break participant is very different than an individual box breaker in that respect because the John is paying more to open the box overall.

LCS owner here. Some of this is correct but not entirely. There absolutely are regular Johns out here wanting full sealed cases to get guaranteed case hits. They don't necessarily have to be breakers.

I've noticed a lot of peoples hobby sentiment directly correlates to how they decide to engage themselves with the hobby. Spend all your time on Whatnot Breaks or watching The Backyard Dufuses and thats the kind of mindset you have.

Being in a smaller town in Indiana I don't have that type of clientele. I get collectors. I can put a get a 12 box case of Topps Chrome baseball, open it and put it on the shelf as individual boxes, and nobody bats an eye. Nobody is assuming there is some kind of hijinx going on because they aren't online soaking up all the negative hobby stuff.

Prices on NT/Flawless and ALL wax really didn't go up because of breaking.(Or at least solely breaking). Wax went up on basketball 2x/4x across the board because of Luka Doncic, not because of breaking. Then the pandemic happened and Football followed suit because Panini sucks. Look at box prices of NT year over year. Breaking has been around forever but Luka was 2018-2019. Data shows clearly when the huge jump on wax prices was.

Pricing is 100% determined by the Big online stores.(DA/Blowout/Steel City) All the shops go off that when pricing product. MSRP is pointless and shouldn't even exist anymore. All it would take would be for the big online stores to sell wax at a reasonable price and suddenly the problem isn't breakers anymore. Then the new problem is everyone complaining that the prices of all their singles dropped 50%. Its a slippery slope. Whats the answer?

[cardsin47]

Originally Posted by armyml

LCS owner here. All it would take would be for the big online stores to sell wax at a reasonable price and suddenly the problem isn't breakers anymore. Then the new problem is everyone complaining that the prices of all their singles dropped 50%. It’s a slippery slope. Whats the answer?

The answer is there is no answer. Can’t have it both ways ( cheaper wax without negatively affecting the price of singles )

[msucollector4]

Originally Posted by cardsin47

The answer is there is no answer. Can’t have it both ways ( cheaper wax without negatively affecting the price of singles )

Id take cheaper wax and cheaper singles

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by msucollector4

Id take cheaper wax and cheaper singles

Unfortunately, that isn't an option. Because it isn't breakers, or anyone else in the supply chain causing the prices, it's consumers. The fact is that people are paying these prices. The companies raising prices are simply doing what for-profit businesses do, find the highest price the market will sustain.

People need to face the reality that if every breaker disappeared overnight, the cost of wax isn't coming down. It just isn't.

[Mightymango]

Originally Posted by StlBen

My LCS for sure has discounts for cases over individual boxes. Heck look at Blowout, cases are cheaper than boxes on almost EVERY product....
But anyways Topps Update. Can't wait for them to be on Fanatics site as I have some credit to use there.

I wish they would post the checklist to see what I actually am going to be going for on the case I bought. This is the first time I bought a case and at least it is cheaper than all the garbage football card boxes/cases.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by armyml

LCS owner here. Some of this is correct but not entirely. There absolutely are regular Johns out here wanting full sealed cases to get guaranteed case hits. They don't necessarily have to be breakers.

I've noticed a lot of peoples hobby sentiment directly correlates to how they decide to engage themselves with the hobby. Spend all your time on Whatnot Breaks or watching The Backyard Dufuses and thats the kind of mindset you have.

Being in a smaller town in Indiana I don't have that type of clientele. I get collectors. I can put a get a 12 box case of Topps Chrome baseball, open it and put it on the shelf as individual boxes, and nobody bats an eye. Nobody is assuming there is some kind of hijinx going on because they aren't online soaking up all the negative hobby stuff.

Prices on NT/Flawless and ALL wax really didn't go up because of breaking.(Or at least solely breaking). Wax went up on basketball 2x/4x across the board because of Luka Doncic, not because of breaking. Then the pandemic happened and Football followed suit because Panini sucks. Look at box prices of NT year over year. Breaking has been around forever but Luka was 2018-2019. Data shows clearly when the huge jump on wax prices was.

Pricing is 100% determined by the Big online stores.(DA/Blowout/Steel City) All the shops go off that when pricing product. MSRP is pointless and shouldn't even exist anymore. All it would take would be for the big online stores to sell wax at a reasonable price and suddenly the problem isn't breakers anymore. Then the new problem is everyone complaining that the prices of all their singles dropped 50%. Its a slippery slope. Whats the answer?

I wouldn’t say that breakers alone did this and I certainly wouldn’t say Luka caused this madness either, he just happened to be hot when breaking really started to take off.

Breaking actually first started to affect wax as far back as I would say around 2012. I saw NT prices start climbing to pricier levels starting that year and annually on average starting up higher due to more people getting involved in breaks because they were getting priced out or were already priced out of individual boxes. I opened my first NT case in 2012-13 at about $550/box and by 2014-15 I was shocked that it was going to cost me $850/box. 2017-18 it had already risen to $1250/box and has skyrocketed to the $5000/box levels we see today (pandemic/post-pandemic era). It’s not that the players have gotten better, the lottery wins have gotten higher by social media hype and record prices which has fueled the gambling even more.

The whole breaking culture has enabled the manufactures to charge more. Who wouldn’t if the demand is there?