2025 Baseball Hall of Fame

[MiamiMarlinsFan]

Originally Posted by Quake1028

What's your justification for putting CC in but not Andy Pettitte? Or do you think Pettitte should be in as well?

No PED suspicions on CC.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by ottobord

I'd put Guidry and CC in over Pettitte, and Tiant and Schilling in over CC and Guidry.

And David Cone.

ERA Cone 3.46 CC 3.74
ERA+ Cone 121 CC 116
FIP Cone 3.57 CC 3.78
WHIP Cone 1.256 CC 1.259
K/9 Cone 8.3 CC 7.8
HOF Vote Cone 3.9% CC Why would he get 75%?

[ClevelandIC]

Originally Posted by rats60

And David Cone.

ERA Cone 3.46 CC 3.74
ERA+ Cone 121 CC 116
FIP Cone 3.57 CC 3.78
WHIP Cone 1.256 CC 1.259
K/9 Cone 8.3 CC 7.8
HOF Vote Cone 3.9% CC Why would he get 75%?

Because counting stats matter.

[green4407]

Ian Kinsler should get in.

[mfw13]

Originally Posted by ClevelandIC

Sabathia actually did stay healthy and was a very good pitcher for a very long time. Sabathia pitched 25 or more games 17 out of 18 seasons in the 2000's. He was an absolute work horse, 3,500 Career Innings all in the 2000's! His 2008 season alone was one of the most impressive things I've seen from any pitcher in my life. (Up there with 2014 Bumgarner WS Performance)

Except he wasn't actually that great of a pitcher.

Apart from that 2008 season, he didn't have a single other season with a ERA below 3.00 or w WHIP below 1.10.

And even that 2008 season was a bit of a mirage....he was utterly average for Cleveland (3.83 ERA/1.23 WHIP) and then went on that incredible hot streak for about 15 starts once he got traded to Milwaukee.

He's basically Frank Tanana with a few more strikeouts....

[tkraft24]

Originally Posted by mfw13

Except he wasn't actually that great of a pitcher.

Apart from that 2008 season, he didn't have a single other season with a ERA below 3.00 or w WHIP below 1.10.

And even that 2008 season was a bit of a mirage....he was utterly average for Cleveland (3.83 ERA/1.23 WHIP) and then went on that incredible hot streak for about 15 starts once he got traded to Milwaukee.

He's basically Frank Tanana with a few more strikeouts....

Not saying Tanana is a terrible comparison but club memberships matter to voters and in this case "a few more strikeouts" puts CC in small company. Throw in a CYA, twice as many AS appearances, a WS Title and 5 top-5 CYA finishes compared to 2 then the gap certainly feels a lot bigger. CC is also a tremendous person and advocate for the game to finish off a solid resume.

[discodanman45]

The top three retired pitchers that should in the HOF should be Clemens, Kevin Brown, and Tommy John. The first two won't get in for PED's, but Brown was more dominant than any of the names mentioned. Tommy John needs in for his career and surgery. It is the HOF and his name is mentioned more than any retired pitcher.

[gmoney328]

Originally Posted by discodanman45

The top three retired pitchers that should in the HOF should be Clemens, Kevin Brown, and Tommy John. The first two won't get in for PED's, but Brown was more dominant than any of the names mentioned. Tommy John needs in for his career and surgery. It is the HOF and his name is mentioned more than any retired pitcher.

You forgot Schilling.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by ClevelandIC

Because counting stats matter.

Which ones? 288 wins didn't get Tommy John elected to the HOF. 3116 Ks only got Curt Schilling 38.8% on his first ballot. Is it his 12 career shutouts? What is that magic number that makes him a first ballot Hall of Famer with the third highest ERA of any pitcher in the HOF?

[fulltritty]

Originally Posted by hxcmilkshake

Pettite rubs me the wrong way because he has a "big game" reputation among some Yankee fans but he stunk in just about every WS game he ever pitched. Except the Padres game.

But yeah I'm a postseason guy (as long as you have some regular season stuff too, sorry Allen Craig)

Sent from my SM-S928U using Tapatalk

I would say Game 5 of the 1996 World Series where he held Atlanta scoreless in 8.1 innings of a 1-0 game was pretty impressive.

[hxcmilkshake]

Originally Posted by fulltritty

I would say Game 5 of the 1996 World Series where he held Atlanta scoreless in 8.1 innings of a 1-0 game was pretty impressive.

Made up for the shelling he got in game 1. 8 runs in like 2 innings. Mwah!

Sent from my SM-S928U using Tapatalk

[tkraft24]

Originally Posted by rats60

Which ones? 288 wins didn't get Tommy John elected to the HOF. 3116 Ks only got Curt Schilling 38.8% on his first ballot. Is it his 12 career shutouts? What is that magic number that makes him a first ballot Hall of Famer with the third highest ERA of any pitcher in the HOF?

Schilling was obviously “cancelled” by voters so he was effectively thrown into the same category as PED users - fair or not. 3000 has been a magic number, but not magical enough to overcome PEDs or political backlash.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by tkraft24

Schilling was obviously “cancelled” by voters so he was effectively thrown into the same category as PED users - fair or not. 3000 has been a magic number, but not magical enough to overcome PEDs or political backlash.

Wrong. He wasn't "cancelled" until after he was on the ballot and not receiving enough support. If Schilling couldn't get it on the first ballot, there is no reason that a lesser pitcher like CC gets in right away.

Ichiro, Wagner and Jones are the 3 that deserve election on this ballot.

[Handsome Wes]

Originally Posted by Mandy1320

Only correct answer:

Ichiro
Sabathia
Wagner
Francisco Rodriguez
....

Would've voted for them if they didn't get caught cheating:

A-Rod
Manny
Beltran

Write-In:

Bonds
Clemens
Rose

You would write in Bonds / Clemens / Rose but wouldn't vote for A-Rod, Manny, or Beltran?

[Quake1028]

Originally Posted by rats60

Wrong. He wasn't "cancelled" until after he was on the ballot and not receiving enough support. If Schilling couldn't get it on the first ballot, there is no reason that a lesser pitcher like CC gets in right away.

Ichiro, Wagner and Jones are the 3 that deserve election on this ballot.

Wrong. Schilling had plenty of animosity with and was a dick towards the writers far before whatever the cancelling thing was. He was punished for that on the ballot 100%.

[Bosoxfan5990]

Originally Posted by Quake1028

Wrong. Schilling had plenty of animosity with and was a dick towards the writers far before whatever the cancelling thing was. He was punished for that on the ballot 100%.

He also royally screwed the entire state of Rhode Island.

[tkraft24]

Originally Posted by rats60

Wrong. He wasn't "cancelled" until after he was on the ballot and not receiving enough support. If Schilling couldn't get it on the first ballot, there is no reason that a lesser pitcher like CC gets in right away.

Ichiro, Wagner and Jones are the 3 that deserve election on this ballot.

The whole first ballot thing is weird to me, players are either in or not but there’s so many egos at play. Schilling absolutely would have made the hall eventually.

Looking at Schilling’s first year on the ballot, there’s 13 candidates that would be placed in the HOF and that obviously excludes the likes of Clemens and Bonds who still earned a fair amount of support in voting.

I doubt anyone sees 10 future HOFers on the current ballot which plays in CC’s favor for an expedited path even if he wasn’t as good as Schilling. In the end its pass/fail.

[tkraft24]

Whoops, correction on above, that was Schilling's second year on the ballot.

Still, his first year on the ballot featured 10 future HOFers plus PED offenders so the point still stands.

[JRX]

Originally Posted by Bosoxfan5990

He also royally screwed the entire state of Rhode Island.

Its pretty clear that Schilling was not kept out based on the merits of his pitching career.

[Promethius88]

Originally Posted by JRX

Its pretty clear that Schilling was not kept out based on the merits of his pitching career.

Meanwhile all my 89 Donruss Schilling PSA 9's and 10's sit here collecting dust!

[fabiani12333]

Sabathia is pretty comparable to Tom Glavine:

Sabathia: 87 ERA- (13% better than league average); 6.4 IP/GS (10.3% better than league average); 13.3% SO-BB% (26.6% better than league average); 39.4 WAR7 (102 all-time)

Glavine: 86 ERA-; 6.5 IP/GS (8.3% better than league average); 6.0 SO-BB% (20% below league average); 44.1 WAR7 (71 all-time)

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by Quake1028

Wrong. Schilling had plenty of animosity with and was a dick towards the writers far before whatever the cancelling thing was. He was punished for that on the ballot 100%.

It was a crowded ballot early on as well -- many deserving players:

2013 -- Schilling's first year on the ballot (ranked by voting percentage):

1. Biggio -- HOF
2. Morris -- HOF
3. Bagwell -- HOF
4. Piazza -- HOF
5. Raines -- HOF
6. L. Smith -- HOF
7. Schilling
8. Clemens
9. Bonds
10. E. Martinez --HOF
11. Trammell -- HOF
12. L. Walker -- HOF
13. McGriff -- HOF

No one was voted in that year.

The next year had Maddux, Glavine and Thomas voted in on their first year on the ballot, but none of the deserving holdovers.

[JRX]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

It was a crowded ballot early on as well -- many deserving players:

2013 -- Schilling's first year on the ballot (ranked by voting percentage):

1. Biggio -- HOF
2. Morris -- HOF
3. Bagwell -- HOF
4. Piazza -- HOF
5. Raines -- HOF
6. L. Smith -- HOF
7. Schilling
8. Clemens
9. Bonds
10. E. Martinez --HOF
11. Trammell -- HOF
12. L. Walker -- HOF
13. McGriff -- HOF

No one was voted in that year.

The next year had Maddux, Glavine and Thomas voted in on their first year on the ballot, but none of the deserving holdovers.

So they put in everyone but the actual hall of famers. No other sport does this.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by Handsome Wes

You would write in Bonds / Clemens / Rose but wouldn't vote for A-Rod, Manny, or Beltran?

Many voters distinguish between pre and post PED testing and punishment. A-Rod and Manny got busted post-testing and were suspended.

[itsbaytime]

Bonds, Clemens, Arod and Manny are undoubtedly HOFers by any reasonable metric (barring PEDS). I am all for all 4 of them going on. I would also vote Andruw Jones, Ichiro and CC for this year.