2025 Baseball Hall of Fame

[Mandy1320]

Originally Posted by Handsome Wes

You would write in Bonds / Clemens / Rose but wouldn't vote for A-Rod, Manny, or Beltran?

Where I draw the line for PED use is pretty simple: Bonds and Clemens never broke any rules established by the MLB nor failed any MLB-sanctioned drug tests. MLB, along with the beat reporters that refused to vote for them, profited heavily from both of them (and many other suspected PED users) and then discarded them like trash.

Rose is more of a personal opinion. I think the punishment doesn't fit the crime. He was banned from participating in MLB, that's justified. Not even being put on the ballot doesn't make sense to me especially nowadays.

A-Rod and Manny knowingly and willingly took PEDs and understood the consequences. Beltran unfortunately became the fall guy for the biggest cheating scandal in the modern era.

[erock28]

Originally Posted by rats60

And David Cone.

ERA Cone 3.46 CC 3.74
ERA+ Cone 121 CC 116
FIP Cone 3.57 CC 3.78
WHIP Cone 1.256 CC 1.259
K/9 Cone 8.3 CC 7.8
HOF Vote Cone 3.9% CC Why would he get 75%?

Not necessarily arguing for CC, chiming to to say I had forgotten how good Cone was. I'm not 'anti-counting stat', but excluding him because he didn't get to 200 wins or 3,000 strikeouts is asinine given he has plenty of bold ink, won a CY, won multiple titles and pitched well in the World Series...

It's sick to me that Jack Morris ultimately got in. Comparing Cone to Morris isn't even close save for wins. Cone had 200 MORE strikeouts in 1000 LESS innings. Won more playoff games and had an identical post season ERA. Why did Cone get so little love?

[Mightymango]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

Sabathia is pretty comparable to Tom Glavine:

Sabathia: 87 ERA- (13% better than league average); 6.4 IP/GS (10.3% better than league average); 13.3% SO-BB% (26.6% better than league average); 39.4 WAR7 (102 all-time)

Glavine: 86 ERA-; 6.5 IP/GS (8.3% better than league average); 6.0 SO-BB% (20% below league average); 44.1 WAR7 (71 all-time)

Yes but CC didn't as many world series appearances that Glavine had nor the series MVP. CC has more Cy Young awards but Glavine played with Smoltz and Maddox that the later dominated the award in that decade.

I would like to see CC make it but I doubt first time, I just hope his bust reflects his crooked hat that in my eyes was part of his trademark.

[Quake1028]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

Sabathia is pretty comparable to Tom Glavine:

Sabathia: 87 ERA- (13% better than league average); 6.4 IP/GS (10.3% better than league average); 13.3% SO-BB% (26.6% better than league average); 39.4 WAR7 (102 all-time)

Glavine: 86 ERA-; 6.5 IP/GS (8.3% better than league average); 6.0 SO-BB% (20% below league average); 44.1 WAR7 (71 all-time)

I mean you can cherry pick any stats you want, but Glavine also had:

18.4 more WAR
2 Cy Young's vs. 1
A WS MVP
300 wins

[rats60]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

It was a crowded ballot early on as well -- many deserving players:

2013 -- Schilling's first year on the ballot (ranked by voting percentage):

1. Biggio -- HOF
2. Morris -- HOF Not voted in by BBWAA
3. Bagwell -- HOF
4. Piazza -- HOF
5. Raines -- HOF
6. L. Smith -- HOF Not voted in by BBWAA
7. Schilling
8. Clemens
9. Bonds
10. E. Martinez --HOF
11. Trammell -- HOF Not voted in by BBWAA
12. L. Walker -- HOF
13. McGriff -- HOF Not voted in by BBWAA

No one was voted in that year.

The next year had Maddux, Glavine and Thomas voted in on their first year on the ballot, but none of the deserving holdovers.

Only 6 Hofers on the ballot. Piazza and Bagwell were being punished for suspected PED use, Raines for using coccaine, Martinez for being a DH and Walker for playing in Coors. If 3000Ks was such an automatic like wins, HRs and hits, he would have received more votes since there were no slam dunk candidates taking up slots on the ballot.

[tkraft24]

Originally Posted by rats60

Only 6 Hofers on the ballot. Piazza and Bagwell were being punished for suspected PED use, Raines for using coccaine, Martinez for being a DH and Walker for playing in Coors. If 3000Ks was such an automatic like wins, HRs and hits, he would have received more votes since there were no slam dunk candidates taking up slots on the ballot.

It doesn't matter if some weren't inducted via BBWA - they were still eating up votes w/13 players > 20% on that year's ballot. The ballot also featured: Mattingly and Murphy as well as second tier PED offenders in McGwire and Sosa. Plus, as mentioned already, Schilling had a poor reputation with many voters. No one believes he was left out for his resume on the field.

I hated that year because Kenny Lofton got left behind.

[tkraft24]

The closest comp to make the hall since Schilling's first appearance on the ballot would have to be John Smoltz. The 2015 ballot was more stacked than 2013 so that says a lot about how voters felt about Schilling, personally.

All of this is really to say that if CC Sabathia does not make the HOF that he will become the first member of the 3000 club not to make it purely on his body of work on the field.

[Handsome Wes]

Originally Posted by Mandy1320

Where I draw the line for PED use is pretty simple: Bonds and Clemens never broke any rules established by the MLB nor failed any MLB-sanctioned drug tests. MLB, along with the beat reporters that refused to vote for them, profited heavily from both of them (and many other suspected PED users) and then discarded them like trash.

Rose is more of a personal opinion. I think the punishment doesn't fit the crime. He was banned from participating in MLB, that's justified. Not even being put on the ballot doesn't make sense to me especially nowadays.

A-Rod and Manny knowingly and willingly took PEDs and understood the consequences. Beltran unfortunately became the fall guy for the biggest cheating scandal in the modern era.

Fair enough

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by Quake1028

I mean you can cherry pick any stats you want, but Glavine also had:

18.4 more WAR
2 Cy Young's vs. 1
A WS MVP
300 wins

It's not cherry picking to list key stats like adjusted ERA, IP per game started, K-BB ratio and peak WAR.

Glavine had a longer career and pitched more innings than Sabathia, which is why he had more career WAR and wins. They both had a 162-game average of 3.7 bWAR.

Even though Glavine won two Cy Young Awards, Sabathia had four seasons of 6 or more bWAR -- Glavine only had two.

[Quake1028]

You are 100% cherry picking stats. 300 wins was and still is a big deal.

[awz50]

Originally Posted by tkraft24

The closest comp to make the hall since Schilling's first appearance on the ballot would have to be John Smoltz. The 2015 ballot was more stacked than 2013 so that says a lot about how voters felt about Schilling, personally.

All of this is really to say that if CC Sabathia does not make the HOF that he will become the first member of the 3000 club not to make it purely on his body of work on the field.

I think If CC does not get in we are left with a lot more questions then answers on that one.

[Quake1028]

I mean I think almost all of us expect him to get in. I think how many ballots it takes is the question.

[MiamiMarlinsFan]

Originally Posted by tkraft24

The closest comp to make the hall since Schilling's first appearance on the ballot would have to be John Smoltz. The 2015 ballot was more stacked than 2013 so that says a lot about how voters felt about Schilling, personally.

All of this is really to say that if CC Sabathia does not make the HOF that he will become the first member of the 3000 club not to make it purely on his body of work on the field.

CC is definitely getting into the HOF, the question is first ballot or not.

[Mightymango]

Originally Posted by Mandy1320

Where I draw the line for PED use is pretty simple: Bonds and Clemens never broke any rules established by the MLB nor failed any MLB-sanctioned drug tests. MLB, along with the beat reporters that refused to vote for them, profited heavily from both of them (and many other suspected PED users) and then discarded them like trash.

Rose is more of a personal opinion. I think the punishment doesn't fit the crime. He was banned from participating in MLB, that's justified. Not even being put on the ballot doesn't make sense to me especially nowadays.

A-Rod and Manny knowingly and willingly took PEDs and understood the consequences. Beltran unfortunately became the fall guy for the biggest cheating scandal in the modern era.

Totally agree in regards to Bond and Clemens or for that fact any of the PED guys, MLB knew about it, turned a blind eye, and then when the report came out they just discarded them. That entire era of baseball will really need to be looked at as there is an argument that the use of PEDs in the 90s brought people back to the seats after the strike just about killed the game. (imho)

[tkraft24]

Originally Posted by awz50

I think If CC does not get in we are left with a lot more questions then answers on that one.

Originally Posted by Quake1028

I mean I think almost all of us expect him to get in. I think how many ballots it takes is the question.

Originally Posted by MiamiMarlinsFan

CC is definitely getting into the HOF, the question is first ballot or not.

Agree with all - seems like a few people don't think he belongs at all and certainly not first ballot. I guess I'm not sure why some think there needs to be some ceremonial delay when the current ballot isn't backlogged by any means.

[whitmm]

Ah yes, everytime I've heard anyone talk about all time great pitchers, the first "key stat" mentioned is always IP per start.

Fab continues to live in his own little world.

[Quake1028]

Originally Posted by whitmm

Ah yes, everytime I've heard anyone talk about all time great pitchers, the first "key stat" mentioned is always IP per start.

Fab continues to live in his own little world.

I gave up but it's amusing.

[Quake1028]

Originally Posted by tkraft24

Agree with all - seems like a few people don't think he belongs at all and certainly not first ballot. I guess I'm not sure why some think there needs to be some ceremonial delay when the current ballot isn't backlogged by any means.

Same antiquated thinking that gets us only one unanimous inductee so far.

[Quake1028]

Originally Posted by Mandy1320

Where I draw the line for PED use is pretty simple: Bonds and Clemens never broke any rules established by the MLB nor failed any MLB-sanctioned drug tests. MLB, along with the beat reporters that refused to vote for them, profited heavily from both of them (and many other suspected PED users) and then discarded them like trash.

Rose is more of a personal opinion. I think the punishment doesn't fit the crime. He was banned from participating in MLB, that's justified. Not even being put on the ballot doesn't make sense to me especially nowadays.

A-Rod and Manny knowingly and willingly took PEDs and understood the consequences. Beltran unfortunately became the fall guy for the biggest cheating scandal in the modern era.

Originally Posted by Mightymango

Totally agree in regards to Bond and Clemens or for that fact any of the PED guys, MLB knew about it, turned a blind eye, and then when the report came out they just discarded them. That entire era of baseball will really need to be looked at as there is an argument that the use of PEDs in the 90s brought people back to the after the strike just about killed the game. (imho)

Yup. Bonds, Clemens, Mac, Sosa should all be in. Barry is arguably the greatest player of all-time, for him to not be in the Hall is a travesty.

[MiamiMarlinsFan]

Originally Posted by green4407

Ian Kinsler should get in.

Jeff Kent isn’t in yet. Hard to believe Kinsler would go in before Kent.

[green4407]

[QUOTE=MiamiMarlinsFan;19709121]Jeff Kent isn’t in yet. Hard to believe Kinsler would go in before Kent.

Well yeah, but who in the hell doesn't think Kent should be in? And why isn't he in already? I'm about as anti-Giants as you can get, but I can still see he belongs in the HOF.

[Quake1028]

I would have been interested to see if Kent could have gotten in if the rules were still 15 years for election.

[MiamiMarlinsFan]

Originally Posted by green4407

Well yeah, but who in the hell doesn't think Kent should be in? And why isn't he in already? I'm about as anti-Giants as you can get, but I can still see he belongs in the HOF.

The BWAA.

Personally, I’m indifferent. If Todd Helton can get in, anyone could be a Hall of Famer, I guess.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by tkraft24

It doesn't matter if some weren't inducted via BBWA - they were still eating up votes w/13 players > 20% on that year's ballot. The ballot also featured: Mattingly and Murphy as well as second tier PED offenders in McGwire and Sosa. Plus, as mentioned already, Schilling had a poor reputation with many voters. No one believes he was left out for his resume on the field.

I hated that year because Kenny Lofton got left behind.

https://www.mlb.com/news/mlbcom-scri...ots/c-40873294

Here are 15 Hall of Fame voters who disagree with you plus one who voted for Schilling. Out of the 15, only 3 voted for 10 players. 12 could have voted for Schilling, but didn't. None said anything about not voting for him for his off the field issues. Several said they weren't voting for PED users.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...d-in-this-year

Another one who disagrees with you. Curt Schilling, one of 3 names he thinks could get plenty of support. No mention of off the field issues for Schilling, only for PED users.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...-ballot-player

This writer thinks Schilling had the 3rd best odds of everyone on the ballot. No mention of any off the field issues.

It seems you are the only one who thinks Schilling was left out of the HOF in 2013 because of off the field issues.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by whitmm

Ah yes, everytime I've heard anyone talk about all time great pitchers, the first "key stat" mentioned is always IP per start.

Fab continues to live in his own little world.

Innings pitched plus runs allowed basically tells you how good a pitcher was during their career. One without the other is meaningless -- you need both to assess a pitcher's value.