2025 Baseball Hall of Fame

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by Quake1028

You are 100% cherry picking stats. 300 wins was and still is a big deal.

I don't think you understand how to properly evaluate a pitcher's performance. Wins are a byproduct of not only a pitcher's performance, but also their team's.

Yes, 300 wins has traditionally been a milestone that ensures a pitcher's Hall of Fame induction. But what happens going forward when no future candidate reaches that number? You're going to have to dive into the numbers to assess their performance -- not just rely on outdated metrics.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by MiamiMarlinsFan

The BWAA.

Personally, I’m indifferent. If Todd Helton can get in, anyone could be a Hall of Famer, I guess.

Kent didn't have writers advocating for him. That's the key for a candidate who is borderline. You need writers to carry your water for you. He did not get along with the media during his career, so he never got traction in the voting.

[tkraft24]

Originally Posted by rats60

https://www.mlb.com/news/mlbcom-scri...ots/c-40873294

Here are 15 Hall of Fame voters who disagree with you plus one who voted for Schilling. Out of the 15, only 3 voted for 10 players. 12 could have voted for Schilling, but didn't. None said anything about not voting for him for his off the field issues. Several said they weren't voting for PED users.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...d-in-this-year

Another one who disagrees with you. Curt Schilling, one of 3 names he thinks could get plenty of support. No mention of off the field issues for Schilling, only for PED users.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...-ballot-player

This writer thinks Schilling had the 3rd best odds of everyone on the ballot. No mention of any off the field issues.

It seems you are the only one who thinks Schilling was left out of the HOF in 2013 because of off the field issues.

Raiding the bleacher report archives! The one author says he should be first ballot but might not. He also states it'll be close.

He only got 38.8% of votes.

Schilling had his share of negative press in 2012/2013:
https://www.pcgamer.com/curt-schilli...ever-came-out/

https://www.wpri.com/news/schilling-...apologize-for/

Lets just use some common sense. We both know his numbers are deserving. John Smoltz marched directly into the Hall just 2 years later on a tougher ballot.

[tkraft24]

Here's an interesting article:
https://www.sbnation.com/2013/1/10/3...ame-votes-2013

excerpt:
I don't get the lack of respect for Curt Schilling.

As a Hall of Fame candidate, I mean. As a person, well, sure. He's a true 80 on the "I hope I don't sit next to that guy on an airplane" scale.

[Stifle]

When are some of these players in the HOF ever going to ask why the Owners & Executives do not have a integrity, character, etc clause ? These elitist’s had been voted in to the same HOF but with zero standards of what the players are critiqued by. I would tell the HOF to go kiss their lower 6.

If these elitist’s are getting away with zero accountability in baseball then the odds are high that they are doing the same in other areas. Fraud employees out of $285 million without admitting guilt, spineless.

[49ersSF]

Because I love deeper dives into the question of who should merit consideration for the Hall of Fame. Here is a list of where I see the top starters not in the Hall of Fall currently are ranked.

Top Pitchers with Hall of Fame cases.

Luis Tiant - 3x All-Star, 3x Top 6 Cy Young, 2x Top 8 MVP,

229-172, 3.30 ERA, 2416 K's, 1.199 WHIP, 49 Shutouts, 66.1 WAR, Playoffs: 3-0, 2.86 ERA

Tommy John - 4x All-Star, 4x Top 8 Cy Young Finishes, 26th All-Time in Career Victories, Helped revolutionize Rotator Cuff Surgery(the first to come back from it)

288-231, 3.34 ERA, 2245 K's, 1.283 WHIP, 46 Shut Outs, 61.6 WAR, Playoffs: 6-3, 2.65 ERA

Bret Saberhagen - 3x All-Star, 2x CY Young Winner, 3x Top 3 Cy Young, 2x Top 10 MVP, Gold Glove, 1x World Series Win, World Series MVP, 1x ERA Title

167-117, 3.34 ERA, 1715 K's, 1.141 WHIP, 16 Shutouts, 58.9 WAR, Playoffs: 2-4 4.67 ERA

***only 6 Modern Era Hall of Fame(1930-today) Starting Pitchers have a lower career WHIP than Bret.
*****The only 2 time Cy Young winner that is eligible and not in the HoF

Vida Blue - 6x All-Star, Cy Young, MVP, 5x Top 7 Cy Young, 3x World Series win, 1x ERA Title

209-161, 3.27 ERA, 2175 K's, 1.233 WHIP, 37 Shutouts, 45.1 WAR, Playoffs: 1-5, 4.31 ERA

Ron Guidrey - 4x All-Star, Cy Young, 6x Top 7 Cy Young, 1x Top 2 MVP, 5x Gold Glove, 2x World Series, 2x ERA Title, MLB Player of the Year, Clemente Award Winner,

170-91, 3.29 ERA, 1778 K's, 1.184 WHIP, 26 Shutouts, 47.8 WAR, Playoffs: 5-2, 3.02 ERA

***only 15 Modern Era Hall of Fame(1930-today) Starting Pitchers have a lower career WHIP than Guidrey

Urban Shocker - Pre Awards, 1x World Series Winner

187-117, 3.17 ERA, 983 K's, 1.255 WHIP, 28 Shutouts, 59.0 WAR, Playoffs: 0-1 5.87 ERA

***Died during the 1928 season just after going 18-6 with a 2.84 ERA on the 1927 Yankees which was considered the greatest team in the history of the game.

David Cone - 5x All-Star, Cy Young, 5x Top 6 Cy Young, 2x Top 10 MVP, 5x World Series Winner,

194-126, 3.46 ERA, 2668 K's, 1.256 WHIP, 22 Shutouts, 62.3 WAR, Playoffs: 8-3, 3.80 ERA

Orel Hershiser - 3x All-Star, Cy Young, 4x Top 4 Cy Young, 1x Top 6 MVP, 1x World Series Win, World Series MVP, ALCS MVP, NLCS MVP, MLB Player of the Year, 58 consecutive Shutout innings, One of the most dominant world series performances ever

204-150, 3.48 ERA, 2014 K's, 1.262 WHIP, 25 Shutouts,56.0 WAR, Playoffs: 8-3, 2.59 ERA

CC Sabathia Cy Young, 6x All-Star, 5x Top 5 Cy Young Finishes, ALCS MVP, 1x World Series Wins

251-161, 3.74 ERA, 3093 K's, 1.259 WHIP, 12 Shutouts, 61.8 WAR, Playoffs: 10-7, 4.23 ERA

Mickey Lolich - 3x All-Star, 2x Top 3 Cy Young, 1x Top 5 MVP, 1x World Series win, World Series MVP, One of the most dominant WS ever

217-191, 3.44 ERA, 2832 K's, 1.227 WHIP, 40 Shutouts, 47.9 WAR, Playoffs: 3-1, 1.57 ERA

Mark Buehrle - 5x All-Star, 1x Top 5 Cy Young, 4x Gold Glove, 1x World Series Win

214-160, 3.81 ERA, 1870 K's, 1.281 WHIP, 10 Shutouts, 59.1 WAR, Playoffs: 2-1, 4.11 ERA

Rich Reuschel - 3x All-Star, 3x Top 8 Cy Young, 2x Gold Glove,

214-191, 3.37 ERA, 2015 K's, 1.275 WHIP, 26 Shutouts, 69.5 WAR, Playoffs: 1-4, 5.85 ERA

Kevin Brown - 6x All-Star, 5x Top 6 Cy Young, 2x ERA Leader, 1x World Series Win

211-144, 3.28 ERA, 2397 K's, 1.222 WHIP, 17 Shutouts, 67.8 WAR, Playoffs: 5-5, 4.19 ERA

Larry French - half of career awards did not exist: 1x All-Star

197-171, 3.44 ERA, 1187 K's, 1.331 WHIP, 40 Shutouts, 45.4 WAR, Playoffs: 0-2, 3.00 ERA,

***At age 33 coming off a 15-4 season with 1.83 ERA he enlisted in WW2. He fought in both the European and Pacific theaters and was there during Normandy. He was not able to come back to pitch 3 years of war. I think it's fair to say he had another 4-5 good years left especially after going 15-4 with a 1.83 ERA after learning the knuckleball the year before.

Babe Adams - Pre Awards Players, 2x World Series Wins

194-140, 2.76 ERA, 1036 K's, 1.092 WHIP, 44 Shutouts, 52.6 WAR, Playoffs: 3-0, 1.29 ERA

Allie Reynolds - 5x All-Star, 2x Top 3 MVP, 1x ERA Title, 6x World Series Winner

182-107, 3.30 ERA, 1423 K's, 1.386 WHIP, 36 Shutouts, 25.4 WAR, Playoffs: 7-2, 2.79 ERA

Hippo Vaughn - Pre Awards - Triple Crown, ERA Title

178-137, 2.49 ERA, 1416 K's, 1.201 WHIP, 41 Shutouts, 46.8 WAR, Playoffs: 1-2, 1.00 ERA

**career ended at age 32 with arm injury coming off a 19 win season with a 2.84 ERA.

Felix Hernandez - 6x All-Star, Cy Young, 2x ERA Title, 6x Top 8 Cy Young

169-136, 3.42 ERA, 2524 K's, 1.206 WHIP, 11 Shutouts, 49.7 WAR, No Playoffs

Great Pitchers but more on the fringe....

Frank Tanana - 3x All-Star, 3x Top 9 Cy Young Finishes,

240-236, 3.66 ERA, 2773 K's, 1.270 WHIP, 34 Shutouts, 57.1 WAR, Playoffs: 0-1, 4.35 ERA

Jack Quinn - 2x World Series Wins

247-218, 3.29 ERA, 1329 K's, 1.300 WHIP, 28 Shutouts, 59.8 WAR, Playoffs: 0-1, 8.44 ERA

Tim Hudson - 4x All-Star, 4x Top 6 Cy Young, 1x World Series Win,

223-133, 3.49 ERA, 2080 K's, 1.239 WHIP, 13 Shutouts, 57.9 WAR, Playoffs: 1-4, 3.69 ERA

Jerry Koosman - 2x All-Star, 2x Top 6 Cy Young, 1x World Series Win

222-209, 3.36 ERA, 2556 K's, 1.259 WHIP, 33 Shutouts, 53.6 WAR, Playoffs: 4-0, 3.79 ERA

Wilbur Cooper - (pre awards)

216-178, 2.89 ERA, 1252 K's, 1.226 WHIP, 35 Shutouts, 53.4 WAR, No Playoffs

Bob Welch - 2x All-Star, Cy Young, 3x Top 8 Cy Young, 1x Top 9 MVP, 2x World Series Win

211-146, 3.47 ERA, 1969 K's, 1.270 WHIP, 28 Shutouts, 43.7 WAR, Playoffs: 3-3, 4.56 ERA

Billy Pierce - 7x All-Star, 3x Top 11 MVP, 1x Top 3 Cy Young, 1x ERA Title, 1x World Series Win

211-169, 3.27 ERA, 1999 K's, 1.260 WHIP, 38 Shutouts, 53.3 WAR,Playoffs: 1-1 1.89 ERA

Carl Mays - Pre Awards, 4x World Series Winner

207-126, 2.92 ERA, 862 K's, 1.207 WHIP, 29 Shutouts, 51.3 WAR, Playoffs: 3-4, 2.35 ERA

Jimmy Key - 5x All-Star, 3x Top 4 Cy Young, 1x ERA Title, 1x Top 6 MVP, 2x World Series Winner

186-117, 3.51 ERA, 1528 K's, 1.229 WHIP, 13 Shutouts, 48.9 WAR, Playoffs: 5-3, 3.15 ERA

Mike Cuellar - 4x All-Star, Cy Young, 3x Top 6 Cy Young, 2x World Series Winner, 3x Top 11 MVP, Key member of one of MLB's most dominant staffs ever

185-130, 3.14 ERA, 1632 K's, 1.197 WHIP, 36 Shutouts, 26.9 WAR, Playoffs: 4-4 2.85 ERA

***Nearly all accumulated stats are post age 29

Dave McNally - 3x All-Star, 3x Top 4 Cy Young, 1x Top 5 MVP, 2x World Series Winner

184-119, 3.24 ERA, 1512 K's, 1.214 WHIP, 33 Shutouts, 24.8 WAR, Playoffs: 7-4, 2.49 ERA

Doc Gooden - 4x All-Star, Cy Young, Rookie of the Year, Triple Crown, 5x Top 7 Cy Young, 1x Top 4 MVP, 2x World Series Winner, 1x ERA Title,

194-112, 3.51 ERA, 2293 K's, 1.256 WHIP, 24 Shutouts, 53.0 WAR, Playoffs: 0-4, 3.97 ERA

Dave Stieb - 7x All-Star, 4x Top 7 Cy Young, ERA Title

176-137, 3.44 ERA, 1669 K's, 1.245 WHIP, 30 Shutouts, 56.4 WAR, Playoffs: 1-3, 4.26 ERA

Roy Oswalt - 3x All-Star, 6x Top 6 Cy Young, ERA Title, NLCS MVP

163-102, 3.36 ERA, 1852 K's, 1.211 WHIP, 8 Shutouts, 50.0 WAR, Playoffs: 5-2, 3.73 ERA

Fernando Valenzuela - 6x All-Star, Cy Young, Rookie of the Year, 4x Top 5 Cy Young, 1x Top 5 MVP, Gold Glove, MLB Player of the Year, 1x World Series Winner

173-153, 3.53 ERA, 2074 K's, 1.321 WHIP, 31 Shutouts, 41.5 WAR, Playoffs: 5-1, 1.98 ERA

The best of the rest....

Bartolo Colon - Cy Young, 4x All-Star, 4x Top 6 CY Finishes

247-188, 4.12 ERA, 2535 K's, 1.312 WHIP, 13 Shutouts, 46.2 WAR, Playoffs: 3-5 3.49 ERA

Dennis Martinez - 4x All-Star, 2x Top 5 Cy Young, 1x World Series Win

245-193, 3.70 ERA, 2149 K's, 1.266 WHIP, 30 Shutouts, 48.7 WAR, Playoffs: 2-2, 3.32 ERA

David Wells - 3x All-Star, 2x Top 3 Cy Young Finishes, ALCS MVP

239-157, 4.13 ERA, 2201 K's, 1.266 WHIP, 12 Shutouts, 53.5 WAR, Playoffs: 10-5, 3.17 ERA

Paul Derringer - 6x All-Star, 3x Top 8 MVP, 2x World Series Wins

223-212, 3.46 ERA, 1507 K's, 1.282 WHIP, 32 Shutouts, 36.0 WAR, Playoffs: 2-4, 3.42 ERA

Jim Perry - 3x All-Star, Cy Young, 2x Top 3 Cy Young, 2x Top 9 MVP,

215-174, 3.45 ERA, 1576 K's, 1.255 WHIP, 32 Shutouts, 41.6 WAR, Playoffs: 0-1, 6.75 ERA

Chuck Finley - 5x All-Star, 1x Top 7 Cy Young

200-173, 3.85 ERA, 2610 K's, 1.376 WHIP, 15 Shutouts, 57.9 WAR, Playoffs: 1-2, 4.50 ERA

Larry Jackson - 5x All-Star, 1x Top 2 Cy Young

194-183, 3.40 ERA, 1709 K's, 1.235 WHIP, 37 Shutouts, 52.0 WAR, No Playoffs

Lon Warneke - 5x All-Star, 3x Top 13 MVP,

192-121, 3.18 ERA, 1140 K's, 1.245 WHIP, 30 Shutouts, 45.8 WAR, Playoffs: 2-1, 2.63 ERA

Frank Viola - 3x All Star, Cy Young, 4x Top 6 Cy Young, 1x World Series, World Series MVP

176-150, 3.73 ERA, 1844 K's, 1.301 WHIP, 16 Shutouts, 47.0 WAR, Playoffs: 3-1, 4.31 ERA

Wilbur Wood - 3x All-Star, 2x Top 3 Cy Young, 2x Top 10 MVP

164-156, 3.24 ERA, 1411 K's, 1.232 WHIP, 24 Shutouts, 50.0 WAR, No Playoffs

[Quake1028]

I don't see IP per start so your list is already invalid, and I don't think you understand how to evaluate pitchers.

[smapdi]

Oh great. Time for another round of "that guy couldn't possibly be retired for 5 years already." I would have bet ten grand that Adam Jones was playing for the O's last year. Tulo? He's just been on the IL. Hanley? I just saw him play for the Sox when we got to Fenway just a couple years ago in 2016.

[Skipscards]

Originally Posted by Quake1028

The early tracker always skews positive. No way we get 6.

Also, I know he came on during more crowded ballots, but Mike Mussina might be interesting to look at to gauge CC.

It was a joke. There was only one voter result.

[jduds]

Originally Posted by rats60

https://www.mlb.com/news/mlbcom-scri...ots/c-40873294

Here are 15 Hall of Fame voters who disagree with you plus one who voted for Schilling. Out of the 15, only 3 voted for 10 players. 12 could have voted for Schilling, but didn't. None said anything about not voting for him for his off the field issues. Several said they weren't voting for PED users.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...d-in-this-year

Another one who disagrees with you. Curt Schilling, one of 3 names he thinks could get plenty of support. No mention of off the field issues for Schilling, only for PED users.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...-ballot-player

This writer thinks Schilling had the 3rd best odds of everyone on the ballot. No mention of any off the field issues.

It seems you are the only one who thinks Schilling was left out of the HOF in 2013 because of off the field issues.

There was discussion of Schilling's personality/antics hurting his case in 2013. Check out number three below. It's been part of the narrative with him since the beginning but it certainly ballooned in proportion to later Schilling statements. It is true the wins total is the bigger culprit in 2013 though.

"I wasn’t surprised Curt Schilling debuted with a relatively low percentage (38.8%) compared to his career accomplishments. Schilling has several things working against his favor: 1) the “sniff test”, 2) his career win total (216), and 3) his reputation as a blowhard and total self promoting douche. None of those things are valid reasons to keep Schilling out of the Hall of Fame. The writers might vote him in at some point, but he has a long road ahead of him, especially when you consider the ballot has never been this stacked. Schilling is looking at the Blyleven path to the Hall.

https://www.replacementlevelpodcast....oting-results/

[JRX]

Originally Posted by jduds

There was discussion of Schilling's personality/antics hurting his case in 2013. Check out number three below. It's been part of the narrative with him since the beginning but it certainly ballooned in proportion to later Schilling statements. It is true the wins total is the bigger culprit in 2013 though.

"I wasn’t surprised Curt Schilling debuted with a relatively low percentage (38.8%) compared to his career accomplishments. Schilling has several things working against his favor: 1) the “sniff test”, 2) his career win total (216), and 3) his reputation as a blowhard and total self promoting douche. None of those things are valid reasons to keep Schilling out of the Hall of Fame. The writers might vote him in at some point, but he has a long road ahead of him, especially when you consider the ballot has never been this stacked. Schilling is looking at the Blyleven path to the Hall.

https://www.replacementlevelpodcast....oting-results/

I hated Schilling, but the guy is a hall of famer. Any deficiency in his wins total is more than made up by his post season record which will be used as justification for putting Bumgarner in.

[awz50]

Originally Posted by 49ersSF

Because I love deeper dives into the question of who should merit consideration for the Hall of Fame. Here is a list of where I see the top starters not in the Hall of Fall currently are ranked.

Top Pitchers with Hall of Fame cases.

Luis Tiant - 3x All-Star, 3x Top 6 Cy Young, 2x Top 8 MVP,

229-172, 3.30 ERA, 2416 K's, 1.199 WHIP, 49 Shutouts, 66.1 WAR, Playoffs: 3-0, 2.86 ERA

Tommy John - 4x All-Star, 4x Top 8 Cy Young Finishes, 26th All-Time in Career Victories, Helped revolutionize Rotator Cuff Surgery(the first to come back from it)

288-231, 3.34 ERA, 2245 K's, 1.283 WHIP, 46 Shut Outs, 61.6 WAR, Playoffs: 6-3, 2.65 ERA

Bret Saberhagen - 3x All-Star, 2x CY Young Winner, 3x Top 3 Cy Young, 2x Top 10 MVP, Gold Glove, 1x World Series Win, World Series MVP, 1x ERA Title

167-117, 3.34 ERA, 1715 K's, 1.141 WHIP, 16 Shutouts, 58.9 WAR, Playoffs: 2-4 4.67 ERA

***only 6 Modern Era Hall of Fame(1930-today) Starting Pitchers have a lower career WHIP than Bret.
*****The only 2 time Cy Young winner that is eligible and not in the HoF

Vida Blue - 6x All-Star, Cy Young, MVP, 5x Top 7 Cy Young, 3x World Series win, 1x ERA Title

209-161, 3.27 ERA, 2175 K's, 1.233 WHIP, 37 Shutouts, 45.1 WAR, Playoffs: 1-5, 4.31 ERA

Ron Guidrey - 4x All-Star, Cy Young, 6x Top 7 Cy Young, 1x Top 2 MVP, 5x Gold Glove, 2x World Series, 2x ERA Title, MLB Player of the Year, Clemente Award Winner,

170-91, 3.29 ERA, 1778 K's, 1.184 WHIP, 26 Shutouts, 47.8 WAR, Playoffs: 5-2, 3.02 ERA

***only 15 Modern Era Hall of Fame(1930-today) Starting Pitchers have a lower career WHIP than Guidrey

Urban Shocker - Pre Awards, 1x World Series Winner

187-117, 3.17 ERA, 983 K's, 1.255 WHIP, 28 Shutouts, 59.0 WAR, Playoffs: 0-1 5.87 ERA

***Died during the 1928 season just after going 18-6 with a 2.84 ERA on the 1927 Yankees which was considered the greatest team in the history of the game.

David Cone - 5x All-Star, Cy Young, 5x Top 6 Cy Young, 2x Top 10 MVP, 5x World Series Winner,

194-126, 3.46 ERA, 2668 K's, 1.256 WHIP, 22 Shutouts, 62.3 WAR, Playoffs: 8-3, 3.80 ERA

Orel Hershiser - 3x All-Star, Cy Young, 4x Top 4 Cy Young, 1x Top 6 MVP, 1x World Series Win, World Series MVP, ALCS MVP, NLCS MVP, MLB Player of the Year, 58 consecutive Shutout innings, One of the most dominant world series performances ever

204-150, 3.48 ERA, 2014 K's, 1.262 WHIP, 25 Shutouts,56.0 WAR, Playoffs: 8-3, 2.59 ERA

CC Sabathia Cy Young, 6x All-Star, 5x Top 5 Cy Young Finishes, ALCS MVP, 1x World Series Wins

251-161, 3.74 ERA, 3093 K's, 1.259 WHIP, 12 Shutouts, 61.8 WAR, Playoffs: 10-7, 4.23 ERA

Mickey Lolich - 3x All-Star, 2x Top 3 Cy Young, 1x Top 5 MVP, 1x World Series win, World Series MVP, One of the most dominant WS ever

217-191, 3.44 ERA, 2832 K's, 1.227 WHIP, 40 Shutouts, 47.9 WAR, Playoffs: 3-1, 1.57 ERA

Mark Buehrle - 5x All-Star, 1x Top 5 Cy Young, 4x Gold Glove, 1x World Series Win

214-160, 3.81 ERA, 1870 K's, 1.281 WHIP, 10 Shutouts, 59.1 WAR, Playoffs: 2-1, 4.11 ERA

Rich Reuschel - 3x All-Star, 3x Top 8 Cy Young, 2x Gold Glove,

214-191, 3.37 ERA, 2015 K's, 1.275 WHIP, 26 Shutouts, 69.5 WAR, Playoffs: 1-4, 5.85 ERA

Kevin Brown - 6x All-Star, 5x Top 6 Cy Young, 2x ERA Leader, 1x World Series Win

211-144, 3.28 ERA, 2397 K's, 1.222 WHIP, 17 Shutouts, 67.8 WAR, Playoffs: 5-5, 4.19 ERA

Larry French - half of career awards did not exist: 1x All-Star

197-171, 3.44 ERA, 1187 K's, 1.331 WHIP, 40 Shutouts, 45.4 WAR, Playoffs: 0-2, 3.00 ERA,

***At age 33 coming off a 15-4 season with 1.83 ERA he enlisted in WW2. He fought in both the European and Pacific theaters and was there during Normandy. He was not able to come back to pitch 3 years of war. I think it's fair to say he had another 4-5 good years left especially after going 15-4 with a 1.83 ERA after learning the knuckleball the year before.

Babe Adams - Pre Awards Players, 2x World Series Wins

194-140, 2.76 ERA, 1036 K's, 1.092 WHIP, 44 Shutouts, 52.6 WAR, Playoffs: 3-0, 1.29 ERA

Allie Reynolds - 5x All-Star, 2x Top 3 MVP, 1x ERA Title, 6x World Series Winner

182-107, 3.30 ERA, 1423 K's, 1.386 WHIP, 36 Shutouts, 25.4 WAR, Playoffs: 7-2, 2.79 ERA

Hippo Vaughn - Pre Awards - Triple Crown, ERA Title

178-137, 2.49 ERA, 1416 K's, 1.201 WHIP, 41 Shutouts, 46.8 WAR, Playoffs: 1-2, 1.00 ERA

**career ended at age 32 with arm injury coming off a 19 win season with a 2.84 ERA.

Felix Hernandez - 6x All-Star, Cy Young, 2x ERA Title, 6x Top 8 Cy Young

169-136, 3.42 ERA, 2524 K's, 1.206 WHIP, 11 Shutouts, 49.7 WAR, No Playoffs

Great Pitchers but more on the fringe....

Frank Tanana - 3x All-Star, 3x Top 9 Cy Young Finishes,

240-236, 3.66 ERA, 2773 K's, 1.270 WHIP, 34 Shutouts, 57.1 WAR, Playoffs: 0-1, 4.35 ERA

Jack Quinn - 2x World Series Wins

247-218, 3.29 ERA, 1329 K's, 1.300 WHIP, 28 Shutouts, 59.8 WAR, Playoffs: 0-1, 8.44 ERA

Tim Hudson - 4x All-Star, 4x Top 6 Cy Young, 1x World Series Win,

223-133, 3.49 ERA, 2080 K's, 1.239 WHIP, 13 Shutouts, 57.9 WAR, Playoffs: 1-4, 3.69 ERA

Jerry Koosman - 2x All-Star, 2x Top 6 Cy Young, 1x World Series Win

222-209, 3.36 ERA, 2556 K's, 1.259 WHIP, 33 Shutouts, 53.6 WAR, Playoffs: 4-0, 3.79 ERA

Wilbur Cooper - (pre awards)

216-178, 2.89 ERA, 1252 K's, 1.226 WHIP, 35 Shutouts, 53.4 WAR, No Playoffs

Bob Welch - 2x All-Star, Cy Young, 3x Top 8 Cy Young, 1x Top 9 MVP, 2x World Series Win

211-146, 3.47 ERA, 1969 K's, 1.270 WHIP, 28 Shutouts, 43.7 WAR, Playoffs: 3-3, 4.56 ERA

Billy Pierce - 7x All-Star, 3x Top 11 MVP, 1x Top 3 Cy Young, 1x ERA Title, 1x World Series Win

211-169, 3.27 ERA, 1999 K's, 1.260 WHIP, 38 Shutouts, 53.3 WAR,Playoffs: 1-1 1.89 ERA

Carl Mays - Pre Awards, 4x World Series Winner

207-126, 2.92 ERA, 862 K's, 1.207 WHIP, 29 Shutouts, 51.3 WAR, Playoffs: 3-4, 2.35 ERA

Jimmy Key - 5x All-Star, 3x Top 4 Cy Young, 1x ERA Title, 1x Top 6 MVP, 2x World Series Winner

186-117, 3.51 ERA, 1528 K's, 1.229 WHIP, 13 Shutouts, 48.9 WAR, Playoffs: 5-3, 3.15 ERA

Mike Cuellar - 4x All-Star, Cy Young, 3x Top 6 Cy Young, 2x World Series Winner, 3x Top 11 MVP, Key member of one of MLB's most dominant staffs ever

185-130, 3.14 ERA, 1632 K's, 1.197 WHIP, 36 Shutouts, 26.9 WAR, Playoffs: 4-4 2.85 ERA

***Nearly all accumulated stats are post age 29

Dave McNally - 3x All-Star, 3x Top 4 Cy Young, 1x Top 5 MVP, 2x World Series Winner

184-119, 3.24 ERA, 1512 K's, 1.214 WHIP, 33 Shutouts, 24.8 WAR, Playoffs: 7-4, 2.49 ERA

Doc Gooden - 4x All-Star, Cy Young, Rookie of the Year, Triple Crown, 5x Top 7 Cy Young, 1x Top 4 MVP, 2x World Series Winner, 1x ERA Title,

194-112, 3.51 ERA, 2293 K's, 1.256 WHIP, 24 Shutouts, 53.0 WAR, Playoffs: 0-4, 3.97 ERA

Dave Stieb - 7x All-Star, 4x Top 7 Cy Young, ERA Title

176-137, 3.44 ERA, 1669 K's, 1.245 WHIP, 30 Shutouts, 56.4 WAR, Playoffs: 1-3, 4.26 ERA

Roy Oswalt - 3x All-Star, 6x Top 6 Cy Young, ERA Title, NLCS MVP

163-102, 3.36 ERA, 1852 K's, 1.211 WHIP, 8 Shutouts, 50.0 WAR, Playoffs: 5-2, 3.73 ERA

Fernando Valenzuela - 6x All-Star, Cy Young, Rookie of the Year, 4x Top 5 Cy Young, 1x Top 5 MVP, Gold Glove, MLB Player of the Year, 1x World Series Winner

173-153, 3.53 ERA, 2074 K's, 1.321 WHIP, 31 Shutouts, 41.5 WAR, Playoffs: 5-1, 1.98 ERA

The best of the rest....

Bartolo Colon - Cy Young, 4x All-Star, 4x Top 6 CY Finishes

247-188, 4.12 ERA, 2535 K's, 1.312 WHIP, 13 Shutouts, 46.2 WAR, Playoffs: 3-5 3.49 ERA

Dennis Martinez - 4x All-Star, 2x Top 5 Cy Young, 1x World Series Win

245-193, 3.70 ERA, 2149 K's, 1.266 WHIP, 30 Shutouts, 48.7 WAR, Playoffs: 2-2, 3.32 ERA

David Wells - 3x All-Star, 2x Top 3 Cy Young Finishes, ALCS MVP

239-157, 4.13 ERA, 2201 K's, 1.266 WHIP, 12 Shutouts, 53.5 WAR, Playoffs: 10-5, 3.17 ERA

Paul Derringer - 6x All-Star, 3x Top 8 MVP, 2x World Series Wins

223-212, 3.46 ERA, 1507 K's, 1.282 WHIP, 32 Shutouts, 36.0 WAR, Playoffs: 2-4, 3.42 ERA

Jim Perry - 3x All-Star, Cy Young, 2x Top 3 Cy Young, 2x Top 9 MVP,

215-174, 3.45 ERA, 1576 K's, 1.255 WHIP, 32 Shutouts, 41.6 WAR, Playoffs: 0-1, 6.75 ERA

Chuck Finley - 5x All-Star, 1x Top 7 Cy Young

200-173, 3.85 ERA, 2610 K's, 1.376 WHIP, 15 Shutouts, 57.9 WAR, Playoffs: 1-2, 4.50 ERA

Larry Jackson - 5x All-Star, 1x Top 2 Cy Young

194-183, 3.40 ERA, 1709 K's, 1.235 WHIP, 37 Shutouts, 52.0 WAR, No Playoffs

Lon Warneke - 5x All-Star, 3x Top 13 MVP,

192-121, 3.18 ERA, 1140 K's, 1.245 WHIP, 30 Shutouts, 45.8 WAR, Playoffs: 2-1, 2.63 ERA

Frank Viola - 3x All Star, Cy Young, 4x Top 6 Cy Young, 1x World Series, World Series MVP

176-150, 3.73 ERA, 1844 K's, 1.301 WHIP, 16 Shutouts, 47.0 WAR, Playoffs: 3-1, 4.31 ERA

Wilbur Wood - 3x All-Star, 2x Top 3 Cy Young, 2x Top 10 MVP

164-156, 3.24 ERA, 1411 K's, 1.232 WHIP, 24 Shutouts, 50.0 WAR, No Playoffs

Thanks for this, super interesting

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

Innings pitched plus runs allowed basically tells you how good a pitcher was during their career. One without the other is meaningless -- you need both to assess a pitcher's value.

Innings pitched and runs allowed are not innings pitched per start.

What you just said has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.

Innings pitched per start has never been a key stat and never will be.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by jduds

There was discussion of Schilling's personality/antics hurting his case in 2013. Check out number three below. It's been part of the narrative with him since the beginning but it certainly ballooned in proportion to later Schilling statements. It is true the wins total is the bigger culprit in 2013 though.

"I wasn’t surprised Curt Schilling debuted with a relatively low percentage (38.8%) compared to his career accomplishments. Schilling has several things working against his favor: 1) the “sniff test”, 2) his career win total (216), and 3) his reputation as a blowhard and total self promoting douche. None of those things are valid reasons to keep Schilling out of the Hall of Fame. The writers might vote him in at some point, but he has a long road ahead of him, especially when you consider the ballot has never been this stacked. Schilling is looking at the Blyleven path to the Hall.

https://www.replacementlevelpodcast....oting-results/

He was being overshadowed and compared to his peers like Greg Maddux, Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez. Once those guys were inducted and cleared the ballot, he had a chance to get fair consideration from voters -- many of whom were younger with an analytical bent -- which is why Mike Mussina finally got voted in. But at that point, he had already been making controversial comments and social media posts.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by whitmm

Innings pitched and runs allowed are not innings pitched per start.

What you just said has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.

Innings pitched per start has never been a key stat and never will be.

IP/GS is just a closer look at a pitcher's work load. You can look at total career innings, but you can also at it from a per-game or per-season basis. Just like ERA or RA/9.

[ObanMontecristo]

Schilling’s career numbers and arc are almost identical to Smoltz’s, except Smoltz had 1-2 more years as a closer and therefore more saves. Yet Smoltz was a first-ballot HOFer and Schilling never got in. It’s definitely off-the-field considerations.

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

IP/GS is just a closer look at a pitcher's work load. You can look at total career innings, but you can also at it from a per-game or per-season basis. Just like ERA or RA/9.

I know what it is.

It's never been a key stat. Ever.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by ObanMontecristo

Schilling’s career numbers and arc are almost identical to Smoltz’s, except Smoltz had 1-2 more years as a closer and therefore more saves. Yet Smoltz was a first-ballot HOFer and Schilling never got in. It’s definitely off-the-field considerations.

Smoltz probably got special consideration for having Tommy John surgery and being forced to move into short relief.

[jhssketchcards]

Crazy that Felix won’t get (like another said he had poor run support) yet Ichiro will get in, likely unanimous, and he was the main guy on Seattle’s team when Felix was at his peak.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by ObanMontecristo

Schilling’s career numbers and arc are almost identical to Smoltz’s, except Smoltz had 1-2 more years as a closer and therefore more saves. Yet Smoltz was a first-ballot HOFer and Schilling never got in. It’s definitely off-the-field considerations.

There's a huge difference in terms of what they did when they switched to a reliever. Smoltz became one of the best closers in the game in the middle of his career. Schilling was a reliever for a couple years at the start of his career and one year at the end, never reaching double digits saves in a season. Smoltz won the Rolaids Relief award. He received MVP votes in 3 of the 4 years he was Atlanta's closer and a 2 time all star. He set the single season save record.

So yeah, career stats may be similar from the starting side, but they are worlds apart from the reliever side of things, and their career arcs are not alike.

Is it not common knowledge that the only reason Schilling isn't in is because of the off the field and post playing career stuff?

[no10pin]

Originally Posted by 49ersSF

Because I love deeper dives into the question of who should merit consideration for the Hall of Fame. Here is a list of where I see the top starters not in the Hall of Fall currently are ranked.

This is a great list, and I would love to see Saberhagen in particular get more attention someday, but I think you are missing one big name.

Johan Santana had 2 Cy Youngs as well along with 3 other Top 5 finishes. Led the league in ERA 3 times and WHIP 4 years in a row.

[awz50]

Allie Reynolds, Eddie lopat and Vic Raschi were truly amazing big three for the Yankees, unsung heroes of that 40-50s Yankees dynasty. Coming into start and in relief.

[awz50]

Also Larry French is a great name that you had on that list.

[Quake1028]

Originally Posted by jhssketchcards

Crazy that Felix won’t get (like another said he had poor run support) yet Ichiro will get in, likely unanimous, and he was the main guy on Seattle’s team when Felix was at his peak.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I mean there's also that part where Ichiro has the most hits in the history of organized baseball.

[Quake1028]

Originally Posted by whitmm

There's a huge difference in terms of what they did when they switched to a reliever. Smoltz became one of the best closers in the game in the middle of his career. Schilling was a reliever for a couple years at the start of his career and one year at the end, never reaching double digits saves in a season. Smoltz won the Rolaids Relief award. He received MVP votes in 3 of the 4 years he was Atlanta's closer and a 2 time all star. He set the single season save record.

So yeah, career stats may be similar from the starting side, but they are worlds apart from the reliever side of things, and their career arcs are not alike.

I watch a lot of baseball and troll BR all the damn time, and I even forgot Schilling was a reliever. No one forgets Smoltz going from elite starter to elite closer though.

Originally Posted by whitmm

Is it not common knowledge that the only reason Schilling isn't in is because of the off the field and post playing career stuff?

I thought it was, but apparently some in this thread are trying to argue it's not.