2025 Baseball Hall of Fame

[fabiani12333]

What killed Schilling's chances of getting voted in were two different events:

1st incident: In his fourth year on the ballot in January 2016, he received 52% of the vote and was well on his way to getting voted in. But in November of that year he tweeted a photo of a guy wearing a shirt joking about lynching journalists. Many writers took this personally and thought he had crossed a line. His vote total the following year fell back down to 45%.

2nd incident: To the voters credit, Schilling's vote percentage gradually rose after 2017 and reached 71% of the vote on his 9th and second-to-last year on the ballot in January 2021. He would have surely been voted in on his tenth and final year on the ballot, but he once again stepped in it big time. In January 2021, he tweeted support for the Jan 9 incident. This was during a very politically-charged atmosphere -- with many celebrities getting "cancelled" on social media -- and many voters considered his newest comments again crossing the line. So his vote total dropped back to 58.6% the following year on his final year on the ballot, in part because he publicly told the Hall of Fame to remove him from the ballot -- but mainly for his controversial comments.

[jhssketchcards]

Maybe Schilling isn’t in the HOF because at one time he played for the Astros.

Seriously though, Schilling should be in the HOF ahead of someone like Sabathia.
Sabathia has the CY and more wins, but Schilling won 3 rings with AZ and Boston… when you compare postseason legacies Schilling has one and Sabathia does not: Schilling is 11-2 with 2.23 ERA vs CC’s 10-7 and 4.46 ERA.

Schilling has more shutouts, more Ks and a lower ERA. WL% CC has a slight edge but Schilling’s WAR is almost 17 pts higher than CC and has considerably less walks (under 800 to 1,099). Schilling had excellent control for a strikeout guy, only hitting 52 batters vs CC beaning 123. There SO/BB aren’t close. To keep Schilling out for his opinions is ridiculous.

Writers like Sabathia over Schilling, but it’s clear who a manager would want on the mound in a critical playoff game. They’d choose Schilling everytime


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[whitmm]

Originally Posted by Quake1028

I watch a lot of baseball and troll BR all the damn time, and I even forgot Schilling was a reliever. No one forgets Smoltz going from elite starter to elite closer though.



I thought it was, but apparently some in this thread are trying to argue it's not.

I had no idea Schilling ever was one until that post, and my first thought was "how in the hell did I forget the Schilling was an elite closer?" Turns out I didn't forget anything.

It seems like people forget the reasons why pitchers aren't in more often than the hitters. Pettitte gets brought up all the time and even when it's said why he's not in they just ignore it.

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by jhssketchcards

Maybe Schilling isn’t in the HOF because at one time he played for the Astros.

Seriously though, Schilling should be in the HOF ahead of someone like Sabathia.
Sabathia has the CY and more wins, but Schilling won 3 rings with AZ and Boston… when you compare postseason legacies Schilling has one and Sabathia does not: Schilling is 11-2 with 2.23 ERA vs CC’s 10-7 and 4.46 ERA.

Schilling has more shutouts, more Ks and a lower ERA. WL% CC has a slight edge but Schilling’s WAR is almost 17 pts higher than CC and has considerably less walks (under 800 to 1,099). Schilling had excellent control for a strikeout guy, only hitting 52 batters vs CC beaning 123. There SO/BB aren’t close. To keep Schilling out for his opinions is ridiculous.

Writers like Sabathia over Schilling, but it’s clear who a manager would want on the mound in a critical playoff game. They’d choose Schilling everytime


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Like I said, I thought it was pretty common knowledge as to why Schilling isn't in.

I would love to see how some of the guys years ago would do in today's age. Like a Ty Cobb, who fought with reporters, was suspended for attacking a fan, and was investigated for fixing games. There's plenty of guys in that had questionable morals.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by jhssketchcards

Maybe Schilling isn’t in the HOF because at one time he played for the Astros.

Seriously though, Schilling should be in the HOF ahead of someone like Sabathia.
Sabathia has the CY and more wins, but Schilling won 3 rings with AZ and Boston… when you compare postseason legacies Schilling has one and Sabathia does not: Schilling is 11-2 with 2.23 ERA vs CC’s 10-7 and 4.46 ERA.

Schilling has more shutouts, more Ks and a lower ERA. WL% CC has a slight edge but Schilling’s WAR is almost 17 pts higher than CC and has considerably less walks (under 800 to 1,099). Schilling had excellent control for a strikeout guy, only hitting 52 batters vs CC beaning 123. There SO/BB aren’t close. To keep Schilling out for his opinions is ridiculous.

Writers like Sabathia over Schilling, but it’s clear who a manager would want on the mound in a critical playoff game. They’d choose Schilling everytime


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I don't think anyone is disputing that Schilling is Hall worthy. The only thing keeping him out is his post-career controversies, which probably shouldn't be relevant to his candidacy. It's not like he committed heinous crimes or anything.

There's no reason to compare him to Sabathia, who is clearly the much safer choice from a PR perspective. Because if Mike Mussina is in, then Schilling should absolutely be in -- full stop. There is no baseball argument that can be made otherwise. Not unless you want to compare career win totals, which is silly.

[49ersSF]

Originally Posted by no10pin

This is a great list, and I would love to see Saberhagen in particular get more attention someday, but I think you are missing one big name.

Johan Santana had 2 Cy Youngs as well along with 3 other Top 5 finishes. Led the league in ERA 3 times and WHIP 4 years in a row.

I missed Johan. He's a guy who was on track for the Hall of Fame but due to some major injuries his career was over at 31. He definitely deserves to be on the Hall of Fame cases list.

Johan Santana - 4x All-Star, 2x Cy Young, 6x Top 7 Cy Young, 2x Top 7 MVP, Triple Crown, Gold Glove, 3x ERA Title

139-78, 3.20 ERA, 1988 K's, 1.132 WHIP, 10 Shutouts, 51.7 WAR, Playoffs: 1-3, 3.97 ERA

***career shortened due to injuries at age 31.

[fabiani12333]

Here's a good quote from a 2016 Jerry Crasnick article on Schilling's Hall of Fame candidacy:

During Schilling's 20-year playing career, it was hard to imagine him having trouble passing muster on the "character'' clause. Schilling won the Roberto Clemente Award, Branch Rickey Award, Hutch Award, Sporting News Good Guy of the Year award, Lou Gehrig Award, Babe Ruth Award, Worth Magazine's Young Benefactor of the Year award and the designation of "Most Caring Athlete'' from USA Today. He was also a tireless advocate for veterans' causes and a champion in the fight against amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, or Lou Gehrig's Disease. In describing Schilling's work ethic, Pedro Martinez once called him "the most prepared pitcher I ever played with."

Yet the media's perception of Schilling has changed drastically since his playing career ended.

"I have voted for Schilling and will continue to vote for him, no matter how many dumb or offensive things he says,'' said Ken Rosenthal of Fox Sports. "I will add this, though: I've known him since he debuted with the Orioles in 1988 and always have had a good relationship with him -- better than most writers, I guess. Some of his comments have been extremely disappointing to me. I would like to shake him and ask, 'What the hell are you thinking?'"

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/...ll-fame-voters

Most caring athlete? Holy crap.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by whitmm

Is it not common knowledge that the only reason Schilling isn't in is because of the off the field and post playing career stuff?

No, because this is not true.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/hof12/story...nhancing-drugs

Schilling won 216 games and had a .597 winning percentage. He also had three 20-win seasons, three 300-strikeout seasons and won World Series rings with the Arizona Diamondbacks and Boston Red Sox. His numbers are borderline for Cooperstown, but his staggering numbers in the postseason -- his WHIP is under 1.00 --might be enough to get him in, although maybe not on the first ballot.

Schilling was always a borderline candidate. If he had 300 wins, multiple Cy Youngs or other things that made him a strong candidate, his extreme political views wouldn't have kept him out of the HOF. There are plently of HOFs with off the field problems.

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

What killed Schilling's chances of getting voted in were two different events:

1st incident: In his fourth year on the ballot in January 2016, he received 52% of the vote and was well on his way to getting voted in. But in November of that year he tweeted a photo of a guy wearing a shirt joking about lynching journalists. Many writers took this personally and thought he had crossed a line. His vote total the following year fell back down to 45%.

2nd incident: To the voters credit, Schilling's vote percentage gradually rose after 2017 and reached 71% of the vote on his 9th and second-to-last year on the ballot in January 2021. He would have surely been voted in on his tenth and final year on the ballot, but he once again stepped in it big time. In January 2021, he tweeted support for the Jan 9 incident. This was during a very politically-charged atmosphere -- with many celebrities getting "cancelled" on social media -- and many voters considered his newest comments again crossing the line. So his vote total dropped back to 58.6% the following year on his final year on the ballot, in part because he publicly told the Hall of Fame to remove him from the ballot -- but mainly for his controversial comments.

This here is exactly what I am reffering too. Schilling was always a guy who would have to build support over time. His mouth kept stopping his momentum for election to the HOF. CC Sabathia has an even weaker case than Schilling for HOF. I see it taking time for him to get enough support for 75% based on the historical voting patterns of the BBWAA.

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by rats60

No, because this is not true.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/hof12/story...nhancing-drugs

Schilling won 216 games and had a .597 winning percentage. He also had three 20-win seasons, three 300-strikeout seasons and won World Series rings with the Arizona Diamondbacks and Boston Red Sox. His numbers are borderline for Cooperstown, but his staggering numbers in the postseason -- his WHIP is under 1.00 --might be enough to get him in, although maybe not on the first ballot.

Schilling was always a borderline candidate. If he had 300 wins, multiple Cy Youngs or other things that made him a strong candidate, his extreme political views wouldn't have kept him out of the HOF. There are plently of HOFs with off the field problems.



This here is exactly what I am reffering too. Schilling was always a guy who would have to build support over time. His mouth kept stopping his momentum for election to the HOF. CC Sabathia has an even weaker case than Schilling for HOF. I see it taking time for him to get enough support for 75% based on the historical voting patterns of the BBWAA.

Literally everything you wrote backs up the idea that his off the field stuff kept him out.

He was building the support. Up to 71% on his 9th time on the ballot. It was leading to him making it on his last ballot. Then he opened his mouth. Here are Schilliing's percentage of votes by year: 38.8, 29.2, 39.2, 52.3, 45.0 (Fab's 1st listed incident), 51.2, 60.9, 70.0, 71.1, 58.6. While Fab's 2nd comment may have influenced the last vote, I'd argue that Schilling personally asking to be removed from the 2022 ballot played a bigger role in the drop.

Schilling had conflicts with players and management throughout his playing career. He had multiple conflicts with the media. Interesting side note, the three other players that spent the same 10 years with Schilling on the ballot with Barry Bonds, Sammy Sosa, and Roger Clemens.

[jmarascojr]

Originally Posted by whitmm

Like I said, I thought it was pretty common knowledge as to why Schilling isn't in.

I would love to see how some of the guys years ago would do in today's age. Like a Ty Cobb, who fought with reporters, was suspended for attacking a fan, and was investigated for fixing games. There's plenty of guys in that had questionable morals.

Babe Ruth and Mickey Mantle would not have survived in a world with camera phones and TMZ...

[Handsome Wes]

Originally Posted by jmarascojr

Babe Ruth and Mickey Mantle would not have survived in a world with camera phones and TMZ...

Video of Tris Speaker at a Klan rally would definitely make its way onto Sportscenter

(if ESPN still did baseball stories)

[Rbradleigh]

Originally Posted by rats60

No, because this is not true.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/hof12/story...nhancing-drugs

Schilling won 216 games and had a .597 winning percentage. He also had three 20-win seasons, three 300-strikeout seasons and won World Series rings with the Arizona Diamondbacks and Boston Red Sox. His numbers are borderline for Cooperstown, but his staggering numbers in the postseason -- his WHIP is under 1.00 --might be enough to get him in, although maybe not on the first ballot.

Schilling was always a borderline candidate. If he had 300 wins, multiple Cy Youngs or other things that made him a strong candidate, his extreme political views wouldn't have kept him out of the HOF. There are plently of HOFs with off the field problems.



This here is exactly what I am reffering too. Schilling was always a guy who would have to build support over time. His mouth kept stopping his momentum for election to the HOF. CC Sabathia has an even weaker case than Schilling for HOF. I see it taking time for him to get enough support for 75% based on the historical voting patterns of the BBWAA.

I’ll give Schilling this besides thinking yes, as a player he’s a HOFer:
Schilling got better, heck even more dominant with age. Iirc he started his career with Baltimore and I have no memory of him being above average there before going to Philly. And only late in his Philly tenure, Ace like.
Once in Arizona he was officially that guy.

Again this is just memory and not reading the back of a baseball card. How many guys just keep getting better as pitchers?

Skenes is now 23? Do we expect a linear progression of greatness (already a 2.00 ERA), the next ten years? Modern baseball says NO with several injuries/ dead arm by then.

And now I’ll pull up Schilling’s stats so as to not call BS on myself

[Quake1028]

Skenes is still 22.

[MiamiMarlinsFan]

Originally Posted by Handsome Wes

Video of Tris Speaker at a Klan rally would definitely make its way onto Sportscenter

(if ESPN still did baseball stories)

If Cap Anson would have had a Twitter account, it would not have aged well. Cap refusing to play the Toledo Blues Stockings due to them having a black player would give First Take a few hours worth of content.

[Skipscards]

Schilling was 100% going in on his final ballot but asked the writers not to elect him, so they obliged. It’s really as simple as that. The rest is just noise and irrelevant.

[Scottish Punk]

Originally Posted by Skipscards

Schilling was 100% going in on his final ballot but asked the writers not to elect him, so they obliged. It’s really as simple as that. The rest is just noise and irrelevant.

I mean, yeah. I don't know what all the debating is for. Seem all pretty obvious. If he kept his mouth shut for a few years, he is a HOFer right now.

[awz50]

Originally Posted by Skipscards

Schilling was 100% going in on his final ballot but asked the writers not to elect him, so they obliged. It’s really as simple as that. The rest is just noise and irrelevant.

Because people love this topic for some reason and want to justify another agenda.

[awz50]

I am all for discussing the HOF and voting, but the schilling topic and steroids feel like this...

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by awz50

Because people love this topic for some reason and want to justify another agenda.

Because that only explains the vote for his final year on the ballot.

He should have been in before that, but there's a ton a politics involved with the voting (and I'm not talking about political party politics)

[Jboff73]

The argument going around is that Dustin Pedroia gets in only if Chase Utley gets in first.

Despite Pedroia's MVP and ROY, it's probably correct that Utley has a better career, helped by health, but also by an offensive stretch (2005-2009) that was better than any stretch by Pedroia.

As a fan of Pedroia, I want to know if there's any case or circumstance that Pedroia's gets in if Utley doesn't?

I find myself rooting for Utley.

[Quake1028]

Originally Posted by Jboff73

The argument going around is that Dustin Pedroia gets in only if Chase Utley gets in first.

Despite Pedroia's MVP and ROY, it's probably correct that Utley has a better career, helped by health, but also by an offensive stretch (2005-2009) that was better than any stretch by Pedroia.

As a fan of Pedroia, I want to know if there's any case or circumstance that Pedroia's gets in if Utley doesn't?

I find myself rooting for Utley.

Personally for me, Utley is like inner circle Hall of Very Good. I won't complain too loudly if he makes it, but I wouldn't vote for him. Pedroia is even further under that for me so no chance I think he gets in.

[smanzari]

Originally Posted by Jboff73

The argument going around is that Dustin Pedroia gets in only if Chase Utley gets in first.

Despite Pedroia's MVP and ROY, it's probably correct that Utley has a better career, helped by health, but also by an offensive stretch (2005-2009) that was better than any stretch by Pedroia.

As a fan of Pedroia, I want to know if there's any case or circumstance that Pedroia's gets in if Utley doesn't?

I find myself rooting for Utley.

IMO, if Jeff Kent can't make it in after 10 tries that Utley does not deserve to be there either:

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by smanzari

IMO, if Jeff Kent can't make it in after 10 tries that Utley does not deserve to be there either:

Jeff Kent isn't kept out because of his numbers. The media hated him (the feeling was mutual) so they refused to vote for him out of spite.

[rfgilles]

Originally Posted by Mightymango

Totally agree in regards to Bond and Clemens or for that fact any of the PED guys, MLB knew about it, turned a blind eye, and then when the report came out they just discarded them. That entire era of baseball will really need to be looked at as there is an argument that the use of PEDs in the 90s brought people back to the seats after the strike just about killed the game. (imho)

The McGwire-Sosa home run chase was initially celebrated for revitalizing fan interest after the 1994 strike, though it was later revealed to be driven by performance-enhancing drugs

[rats60]

Originally Posted by whitmm

Because that only explains the vote for his final year on the ballot.

He should have been in before that, but there's a ton a politics involved with the voting (and I'm not talking about political party politics)

No, he was not elected earlier because he was a borderline candidate.