I don’t think buying baseball cards is gambling

[Boo]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

Just because your primary reason for buying into breaks is to build out your collection, doesn't mean it isn't gambling. You don't know what you're getting beyond the team name -- the cards could fall into a wide range of values. So, you're getting a chance at "winning" a prize that is valued beyond the price you paid.

Casual gamblers generally don't expect to win big or come out ahead, but they like the thrill of possibly doing so. To them, gambling is entertainment. This is similar to your logic of buying low-end team slots in breaks to build out your collection -- you don't expect to get a big return, but you like having the possibility.

I gambled with my life by driving into work today.

[Big35Hurt]

In simple terms I look at anything that involves an element of chance and some sort of cost or payment to be able to take said chance as gambling. Whether it's a win/don't win or not knowing EXACTLY what you're going to get in return, it's gambling.

[OhioDodger]

Originally Posted by ScooterD

In the past 2-3 years, posts in this forum have focused on gambling and gamblers. Why is that?

The courts have found that buying sports cards is not gambling, so why do people keep saying that it is or calling others who participate in the hobby/business “gamblers,” “degenerate gamblers,” “Johns,” “muppets,” “Fozzies,” etc?

Prices have gone up - yes - and I understand why people aren’t happy with that; however, why are there so many posts focused on “gamblers” and “gambling” when the price point is set by the manufacturer or retailer (not the customer - they are only justification).

From what I believe it’s now focused on because of breaks, because in some small breaks you could buy a team that doesn’t even show up at all essentially making it a “gamble”
As for actual collectors I don’t view it as a gamble, if anything it’s an investment opportunity


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[ironfireman]

I buy, sell & collect. I rarely open wax. Maybe 2-3 packs a year for fun at my friends LCS. I would buy more if it wasn't so overpriced and not worth it. It's overpriced because it is gambling and attracts gamblers. The gambling doesn't upset me, just makes me buy way less new product, but supports a secondary resale market of singles ect.
So as with the growth of most things there is more good news and more bad news. Just more of each and a bigger market with more $ involved.
Like gambling on sports. It's $ that raises all boats and supports the industry. So as annoying as breakers and the wannabes are. As annoying as the mostly empty racks of overpriced product are. It makes for bigger card shows and a bigger, in some ways better experience, IMO.

[fabiani12333]

For the purposes of defining whether or not group breaking is gambling, does it really matter if the participant is doing it to acquire cards for resale or for their collection?

Let me explain -- the OP has talked about joining breaks to acquire relatively cheap cards for their team collection. But what if instead, they were joining breaks to acquire high-value cards for their collection? Does that change the nature of their activity? It's still a hobby either way, but clearly in the second scenario the participant is trying to win big by buying into breaks.

It doesn't seem to me to matter whether or not a participant is buying into breaks to build a collection -- what matters for the purpose of defining gambling is if they can get more value back than they put in.

When you purchase a single card, you know what you are getting. You are exchanging money for a specific item at a pre-determined asking price. But when you buy into breaks, you can get less or more value back than you put in.

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by auctionjmm

Why does anyone care? Is this some puritanical forum where a few gamblers have to justify their actions to the elders?

This was a thread clearly started just to discuss the topic. Obviously, many people care because the term degenerate is used around here more than the word baseball. So as it clearly is a topic of discussion in the hobby, it merits discussing here. Your problem is you are assuming that people who refer to opening cards, or joining breaks as gambling, are doing so with a negative connotation. As I mentioned before, there is a big difference between gambling in a general sense, and illegal gambling. Don't assume that because I might call a group break gambling by definition, that I'm saying I care whether people engage in it.

[Mandy1320]

I guess it depends on WHY you buy and open boxes/packs. Do you open and enjoy everything inside no matter what it is? Then perhaps that's not gambling.

However, if you open in the hopes of hitting a chase card, a cool auto, to collect rookies, add to a PC etc... then that is 100% gambling because there is a clear goal in mind that's not guaranteed.

[ottobord]

Anyone buying a Chrome Jumbo box for $1200, just to take the chance of hitting the Skenes, is gambling. There is a risk element to any business or investment. But there is a point when the risk becomes gambling. Much of what is happening in the hobby today is gambling. The hobby is just following the MLB lead.

[rms13]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

This was a thread clearly started just to discuss the topic. Obviously, many people care because the term degenerate is used around here more than the word baseball. So as it clearly is a topic of discussion in the hobby, it merits discussing here. Your problem is you are assuming that people who refer to opening cards, or joining breaks as gambling, are doing so with a negative connotation. As I mentioned before, there is a big difference between gambling in a general sense, and illegal gambling. Don't assume that because I might call a group break gambling by definition, that I'm saying I care whether people engage in it.

There are a lot of degenerates in the hobby. I used to do the occasional break. I would only buy into my team that I PC because I have a better chance at getting good cards for PC then I would opening a pack or a single box on my own. Definitely gambling but also entertainment for me. But there were always people in breaks buying every unsold team hoping for hit and if they didn't get it they would keep buying into the next break and the next until they hit something or ran out of money. And then they'd be back to do it again when they got paid. That's degenerate behavior. Guys at the LCS who are buying packs or boxes and ripping them in the store and then buying more and ripping them if they didn't hit anything are degenerates too. It's the same as people buying scratchers at the gas station and scratching them at the counter and then buying more when they don't win and spending an hour in the gas station scratching lottery until they run out of money. Not everyone in the hobby is a degenerate but there are a lot of them. Like not everyone that drinks is an alcoholic.

[Bosoxfan5990]

Originally Posted by Mandy1320

I guess it depends on WHY you go to the casino. Do you play blackjack and enjoy everything no matter if you win or lose? Then perhaps that's not gambling.

However, if you play blackjack in the hopes of being up money etc... then that is 100% gambling because there is a clear goal in mind that's not guaranteed.

FIFY.

[Allen Ginter 99]

Compare it to “pogs”

Some of you might not know what those are but google it

Cards are like pogs pieces of cardboard but square instead of circle

Be happy the “degenerates” are interested in them because once they aren’t and the hobby is no more those 500,000 dollar rookie Ohtani pieces of cardboard won’t be worth the paper it’s printed on


Be careful what you wish for


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[Mandy1320]

Originally Posted by Bosoxfan5990

FIFY.

I mean, I believe it IS possible to open a pack purely for the fun of it. That would probably put you in the 0.00001% but if a person truly does it with zero expectations, then more power to them.

With that said, I am a gambler.

[cardsin47]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

wax is gambling

Correct.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by rms13

There are a lot of degenerates in the hobby. I used to do the occasional break. I would only buy into my team that I PC because I have a better chance at getting good cards for PC then I would opening a pack or a single box on my own. Definitely gambling but also entertainment for me. But there were always people in breaks buying every unsold team hoping for hit and if they didn't get it they would keep buying into the next break and the next until they hit something or ran out of money. And then they'd be back to do it again when they got paid. That's degenerate behavior. Guys at the LCS who are buying packs or boxes and ripping them in the store and then buying more and ripping them if they didn't hit anything are degenerates too. It's the same as people buying scratchers at the gas station and scratching them at the counter and then buying more when they don't win and spending an hour in the gas station scratching lottery until they run out of money. Not everyone in the hobby is a degenerate but there are a lot of them. Like not everyone that drinks is an alcoholic.

That behavior is common among problem gamblers. They are trying to win back money they lost. The fear of losing money is a greater motivator than the potential to gain money.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by Mandy1320

I guess it depends on WHY you buy and open boxes/packs. Do you open and enjoy everything inside no matter what it is? Then perhaps that's not gambling.

However, if you open in the hopes of hitting a chase card, a cool auto, to collect rookies, add to a PC etc... then that is 100% gambling because there is a clear goal in mind that's not guaranteed.

I think a product can be gambling in nature outside of the motivations of the consumer. If a product offers randomized winnings, the winnings are monetarily valuable, and the buyer must risk losing money in order to participate, then it's a gambling product.

[cardsin47]

Any form of randomly collated / boxed products is gambling. Buying into group breaks is gambling. Buying singles on and for speculation is also gambling. Buying singles or sets for your PC as a Collector ~ not gambling. It’s pretty much that simple.

[mc1]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

That behavior is common among problem gamblers. They are trying to win back money they lost. The fear of losing money is a greater motivator than the potential to gain money.

In some circles that is referred to being on “tilt”.

[auctionjmm]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

This was a thread clearly started just to discuss the topic. Obviously, many people care because the term degenerate is used around here more than the word baseball. So as it clearly is a topic of discussion in the hobby, it merits discussing here. Your problem is you are assuming that people who refer to opening cards, or joining breaks as gambling, are doing so with a negative connotation. As I mentioned before, there is a big difference between gambling in a general sense, and illegal gambling. Don't assume that because I might call a group break gambling by definition, that I'm saying I care whether people engage in it.

Did you even read my post? lol. I completely agree with you. An activity can be labeled as gambling but that doesn't mean it has to have a negative connotation behind it. The problem is the large number of people who DO talk about it in a negative sense, causing others to feel self-conscious and ashamed, and then we get 5 pages of those folks trying to explain why this is not gambling so that they don't feel bad about it. That is why I said "who cares". As in, who cares if some stranger on BO refers to breaking or opening wax as a thing that only degenerates do? Tell them to mind their own business. They know nothing about your finances or intentions. Are there degenerate gamblers within the hobby? Of course. There are also overweight sugar addicts who have health issues. That doesn't mean everyone who eats cake is a degenerate.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by cardsin47

Any form of randomly collated / boxed products is gambling. Buying into group breaks is gambling. Buying singles on and for speculation is also gambling. Buying singles or sets for your PC as a Collector ~ not gambling. It’s pretty much that simple.

While speculating involves financial risk, it's not wholly based on random chance. In fact, it might be mostly based on a person's ability to identify good buying opportunities. It also can be based on market influence -- wealthy and big institutional investors can move markets in a favorable direction.

Whereas trading card products, sweepstakes, grab bags, etc are based on randomness -- there is no skill involved in determining odds.

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by auctionjmm

Did you even read my post? lol. I completely agree with you. An activity can be labeled as gambling but that doesn't mean it has to have a negative connotation behind it. The problem is the large number of people who DO talk about it in a negative sense, causing others to feel self-conscious and ashamed, and then we get 5 pages of those folks trying to explain why this is not gambling so that they don't feel bad about it. That is why I said "who cares". As in, who cares if some stranger on BO refers to breaking or opening wax as a thing that only degenerates do? Tell them to mind their own business. They know nothing about your finances or intentions. Are there degenerate gamblers within the hobby? Of course. There are also overweight sugar addicts who have health issues. That doesn't mean everyone who eats cake is a degenerate.

I was responding to your question "Why does anyone care?" Hence only quoting a part of your post. We all care, or else we wouldn't be here. And we can have a discussion about something like OP brought up, without having to care one way or the other.

[f2tornado]

My two cents. Buying single cards is either for fun or for investing or both. Buying and opening packs is akin to buying a scratch-off lotto ticket or throwing money in the slot machine. There's entertainment value but most participants are playing in hopes of hitting something big. It's a gamble. Not much different than the skill games at Chuck-E-Cheese.

[dashcol]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

Whether something is a sound economic decision is completely irrelevant to whether it's gambling. Gambling simply means you are purchasing a chance to get something.

I think one thing OP and many others have missed is the important distinction between gambling and illegal gambling.

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

Just because your primary reason for buying into breaks is to build out your collection, doesn't mean it isn't gambling. You don't know what you're getting beyond the team name -- the cards could fall into a wide range of values. So, you're getting a chance at "winning" a prize that is valued beyond the price you paid.

Casual gamblers generally don't expect to win big or come out ahead, but they like the thrill of possibly doing so. To them, gambling is entertainment. This is similar to your logic of buying low-end team slots in breaks to build out your collection -- you don't expect to get a big return, but you like having the possibility.

So if I buy a box of baseball cards and my only goal is to get baseball cards, which I will in the box, am I still gambling?

I wanted baseball cards, and I got baseball cards.

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

That $10 you spend for your team along with 29 other friends equals to paying $300 for the box.

If the box would otherwise cost $150, you are collectively grossly overpaying for the box, which is not good economics.

I do not think it is bad economics.

It’s like this:

30 teams $10 each = $300
Shipping 30 team lots at $4 each is $120.
Box =$150

So left over money is $30.

That is assuming no tax on the box, and supplies were all free.

The way we do it is any money left over goes into a fund. When we get enough in the fund, then we do a free break where we all get our team for nothing.

No money goes to the breaker.

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by dashcol

So if I buy a box of baseball cards and my only goal is to get baseball cards, which I will in the box, am I still gambling?

I wanted baseball cards, and I got baseball cards.

No. You can't generalize the item received. If I put money in a slot machine that has a guaranteed payout of either $0.01 or $1,000,000, am I gambling because I want money? I'm getting money either way.

It's not about what you want. It's about are you buying something not knowing what specific item you are buying. If there are different possible outcomes, that means chance. Which is gambling.

Again, that doesn't make it a bad thing. It's just a gamble. Plain and simple.

[dashcol]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

No. You can't generalize the item received. If I put money in a slot machine that has a guaranteed payout of either $0.01 or $1,000,000, am I gambling because I want money? I'm getting money either way.

It's not about what you want. It's about are you buying something not knowing what specific item you are buying. If there are different possible outcomes, that means chance. Which is gambling.

Again, that doesn't make it a bad thing. It's just a gamble. Plain and simple.

What if that is what I want though? Not trying to be general. If I am a Mets collector, and they put out the Once Upon a Time set that has only Mets cards, my goal is to get Mets cards. That box would no longer be gambling to me, because all I want is Mets, not caring what they are.

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by dashcol

What if that is what I want though? Not trying to be general. If I am a Mets collector, and they put out the Once Upon a Time set that has only Mets cards, my goal is to get Mets cards. That box would no longer be gambling to me, because all I want is Mets, not caring what they are.

Again, it doesn't matter which cards you want. It's the fact that you don't know which cards you will get, if any.