2025 Baseball Hall of Fame

[Handsome Wes]

Originally Posted by gmarutiak

I agree with every word in this post. It's ridiculous that voters are ok with certain types of cheating but not others.

Some forms of cheating involve breaking rules of the game

Some forms of cheating involve breaking federal laws

[Bosoxfan5990]

Originally Posted by Handsome Wes

Some forms of cheating involve breaking rules of the game

Some forms of cheating involve breaking federal laws

From a game integrity perspective, isn't breaking rules of the game worse?

[Handsome Wes]

Originally Posted by Bosoxfan5990

From a game integrity perspective, isn't breaking rules of the game worse?

I would argue that breaking federal crimes is worse

But here's a thought experiment

Would you be more or less outraged at Wander Franco if his sole transgression was corking his bat?

[Bosoxfan5990]

Originally Posted by Handsome Wes

I would argue that breaking federal crimes is worse

But here's a thought experiment

Would you be more or less outraged at Wander Franco if his sole transgression was corking his bat?

I'm solely talking from a HOF voter perspective.

I'm also not talking serious federal crimes (i.e. murder).

I'm thinking something like smoking/growing/selling weed vs. corking a bat.

[MiamiMarlinsFan]

Originally Posted by Bosoxfan5990

From a game integrity perspective, isn't breaking rules of the game worse?

They grade breaking the rules on a scale. It’s long established that it’s something they’ll evaluate on a case-by-case basis. We sometimes, as a larger baseball community, even romanticize cheating. Just look at Gaylord Perry.

[carlo16]

Originally Posted by Bosoxfan5990

I'm solely talking from a HOF voter perspective.

I'm also not talking serious federal crimes (i.e. murder).

I'm thinking something like smoking/growing/selling weed vs. corking a bat.

David Ortiz took steroids. First ballot HOF.

Albert Belle is a jerk. Not in HOF.

[MiamiMarlinsFan]

Originally Posted by carlo16

David Ortiz took steroids. First ballot HOF.

Albert Belle is a jerk. Not in HOF.

Are you comparing Belle to Ortiz?

[carlo16]

Originally Posted by MiamiMarlinsFan

Are you comparing Belle to Ortiz?

No not at all. Just two guys that came to mind that broke different “rules”.

[Handsome Wes]

Originally Posted by carlo16

David Ortiz took steroids. First ballot HOF.

Albert Belle is a jerk. Not in HOF.

if only that were the sole items on their respective resumes

[carlo16]

Originally Posted by Handsome Wes

if only that were the sole items on their respective resumes

That’s fair.
David Ortiz took steroids and is likable. First ballot HOF

Arod took steroids and is a jerk. Not in HOF.

Their respective resumes put Ortiz closer to Harmon Killebrew while Arod is closer to Babe Ruth.

[MiamiMarlinsFan]

Originally Posted by carlo16

That’s fair.
David Ortiz took steroids and is likable. First ballot HOF

Arod took steroids and is a jerk. Not in HOF.

Their respective resumes put Ortiz closer to Harmon Killebrew while Arod is closer to Babe Ruth.

To be fair, Ortiz never officially failed a test or had some “caught red-handed” moment. I’m not saying whether he took steroids one way or the other, I’m just saying he has more of a reasonable doubt than A-Rod’s steroid suspension or Belle’s corked bats.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by Handsome Wes

I would argue that breaking federal crimes is worse

But here's a thought experiment

Would you be more or less outraged at Wander Franco if his sole transgression was corking his bat?

There are different types of crimes with different levels of harm. What Wander allegedly did is worlds apart from PED use. PEDs are federally controlled substances because they can cause harm if abused by the user -- they aren't inherently harmful. The law needs users to get permission from a physician first. It is never permissible to do what Wander allegedly did.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by MiamiMarlinsFan

They grade breaking the rules on a scale. It’s long established that it’s something they’ll evaluate on a case-by-case basis. We sometimes, as a larger baseball community, even romanticize cheating. Just look at Gaylord Perry.

Perry was inducted in 1991. Can you name a HoF who was caught cheating since then? It seems like the HoF voting body has been emphasizing the character aspects of the voting criteria more since social media became popular over a decade ago.

[ObanMontecristo]

Sammy Sosa corked his bat and took PEDs. cheater, cheater

[rfgilles]

Originally Posted by ObanMontecristo

Sammy Sosa corked his bat and took PEDs. cheater, cheater

And he isn't in the Hall.....

[MiamiMarlinsFan]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

Perry was inducted in 1991. Can you name a HoF who was caught cheating since then? It seems like the HoF voting body has been emphasizing the character aspects of the voting criteria more since social media became popular over a decade ago.

I’m no Turkey Stearnes expert, but I get your point. That being said, there have been several with “clouds of suspicion” elected.

[MtnAg08]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

Perry was inducted in 1991. Can you name a HoF who was caught cheating since then? It seems like the HoF voting body has been emphasizing the character aspects of the voting criteria more since social media became popular over a decade ago.

George Brett was inducted in 1999 and was caught using way too much pine tar on his bat.

[JimEd14]

Originally Posted by MiamiMarlinsFan

To be fair, Ortiz never officially failed a test or had some “caught red-handed” moment. I’m not saying whether he took steroids one way or the other, I’m just saying he has more of a reasonable doubt than A-Rod’s steroid suspension or Belle’s corked bats.

Thank you for this.

MLB testing started in 2004 and Ortiz never failed a test.

His only implication was a 2003 survey that was trying to get the overall percentage of use of PEDs in the league to see if testing would go into place in 2004. Both the MLB and the MLBPA have stated the New York times list of names of those testing positive (where Ortiz was named) was 10-15% greater than the actual number of positive tests and players were never even told what they tested positive for.

Then from 2004 until his last season in 2016, Ortiz never tested positive.

Every All Star Game appearance, every top 10 MVP appearance came while the MLB was testing for PEDs. People seem too lazy to understand this.

[carlo16]

Originally Posted by MiamiMarlinsFan

To be fair, Ortiz never officially failed a test or had some “caught red-handed” moment. I’m not saying whether he took steroids one way or the other, I’m just saying he has more of a reasonable doubt than A-Rod’s steroid suspension or Belle’s corked bats.

Ortiz’s red handed moment was swept under the rug while Arods wasn’t. You know they both took steroids and are taking the high road of no proof and that’s fine. The Ortiz and Arod steroids Yankees Red Sox thing is tired anyway.

I was just commenting on how the hall overlooks some cheating and its inconsistency. Carry on.

[Skipscards]

Originally Posted by Drew3000

Voted on awards shouldn’t ever be a factor. Gold gloves, silver sluggers, all star game appearances, MVP, Cy young

There’s no metric, just whoever the voters see fit to get the award and that’s silliness.

Unfortunately, that’s also the metric the HOf uses. Until there’s some objective measure, HOF really means squat

I mean, the Hall of Fame itself is a voted on award. Of course voted on awards are part of the narrative and should absolutely be considered. An objective measure would make the HOF useless and boring. There'd be no debate. There'd be no interest.

[Skipscards]

Originally Posted by MiamiMarlinsFan

To be fair, Ortiz never officially failed a test or had some “caught red-handed” moment. I’m not saying whether he took steroids one way or the other, I’m just saying he has more of a reasonable doubt than A-Rod’s steroid suspension or Belle’s corked bats.

Ortiz did fail a test. He failed the 2003 test and admitted it. Manfred just decided to campaign for Big Papi because he finds him loveable.

[Skipscards]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

Perry was inducted in 1991. Can you name a HoF who was caught cheating since then? It seems like the HoF voting body has been emphasizing the character aspects of the voting criteria more since social media became popular over a decade ago.

Don Sutton.

[Skipscards]

Originally Posted by MtnAg08

George Brett was inducted in 1999 and was caught using way too much pine tar on his bat.

Actually, he wasn't. That was overturned by the commissioner on appeal.

[green4407]

Roger Clemens was never caught cheating.

[MiamiMarlinsFan]

Originally Posted by Skipscards

Ortiz did fail a test. He failed the 2003 test and admitted it. Manfred just decided to campaign for Big Papi because he finds him loveable.

When did he admit to it? Do you have a link? I did a light Google search, but couldn’t find anything. I believe you, I just want to find a quote.

From Wikipedia:

“On July 30, 2009, The New York Times, citing anonymous sources, reported that Ortiz was among a group of over 100 major league players on a list compiled by federal investigators, that allegedly tested positive for performance-enhancing drugs during Major League Baseball survey testing conducted in spring training of 2003.[116] The survey testing was agreed to by Major League Baseball and the Major League Baseball Players Association to determine the extent of performance-enhancing drug use among players before permanent testing was officially implemented starting in 2004. As part of the agreement, the results of the survey testing were supposed to remain confidential and no suspensions or penalties would be issued to any player testing positive.”

Again, not trying to make an argument that he didn’t, just looking at the facts as we know them.