Roger Maris HOF - Page 2

corndog · 02-15-2025, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

there are some clowns in the hobby that think Aaron Judge is the single season Home Run King because he hit 62 home runs in one season.

I guess I am a clown then.

aggie4ever · 02-15-2025, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

there are some clowns in the hobby that think Aaron Judge is the single season Home Run King because he hit 62 home runs in one season.

And who think Judge is already a first ballot HOF inductee because of that and 2 awesome MVP seasons. Maris' case should open their eyes... he was he actual Home Run King, won 2 MVPs, and 3 World Series, and isn't in. Because as mentioned above, the HOF is mostly about lifetime stats, and Maris didn't play long enough.

Natsfan32 · 02-15-2025, 01:47 PM

If I had a vote I'd vote for Maris, Dale Murphy and Don Mattingly. All were iconic players who were among the best for a substantial but relatively brief period. There are a number of less-deserving players in the Hall.

rats60 · 02-15-2025, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

Not true at all. The only reason certain players got voted in was because of WAR -- Mike Mussina, Scott Rolen, Joe Mauer, and Todd Helton.

On the flip side, Fred McGriff didn't get voted in because of his relatively low WAR.

False

Ichiro 60 WAR 99.7%
Bobby Abreu 60.2 WAR 19.5%
Mark Buehrle 59.1 WAR 11.4%

Clearly WAR doesn't matter.

Bosoxfan5990 · 02-15-2025, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Handsome Wes

Okay, it makes little sense to respond to a "why isn't Maris in the Hall of Fame" by falling back on WAR, which wasn't a thing when Maris was around.

Yes, he had the two other-worldly seasons, and was solid in a few more. But he was largely cooked by the time he hit 30. As such, his career numbers fall short: 1300 hits / 275 home runs / 850 RBIs (not to mention a .260 batting average), only four All-Star seasons... From that perspective, he's basically Raul Mondesi.

He also hit the HOF ballot at a terrible time - literally on the same one as Mickey Mantle (and 15 others who've now been sent to Cooperstown). His numbers pale in comparison to Mantle, and even players such as Eddie Matthews, who took five turns to get the call.

(I also can't speak about the relationship with the media. He was famously not as outgoing as Mantle. Don't know if there was acrimony).

It's not an apples-to-apples comparison, but I'm sort of reminded of Denny McClain the pitcher. He had two years as the greatest pitcher on the planet, but such a short career.

He'll, of course, always have a spot in baseball lore. Just like so many others. Hall of very good. Hall of Legends. And that should be good enough.

Sounds like Mike Trout.

xDomePatrolx · 02-15-2025, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

there are some clowns in the hobby that think Aaron Judge is the single season Home Run King because he hit 62 home runs in one season.

There are also those that discount players from the 90s because of PEDs not realizing they were being used since the early days of baseball.

Drew3000 · 02-15-2025, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Natsfan32

If I had a vote I'd vote for Maris, Dale Murphy and Don Mattingly. All were iconic players who were among the best for a substantial but relatively brief period. There are a number of less-deserving players in the Hall.

That’s why it’s meaningless. There’s no rhyme or reason to it

ThoseBackPages · 02-15-2025, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xDomePatrolx

There are also those that discount players from the 90s because of PEDs not realizing they were being used since the early days of baseball.

thats true.

those people also tend to have a holier than thou attitude which is unfortunate as Baseball is for our entertainment.

fabiani12333 · 02-15-2025, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60

False

Ichiro 60 WAR 99.7%
Bobby Abreu 60.2 WAR 19.5%
Mark Buehrle 59.1 WAR 11.4%

Clearly WAR doesn't matter.

You have to compare players from the same position. You also have to factor in peak WAR along with career WAR -- JAWS does that.

Ichiro is a unique case, as he started his MLB career later due to first being a professional in Japan. Plus, he had 3,000 hits, which makes a player an automatic Hall of Famer -- e.g., Craig Biggio.

JAWS positional ranking:

Ichiro: 17 (three spots below average)
Abreu: 22
Buehrle: 79

Ichiro has an above-average WAR7.

Mike Mussina, Scott Rolen, Joe Mauer and Todd Helton are all above average in JAWS score -- McGriff is below average.

marl1220 · 02-15-2025, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hxcmilkshake

how great is that?

Sent from my SM-S928U using Tapatalk

Handsome Wes · 02-15-2025, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

thats true.

those people also tend to have a holier than thou attitude which is unfortunate as Baseball is for our entertainment.

yeah, and for those keeping score at home, the PED players don't get in because their numbers are artificially inflated, but the non-PED players don't get in because their numbers weren't as good as those whose numbers were artificially inflated.

ScooterD · 02-15-2025, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Handsome Wes

yeah, and for those keeping score at home, the PED players don't get in because their numbers are artificially inflated, but the non-PED players don't get in because their numbers weren't as good as those whose numbers were artificially inflated.

I’ve always felt this way too

OhioLawyerF5 · 02-15-2025, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Handsome Wes

yeah, and for those keeping score at home, the PED players don't get in because their numbers are artificially inflated, but the non-PED players don't get in because their numbers weren't as good as those whose numbers were artificially inflated.

"non-PED"

That's rich.

Noles939913 · 02-15-2025, 07:35 PM

He absolutely should be in. It’s the Hall of FAME not the Hall of Stats or the Hall of WAR. Nobody’s making a movie about Harold Baines.

volblorx8634 · 02-15-2025, 07:46 PM

Excuse the ignorance, but just to clarify, does this mean the only reason I know Roger Maris is because of that 61 HR record?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

pspa123 · 02-15-2025, 08:36 PM

The 10 year minimum requirement implies that the Hall of Fame is very much about lifetime achievement. Maris' career isn't even close. A single season record, however historical, does not qualify him. He had several very good seasons as well, but for his career, not close.

Onions · 02-15-2025, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by everwake

I was excited to see the Roger Maris Museum when I moved into the area. I put the address into Google but was saddened when I saw they built a mall on top of where it once was.

Later, while shopping at said mall, I realized that it's actually in the mall next to a nail salon and a Best Buy. It's small but nicely done.

There was a card shop in that wing many years ago. Sadly, his MVP trophy and Hickok Belt were stolen from the museum in 2016. The thieves were eventually caught, but they had melted the trophy down and cut the belt in half.

Welcome to the frozen tundra!

49ersSF · 02-15-2025, 10:55 PM

Maris should not be in.

With that said, it is so ridiculous for people to use WAR as a tool for gauging whether a player should or should not be in the hall of fame. People use the numerical value of WAR and justify whoever have the higher WAR must be the better player.

1973 Bobby Grich 8.3 WAR

.251 BA 12 HR 50 RBI's .373 OBA .387 SLG .760 OPS

2012 Miguel Cabrera 7.1 WAR

.330 BA 44 HR 139 RBI's .393 OBA .606 SLG .999 OPS *1st Triple Crown in 45 years*

If you go by WAR....clearly Bobby Grich had the better season and was the better player.

fabiani12333 · 02-16-2025, 04:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 49ersSF

Maris should not be in.

With that said, it is so ridiculous for people to use WAR as a tool for gauging whether a player should or should not be in the hall of fame. People use the numerical value of WAR and justify whoever have the higher WAR must be the better player.

1973 Bobby Grich 8.3 WAR

.251 BA 12 HR 50 RBI's .373 OBA .387 SLG .760 OPS

2012 Miguel Cabrera 7.1 WAR

.330 BA 44 HR 139 RBI's .393 OBA .606 SLG .999 OPS *1st Triple Crown in 45 years*

If you go by WAR....clearly Bobby Grich had the better season and was the better player.

You're using an extreme example. Grich's very high WAR that season is due to his extremely-high dWAR -- 4.0. Defensive ratings prior to the 2000s are not reliable -- they are guesstimations.

As for Cabrera's 2012 WAR being only 7.1 bWAR -- even though he won the so-called prestigious Triple Crown Award, it wasn't even his best offensive season. He'd follow it up with even a better season in 2013, with a much higher BA, OBP and SLG%. If you go by RE24 and WPA, his 2013 season blows his 2012 season out of the water.

Drew3000 · 02-16-2025, 06:58 AM

Only oWAR should ever be used imo.

TBTC Baseball · 02-16-2025, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noles939913

Nobody’s making a movie about Harold Baines.

Is there anything from the 60's that hasn't gotten a movie? It isn't a high bar.

ottobord · 02-16-2025, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by volblorx8634

Excuse the ignorance, but just to clarify, does this mean the only reason I know Roger Maris is because of that 61 HR record?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Pretty much, he played on winning teams that helps too. Bobby Murcer had a similar career with no huge year. We don't hear anything about him

ScooterD · 02-16-2025, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

You're using an extreme example. Grich's very high WAR that season is due to his extremely-high dWAR -- 4.0. Defensive ratings prior to the 2000s are not reliable -- they are guesstimations.

As for Cabrera's 2012 WAR being only 7.1 bWAR -- even though he won the so-called prestigious Triple Crown Award, it wasn't even his best offensive season. He'd follow it up with even a better season in 2013, with a much higher BA, OBP and SLG%. If you go by RE24 and WPA, his 2013 season blows his 2012 season out of the water.

WAR makes Grich looks better than Maz and Aparicio. What imperfection accounts for that?

Noles939913 · 02-16-2025, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TBTC Baseball

Is there anything from the 60's that hasn't gotten a movie? It isn't a high bar.

Well yeah the 1960s was an interesting time.

Above the Rim · 02-16-2025, 02:02 PM

It is the Hall of "FAME".

Is Maris not famous ?

Did Maris not hold one of the most hallowed records in all of sports ?

Baseball and the fans deserve so see FAMOUS ballplayers in the Hall, no ?

Always exceptions to the general rule - this is one of them.

02-15-2025, 07:35 PM	#39
Noles939913 Member Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 6,868	He absolutely should be in. It’s the Hall of FAME not the Hall of Stats or the Hall of WAR. Nobody’s making a movie about Harold Baines. __________________ “Mr. Phillips found old Johnny Cash and he was high High before he ever took those pills and he's still too proud to die Mr. Phillips never said anything behind nobody's back Like, "Dammit Elvis, don't he know, he ain't no Johnny Cash"

02-15-2025, 07:46 PM	#40
volblorx8634 Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: OC Posts: 4,129 kd35durant	Excuse the ignorance, but just to clarify, does this mean the only reason I know Roger Maris is because of that 61 HR record? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk __________________ PC: Sacramento Kings and Cleveland Indians Looking for these cards: 1. 2018-19 National Treasure Tim Duncan Game Gear /10 (non-trim) 2. 2016 Kawhi Leonard Hoops Base Parallels (and Bird's Eye View Gold /10)

02-15-2025, 08:36 PM	#41
pspa123 Member Join Date: Jun 2017 Posts: 3,711	The 10 year minimum requirement implies that the Hall of Fame is very much about lifetime achievement. Maris' career isn't even close. A single season record, however historical, does not qualify him. He had several very good seasons as well, but for his career, not close. __________________ "We will control the horizontal. We will control the vertical. We can roll the image, make it flutter. We can change the focus to a soft blur, or sharpen it to crystal clarity." Opening narration, The Outer Limits.

02-15-2025, 10:55 PM	#43
49ersSF Member Join Date: Dec 2017 Location: San Francisco Posts: 3,838	Maris should not be in. With that said, it is so ridiculous for people to use WAR as a tool for gauging whether a player should or should not be in the hall of fame. People use the numerical value of WAR and justify whoever have the higher WAR must be the better player. 1973 Bobby Grich 8.3 WAR .251 BA 12 HR 50 RBI's .373 OBA .387 SLG .760 OPS 2012 Miguel Cabrera 7.1 WAR .330 BA 44 HR 139 RBI's .393 OBA .606 SLG .999 OPS 1st Triple Crown in 45 years If you go by WAR....clearly Bobby Grich had the better season and was the better player. __________________ They see what they have been told to see.

02-16-2025, 06:58 AM	#45
Drew3000 Member Join Date: Sep 2018 Location: Kentucky Posts: 862	Only oWAR should ever be used imo. __________________ Looking for: 2010 Joey Votto Topps Black /59

02-15-2025, 01:47 PM	#28
Natsfan32 Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Posts: 162	If I had a vote I'd vote for Maris, Dale Murphy and Don Mattingly. All were iconic players who were among the best for a substantial but relatively brief period. There are a number of less-deserving players in the Hall.

02-16-2025, 02:02 PM	#50
Above the Rim Member Join Date: Sep 2020 Posts: 730	It is the Hall of "FAME". Is Maris not famous ? Did Maris not hold one of the most hallowed records in all of sports ? Baseball and the fans deserve so see FAMOUS ballplayers in the Hall, no ? Always exceptions to the general rule - this is one of them.