PITCHERS: Official Thread of the Hobby’s Outcast Position

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

This is kind of a funny example. Not to take anything away from Ted Willaims, clearly an American Hero but he flew a F9 which tops out at like 650 mph

F-14 (dad built these which is cool aside) and F-22 go what 1500 mph? I don't see how flying a plane 1/3 of the speed of modern combat jets proves he can easily handle modern fastballs. I'm not saying he couldn't to be clear just this seems like worst proof possible

Ironically, it's better "proof" than anything you've provided, which has amounted to "Ted couldn't hit today because I said so."

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

Not even close.

In 20 years we will look back and you'll be saying how DeGrom and pitchers of today would be terrible now. It's the natural progression of your argument. You are just captive by the moment.

I like Degrom and know he's injury prone but shocked at the amount of time he's missed in the last 5 years.

[johnlocke36]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

Ironically, it's better "proof" than anything you've provided, which has amounted to "Ted couldn't hit today because I said so."

Yes the fact that someone flew a plane 1/3 the speed
Of modern fighter planes is much better proof then the infinite Amount of data which shows batters perform worse at literally every single velocity jump and are pretty much worthless vs 100+ as well as all of the data that shows league wide velocity has pretty much went up every single season.

Should def draw conclusions from former over the latter

I feel like most of the divide from this issue comes from what your approach to coaching kids etc is going to be and most people are just gonna be wrong. The truth (we cna debate if it sad or not but not the truth) if a kid wants to ever play in the majors or even D1 then your just gonna need to get into the velocity lab, and when you have your first TJ know it’s not that big of a deal

[johnlocke36]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

Ironically, it's better "proof" than anything you've provided, which has amounted to "Ted couldn't hit today because I said so."

I’m sure you won’t count this as proof but let’s agree it’s data.





First let’s look at batters from 10-25 years ago draw any conclusions you like.

Obv the argument is they aren’t used to seeing gas so modem hitters will perform better vs higher velocities



Fwiw sliders see a drop in BA of around 60 points for 10 mph difference

Well these guys throwing 101 are dominating because they have the best command and offered stuff (agree with the secondary stuff argument fwiw). What if there were people that there very hard but prob had poor command or poor secondary pitches they would prob be in AAA to “learn how to pitch” surely we should see batters performing pretty well there vs higher velocities since these pitchers naturally have to have poor command. If they had good command and were throwing 100 they wousknt be in AAA (unless you play for the pirates and are named bubba)




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[OhioLawyerF5]

It's data. It's data that makes a point I have repeatedly agreed with. That is, all things equal, a faster pitch is harder to hit. It's the conclusions you draw about abilities of players from that data that I disagree with.

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

Well these guys throwing 101 are dominating because they have the best command and offered stuff (agree with the secondary stuff argument fwiw). What if there were people that there very hard but prob had poor command or poor secondary pitches they would prob be in AAA to “learn how to pitch” surely we should see batters performing pretty well there vs higher velocities since these pitchers naturally have to have poor command. If they had good command and were throwing 100 they wousknt be in AAA (unless you play for the pirates and are named bubba)

This entire paragraph is an argument for velocity not being the most important thing.

Part of what makes hitting against 100+ is uncertainity. Because hitting 100 means you have to start your swing sooner than you would a 90 mph breaking pitch.

And yes, part of the reason why guys struggled more against velocity years ago because they weren't regularly seeing it.

Look at your graphs. In 2008, average against 101-102 was .118. Your chart from 2015-17 shows that it was closer to the .190 range. It's gone up because they are seeing it more.

And none of this data proves that players today are "naturally better" or that guys from yesteryear would struggle.

[MiamiMarlinsFan]

I miss when the days when this thread was about current pitchers and showing cool cards of theirs that often go under appreciated. Those were good times.

[Bosoxfan5990]

Originally Posted by MiamiMarlinsFan

I miss when the days when this thread was about current pitchers and showing cool cards of theirs that often go under appreciated. Those were good times.

The usual suspects derailed it.

[MiamiMarlinsFan]

Originally Posted by Bosoxfan5990

The usual suspects derailed it.

I just keep waiting for that conversation end, but it’s been days now. It just keeps looping. I feel like everyone would be better served if they took the debate into its own thread, especially since it has nothing to do with the original purpose of this thread.

[OhioLawyerF5]

Instead of complaining, post more cards. Talk more about current pitchers. Direct the conversation where you want it to go. Complaint posts are just as worthless as off topic posts.

[Archangel1775]

I'll respect the original topic of the thread. I will refrain from defending my opinion that Ted Williams, Mickey Mantle and Tony Gwynn are greater baseball players than Joey Gallo and that Nolan Ryan is a greater pitcher than Mason Miller. Moving on!

[whitmm]

Joc Pederson is doing his darnedest to make every pitcher look amazing! Zero for his last 41.

[whyconform]

I'll have to read this thread........PITCHERS are wayyyy underrated. When it comes to winning teams, it comes down to pitching.

I love that I supercollect Maddux 90's...... Guys like Pedro / Randy / Maddux / Clemens...you won't see guys like this .......300 wins, 3000 k's , etc.....

With respect to 90's....we all know Griffey is king, but Bonds really should be, and Maddux SHOULD be right there w/ thomas and an overrated jeter....

[MiamiMarlinsFan]

Originally Posted by whyconform

I'll have to read this thread........PITCHERS are wayyyy underrated. When it comes to winning teams, it comes down to pitching.

I love that I supercollect Maddux 90's...... Guys like Pedro / Randy / Maddux / Clemens...you won't see guys like this .......300 wins, 3000 k's , etc.....

With respect to 90's....we all know Griffey is king, but Bonds really should be, and Maddux SHOULD be right there w/ thomas and an overrated jeter....

Would love to see some of your cards. I grew up a huge fan of Maddux and Pedro.

[Pierce44]

One of my favorites to watch. Picked up at a LCS in NC on vacation. Sent to PSA. Happy with the grade.

[MiamiMarlinsFan]

Originally Posted by Pierce44

One of my favorites to watch. Picked up at a LCS in NC on vacation. Sent to PSA. Happy with the grade.

Nice. I’m hoping his relatively short career doesn’t keep him from the HoF.

[Pierce44]

Originally Posted by MiamiMarlinsFan

Nice. I’m hoping his relatively short career doesn’t keep him from the HoF.

I compare him to Jake Peavy. Dominant for several years with a couple of OUTRAGEOUS years, but not enough for the Hall.

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by whyconform

I'll have to read this thread........PITCHERS are wayyyy underrated. When it comes to winning teams, it comes down to pitching.

I love that I supercollect Maddux 90's...... Guys like Pedro / Randy / Maddux / Clemens...you won't see guys like this .......300 wins, 3000 k's , etc.....

With respect to 90's....we all know Griffey is king, but Bonds really should be, and Maddux SHOULD be right there w/ thomas and an overrated jeter....

Madddux card values were up there in the 90's but fell off at the end of his career. Obviously his hard to find stuff popular as heck though. His personality rivals Greinke, IMO. Very unique.

[tmoore_25]

Originally Posted by MiamiMarlinsFan

I miss when the days when this thread was about current pitchers and showing cool cards of theirs that often go under appreciated. Those were good times.

I agree with this statement.

So, I will try to get us back on track. Although, I don't think this guy was under rated.

[Rbradleigh]

Originally Posted by Pierce44

One of my favorites to watch. Picked up at a LCS in NC on vacation. Sent to PSA. Happy with the grade.

Bow down to the King

[eye4talent]

Originally Posted by whitmm

Joc Pederson is doing his darnedest to make every pitcher look amazing! Zero for his last 41.

Until tonight. He just smoked a double to center off some Mason Miller guy.


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[rwperu34]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

Not even close.

In 20 years we will look back and you'll be saying how DeGrom and pitchers of today would be terrible now. It's the natural progression of your argument. You are just captive by the moment.

Exactly. First it was Maddux. Then it was Pedro (remember that guy?). Then maybe Kershaw (I might still take Pedro). Now deGrom. In 5-20 years someone else will come in, put up an ERA+ of over 200 over a multiple year stretch, win 2 or 3 CYA during said time frame, and wear the new crown.

This is how progress works. In everything. Everything in your life is better now than 30 years ago except your hairline, eyesight, and achy back and/or knees. Oh, and your stress level was much lower back then due to less people relying on you. That's why you think those guys were better. Nostalgia, plain and simple. Next you'll probably tell me they don't build cars like they used to or TV//Movies were bettter back then (which is litearlly impossible) or the college bar scene was better (this was a real debate I had with someone!).

[rwperu34]

I just readjusted my prices for pitchers accounting for hot starts and possible increases in true talent (not much movement here). There is not a ton of value out there in pitchers right now. I'm currently grinding my way through the MLB hitters and it looks quite a bit better.

The pitcher that got the biggest bump in true talent is Jesus Luzardo. His early start is dominant, the kind that carries (big jump in K with a drop in BB). Most importantly, his FB velocity is up over 1 MPH. His cards are definitely overpriced, but if he's really 22:1 to win the Cy Young, that’s a bet worth making IMO.

[johnlocke36]

Originally Posted by eye4talent

Until tonight. He just smoked a double to center off some Mason Miller guy.


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I actually missed the game (first appearance this year). How did Miller end up doing?

[ScooterD]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

I actually missed the game (first appearance this year). How did Miller end up doing?

1 hit, 3 Ks, 13 pitches

10 fastballs - all 100-103, including the hit (101)