Hall of Famers We Are Watching in 2020

[jhssketchcards]

Originally Posted by Biohazarddfl

It won't matter. Koufax also didn't have to pitch 2700 innings.

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Koufax threw more innings in 6 years than deGrom has thrown in 12 seasons.


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[rwperu34]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

Judge has only four seasons in which he qualified for the batting title -- do you understand how few that is as it relates to the Hall of Fame and even his peers? His peak IS basically his career.

Number of seasons with at least 502 PA (qualified for batting title) among Hall of Fame-caliber active position players older than 30 years of age:

Mookie Betts: 9

Freddie Freeman: 12

Francisco Lindor: 8

Jose Ramirez: 8

Nolan Arenado: 10

Manny Machado: 10

Bryce Harper: 8

Jose Altuve: 11

Aaron Judge: 4!


Number of seasons with at least 502 PA among Hall of Fame right-fielders who've played since 1990:

Larry Walker: 10

Vladimir Guerrero: 12

Ichiro Suzuki: 13

Tony Gwynn: 13

That's great and all. Now show me a peak like Judge's? It's pretty much Bonds, Ruth, and Williams.

The comparable on the pitching side would be Sandy Koufax. For all the seasons he was eligilble for the ERA title, the only six that mattered were the six that he made the All Star team. Aaron Judge is headed for his 7th All Star appearance and likely 3rd MVP in 4 seasons.

[Biohazarddfl]

Originally Posted by jhssketchcards

Koufax threw more innings in 6 years than deGrom has thrown in 12 seasons.


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You could say this about most mlb pitchers these days. This isn't going to be held against any of them. No one is going to give a #@#@#@#@ about complete games when voting for the next 50 years.

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[jlzinck]

Originally Posted by Skipscards

Here’s mine. Though not in a specific order, they are as they popped in my head. So the top 10 I would say are mortal locks. Go ahead and buy your autos now. As the list progresses, I get more speculative unless I happened to forget someone early on (McCutchen and Yelich, for example). Also, I am sure I am forgetting someone, but here it goes:

1. Clayton Kershaw
2. Mike Trout
3. Albert Pujols
4. Justin Verlander
5. Zack Greinke
6. Miguel Cabrera
7. Buster Posey
8. Stephen Strasburg
9. Max Scherzer
10. Mookie Betts
11. Dustin Pedroia
12. Paul Goldschmidt
13. Joey Votto
14. Manny Machado
15. Bryce Harper
16. Jacob deGrom
17. Kris Bryant
18. Carlos Correa
19. Jose Altuve
20. Alex Bregman
21. Gerrit Cole
22. Salvador Perez
23. Madison Bumgarner
24. Robinson Cano
25. Cole Hamels
26. Evan Longoria
27. Chris Sale
28. Andrew McCutchen
29. Cody Bellinger
30. Corey Seager
31. Giancarlo Stanton
32. Aaron Judge
33. Juan Soto
34. Ronald Acuna Jr
35. Trea Turner
36. Mike Soroka
37. Vladimir Guerrero Jr
38. Fernando Tatis Jr
39. Bo Bichette
40. Christian Yelich
.

Bold Still in.
Blue still possible
Red No Bleeping way.

But then I never thought CC Sabathia had a HOF career as a follower of Baseball since 1972 so who knows

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by 49ersSF

Even if he gets to Koufax innings he's not in. Koufax has 4 rings and an 0.95 ERA in 57 World Series innings. Sandy Koufax won an MVP. He won 2 WS MVP's. He was a 2-time Major League player of the year. 5x on the ERA title.

Koufax has all the accolades and achievements that allow him entry into the HoF without having a lengthy career.

de Grom has 2 Cy Young wins and 1 ERA title. Thats it.

There is no way de Grom's career even remotely looks like Koufax.

Though I'm 100% with you in regards to who is the greater baseball player, the main point is whether or not DeGrom is a future Hall of Famer "right now". Personally, I don't think so and the comparison to Johan Santana is a fair one. The bigger issue is once you get passed the MLB pitchers that debuted before 2010, so Verlander, Kershaw,Greinke, Scherzer and whomever else I missed, how do you recognize the greatest pitchers of this generation? Is it Cy Young awards? It can't be or Blake Snell would be in the conversation. When it comes down to it, it's a multitude of factors and I believe playoff performance and championships will make the difference.

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by jlzinck

Bold Still in.
Blue still possible
Red No Bleeping way.

But then I never thought CC Sabathia had a HOF career as a follower of Baseball since 1972 so who knows

Did you know Greinke has a WAR that puts him in the Top 75 baseball players of All-Time? It'll be difficult to keep him out with 6 Gold Gloves, 8x All-Star,2 ERA titles and a Cy Young Award

[Biohazarddfl]

Greinke isn't in now? Im learning so much here

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[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by Biohazarddfl

Greinke isn't in now? Im learning so much here

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Did you know Madison Bumgarner is an idiot? If not, you know now. He's not sniffing the Hall of Fame unless he buys a ticket and I'm happy about that. Yes, I'm a bitter Giants fan.

[Biohazarddfl]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

Did you know Madison Bumgarner is an idiot? If not, you know now. He's not sniffing the Hall of Fame unless he buys a ticket and I'm happy about that. Yes, I'm a bitter Giants fan.

I loved Bumgarner.

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[NickyCards]

When I think of postseason dominance 2014 Bumgarner is the first person that comes to mind.

[corndog]

DeGrom is not in based on what he has done so far. IMO

[johnlocke36]

Originally Posted by jhssketchcards

Koufax threw more innings in 6 years than deGrom has thrown in 12 seasons.


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Koufax sucked for the first 6 years of his career. DeGrom was one of the best pitchers in baseball his first year on. DeGrom worst season of his career (not counting for injuries obv) he finished 8th in Cy Young voting

Honest question, If he would have come up when he was 21 (when he was a college short stop) instead of 26 and put together 5 years and 1,000 innings with a 3.9 era does that make him more qualified or less qualified for the hall of game.

[corockies]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

Though I'm 100% with you in regards to who is the greater baseball player, the main point is whether or not DeGrom is a future Hall of Famer "right now". Personally, I don't think so and the comparison to Johan Santana is a fair one. The bigger issue is once you get passed the MLB pitchers that debuted before 2010, so Verlander, Kershaw,Greinke, Scherzer and whomever else I missed, how do you recognize the greatest pitchers of this generation? Is it Cy Young awards? It can't be or Blake Snell would be in the conversation. When it comes down to it, it's a multitude of factors and I believe playoff performance and championships will make the difference.

If this is the case, then chalk up Jon Lester and Madison Bumgarner for the HoF. Their postseason stats are probably the best out of any pitchers in the 2000's.

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by corockies

If this is the case, then chalk up Jon Lester and Madison Bumgarner for the HoF. Their postseason stats are probably the best out of any pitchers in the 2000's.

I'm talking exclusively about DeGrom. He needs to add postseason accolades to his resume. But if were taking pitchers that debuted in the 2010's, Blake Snell would need to do the same unless he went on a stretch of dominance. Lester doesn't count, he debuted in the 2000's, so a different generation. MadBum just doesn't have the regular season resume for the HOF.

[bulljh]

He will need a cy young to get in but Zach Wheeler has been making some noise these past few years and looks amazing this year.

[ObanMontecristo]

[QUOTE=johnlocke36;19908775]Koufax sucked for the first 6 years of his career. DeGrom was one of the best pitchers in baseball his first year on. DeGrom worst season of his career (not counting for injuries obv) he finished 8th in Cy Young voting

Honest question, If he would have come up when he was 21 (when he was a college short stop) instead of 26 and put together 5 years and 1,000 innings with a 3.9 era does that make him more qualified or less qualified for the hall of game.[/QUOTE]

You need to be more realistic in your assessment of deGrom’s career… he was a good pitcher from 2014-2017, but not one of the best in baseball (i.e., top 5). He had two incredible full seasons in 2018 and 2019 where I think you can argue he was the best. I’ll even give you the COVID-shortened year of 2020. After that though, injuries have limited his production significantly to 92 IP or less (usually far less). For me, the “best” starting pitchers eat innings. You can’t say that for deGrom from 2021-forward. Sure it would have been nice to see what he could have done for that period of time, if healthy, but he wasn’t. He just hasn’t built a big enough HOF case for me at this point, and I don’t see him building one at age 37.

[Biohazarddfl]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

Koufax sucked for the first 6 years of his career. DeGrom was one of the best pitchers in baseball his first year on. DeGrom worst season of his career (not counting for injuries obv) he finished 8th in Cy Young voting

Honest question, If he would have come up when he was 21 (when he was a college short stop) instead of 26 and put together 5 years and 1,000 innings with a 3.9 era does that make him more qualified or less qualified for the hall of game.

This is what the voters understand. Degrom has been dominant every year. No fall off. The people on this board want him to pitch 1000 mediocre innings. He's going to the hall because he is the most dominant pitcher of his generation. And let me save you the time... when is the last time you would pick Kershaw over Degrom if you had a big game? Further, ask Vegas who would impact odds for a championship more? Everyone knows it's Degrom

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[ObanMontecristo]

deGrom has been virtually invisible the last 5 years. I dont care if he comes out and throws gems for his 5 starts per year, it’s an afterthought because the guy can’t stay healthy. He’s never making the HOF.

[clsports]

Originally Posted by bulljh

He will need a cy young to get in but Zach Wheeler has been making some noise these past few years and looks amazing this year.

Please let it happen this year!

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by Biohazarddfl

This is what the voters understand.

Do they, though?

[Biohazarddfl]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

Do they, though?

Yes, you are all hung up on things that won't matter to voters regarding pitchers. Im glad you are chiming in. I can't wait to come back to this thread down the road.

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[Skipscards]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

Technicalities my man. To be eligible for the HOF, you need to have had 10 years of service time. But if something out of the ordinary happened like a freak career ending injury(similar to Kirby Puckett) or worse, I could see a waiver or similar to induct him right away. Now if he just pulled some strange thing where he freaked out ala Antonio Brown, threw his jersey off and two middle fingers to all the fans? Haha. Or if he did something like pop on steroids or pull a Wander? He's not. Obviously any of that would be out of character so its safe to say, he just needs two years.




Funny, pretty sure he went from lock to doorstep in my listing because I knew you'd chime in. Haha

[Skipscards]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

You can't really compare this stuff wihtout going both ways, If DeGrom got to face the same hitters Koufax did, his stat line would look like this. 35-0 0.00 era maybee 20-24 K/9 on prob 110 pitches

You can though. I know your position that players from the past aren't as good as players today and you know I disagree with that premise. There's plenty of evidence suggesting otherwise and evolution just doesn't work that quickly.

I'm afraid we've reached an impasse. I'll just say that what Koufax did was more impressive to me than what deGrom has done and that isn't to take anything away from deGrom's greatness. At some point quantity matters.

[Skipscards]

Originally Posted by jlzinck

Bold Still in.
Blue still possible
Red No Bleeping way.

But then I never thought CC Sabathia had a HOF career as a follower of Baseball since 1972 so who knows

To be fair, I think that was my original list from 5 years ago. Even if you're right, it's still a pretty solid list.

Greinke is definitely getting in. I think it's too early to rule out Trea Turner and Bo Bichette. And as sure as I was about MadBum at the time, he flopped in Arizona about as hard as Kris Bryant did in Colorado.

[johnlocke36]

Originally Posted by Skipscards

I'm afraid we've reached an impasse. I'll just say that what Koufax did was more impressive to me than what deGrom has done and that isn't to take anything away from deGrom's greatness. At some point quantity matters.

Just to be clear, I very much agree with this. Koufax is far more deserving of the HOF than degrom and it’s not close.

My only contention is peak DeGrom is > peak Koufax and that counts for something when it comes time for people that watched DeGrom pitch to vote. There’s also just a real
Chance DeGrom rips off a Cy young this year or next and then conversation is moot