Your 2025 AL MVP will be....?

[SaveMeTheGum]

Here's an even better comp for this year. Manny had a better argument for MVP in 1999 than Judge has this year, but Pudge still won it. Even without the 60 HRs. Catchers just count more.

[Nostalgia]

Originally Posted by SaveMeTheGum

Here's an even better comp for this year. Manny had a better argument for MVP in 1999 than Judge has this year, but Pudge still won it. Even without the 60 HRs. Catchers just count more.

No.

The gap between Cal and Judge is wider than Pudge and Manny. Also Pudge was by far the best defensive catcher in the game then. Raleigh is not. Pudge didnt DH. 144 at C and just 1 at DH.

Judge's slash lines are better than Manny's, especially the OPS+

Manny's RBI's were nuts then....but back then everyone was doing this (5 players with 140+ that year).

NOW no one is doing what Judge does.....combo of BA and Power....OPS+ of 214

[Tim]

Originally Posted by SaveMeTheGum

Here's an even better comp for this year. Manny had a better argument for MVP in 1999 than Judge has this year

He absolutely did not.

[JRX]

Originally Posted by Nostalgia

No.

The gap between Cal and Judge is wider than Pudge and Manny. Also Pudge was by far the best defensive catcher in the game then. Raleigh is not. Pudge didnt DH. 144 at C and just 1 at DH.

Judge's slash lines are better than Manny's, especially the OPS+

Manny's RBI's were nuts then....but back then everyone was doing this (5 players with 140+ that year).

NOW no one is doing what Judge does.....combo of BA and Power....OPS+ of 214

Judge is almost as far from Manny in OPS+ than he was from Pudge, let that sink in.

[Nostalgia]

Originally Posted by JRX

Judge is almost as far from Manny in OPS+ than he was from Pudge, let that sink in.

*ahead of

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by JoshMN

I disagree. The rules were written back in 1931, after all, when they didn't have WAR and other fancy schmancy stats to directly compare overall value between players regardless of games played. More games played meant more valuable, especially for a catcher. The games played criteria was a big party of the story with the old timey voters who based their vote mostly on narrative with perhaps only a smattering of stats.

Some of the new-timey voters are actually old-timey voters.

But starting pitchers were literally being voted on for MVP from the start:

1931: Lefty Grove (AL)
1933: Carl Hubbell (NL)
1934: Dizzy Dean (NL)
1936: Carl Hubbell (NL)
1939: Bucky Walters (NL)

As for the position players, here are the games-played rankings of the earliest MVP winners (based on league ranking):

1931:
NL: Frankie Frisch -- 131 games -- 27th

1932:
NL: Chuck Klein -- 154 games -- 1st
AL: Jimmie Foxx -- 154 games -- 2nd

1933:
AL: Jimmie Foxx -- 149 games -- 12th

1934:
AL: Mickey Cochrane -- 129 games -- 32nd

1935:
NL: Gabby Hartnett -- 116 games -- 50th
AL: Hank Greenberg -- 152 games -- 3rd

1936:
AL: Lou Gehrig -- 155 games -- 1st

1937:
NL: Joe Medwick -- 156 games -- 1st
AL: Charlie Gehringer -- 144 games -- 24th

1938:
NL: Ernie Lombardi -- 129 games -- 38th
AL: Jimmie Foxx -- 149 games -- 11th

1939:
AL: Joe DiMaggio -- 120 games -- 40th

Average number of games played: 141 games

Average games-played ranking: 18th


Aaron Judge's games-played AL ranking in 2025: 27th (a lot more players in the league now)

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by atk825

That's...not how weighted stats work. Judge is 101% better than your average RF...Raleigh is 68% better than your average catcher.

I'm confused -- weighted just refers to the run value applied to each event -- for example, 1B, 2B, 3B, HR, BB.

Did you mean the league and park adjustment that the plus symbol (+) refers to?

[JoshMN]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

But starting pitchers were literally being voted on for MVP from the start:

1931: Lefty Grove (AL)
1933: Carl Hubbell (NL)
1934: Dizzy Dean (NL)
1936: Carl Hubbell (NL)
1939: Bucky Walters (NL)

As for the position players, here are the games-played rankings of the earliest MVP winners (based on league ranking):

1931:
NL: Frankie Frisch -- 131 games -- 27th

1932:
NL: Chuck Klein -- 154 games -- 1st
AL: Jimmie Foxx -- 154 games -- 2nd

1933:
AL: Jimmie Foxx -- 149 games -- 12th

1934:
AL: Mickey Cochrane -- 129 games -- 32nd

1935:
NL: Gabby Hartnett -- 116 games -- 50th
AL: Hank Greenberg -- 152 games -- 3rd

1936:
AL: Lou Gehrig -- 155 games -- 1st

1937:
NL: Joe Medwick -- 156 games -- 1st
AL: Charlie Gehringer -- 144 games -- 24th

1938:
NL: Ernie Lombardi -- 129 games -- 38th
AL: Jimmie Foxx -- 149 games -- 11th

1939:
AL: Joe DiMaggio -- 120 games -- 40th

Average number of games played: 141 games

Average games-played ranking: 18th


Aaron Judge's games-played AL ranking in 2025: 27th (a lot more players in the league now)

I can see why most people respond to you with a (or worse)...being intentionally stubborn and obtuse is not a good way to engage people generally... however, I appreciate that you are around nonetheless. BO would be a lot more boring without people like you. The threads would certainly be shorter...

[ThoseBackPages]

[atk825]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

I'm confused -- weighted just refers to the run value applied to each event -- for example, 1B, 2B, 3B, HR, BB.

Did you mean the league and park adjustment that the plus symbol (+) refers to?

Yah, you are correct. Adjusted.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by Nostalgia

Why didnt Mike Piazza win MVP? Guy should have won a few. His teams were very good and his stats were HOF worthy? And he played the most grueling position. .362 with 40 home runs and 124 RBI’s with a 8.6 war, and he couldn’t win?!? I guess he wasn’t a gold glove catcher. They should have taken the taxing of his body by playing catcher into account.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Because he was considered a bad defensive catcher -- basically, a bat-first catcher, unlike Pudge Rodriguez. He had a weak arm and consistently allowed the most stolen bases in the league and had a bad caught-stealing percentage.

His best shot at MVP was in 1997, when he hit .362, but the Dodgers collapsed late in the season to the Giants and missed the playoffs, while Larry Walker also put up epic numbers.

Even when accounting for pre-humidor Coors, Walker's numbers were somehow better overall than Piazza's:

Overall numbers -- 1997:
Larry Walker: .366/.452/.720, 49 HR, 33 SB, 130 RBI, 178 OPS+, 9.8 bWAR
Mike Piazza: 362/.431/.638, 40 HR, 5 SB, 124 RBI, 185 OPS+, 8.7 bWAR

Road stats -- 1997:
Larry Walker: .346/.443/.733, 29 HR
Mike Piazza: .368/.431/.643, 18 HR (4 at Coors Field)

Walker also won the Gold Glove Award that year -- he was just a better overall player than Piazza that season.

[Tallguy1991]

Why isn’t anyone mentioning the fact that T-Mobile (formerly Safeco) field is the hardest ballpark to hit in out of all 32 in MLB? There’s a persuasive case that T-Mobile has a more pronounced negative impact on hitters, especially concerning flyball carry, than Coors Field has a positive impact.

https://www.mlb.com/amp/news/seattle...-analysis.html


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[fulltritty]

Originally Posted by Tallguy1991

Why isn’t anyone mentioning the fact that T-Mobile (formerly Safeco) field is the hardest ballpark to hit in out of all 32 in MLB? There’s a persuasive case that T-Mobile has a more pronounced negative impact on hitters, especially concerning flyball carry, than Coors Field has a positive impact.

https://www.mlb.com/amp/news/seattle...-analysis.html


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Maybe because Cal has hit 4 more homeruns away from home and others have already disproved this argument about homeruns there vs Yankee Stadium for Judge.

Judge has also hit 3 more homeruns away from Yankee Stadium and one taken away at Steinbrenner Field.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by JoshMN

I can see why most people respond to you with a (or worse)...being intentionally stubborn and obtuse is not a good way to engage people generally... however, I appreciate that you are around nonetheless. BO would be a lot more boring without people like you. The threads would certainly be shorter...

You said the voters originally used games played as a way to measure a player's value in a given season. And that the voting instructions for MVP referenced games-played for that same reason. Yet, the numbers don't support that assertion -- Joe DiMaggio won the MVP Award in 1939 by only playing in 120 games, for example.

It seems more likely that the reference to games played in the rules just refers to a need to determine if a player played a sufficient number of games to be considered for the award -- if they played enough games to qualify.

[Tallguy1991]

Originally Posted by fulltritty

Maybe because Cal has hit 4 more homeruns away from home and others have already disproved this argument about homeruns there vs Yankee Stadium for Judge.

There’s not really a way to disprove the argument….the stats are what they are. The marine air in Seattle really does hurt home run carry. Judge plays half his games in an environment that is statistically notably easier to homer in than where Raleigh plays half his games. I’m sure someone with more time than me could look at the splits for all the stadiums and see how they’ve both fared in each….but to me Raleigh’s production while predominately playing catcher is more valuable than Judge’s performance this year. If you’d asked me 30-60 days ago I would have said judge was the MVP. But Raleigh crossing 60 and passing Griffey while catching every day is a more impressive season. It’s a subjective opinion and everyone will have their own take, that’s why there’s so many replies in this thread


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[fulltritty]

Originally Posted by Tallguy1991

There’s not really a way to disprove the argument….the stats are what they are. The marine air in Seattle really does hurt home run carry. Judge plays half his games in an environment that is statistically notably easier to homer in than where Raleigh plays half his games. I’m sure someone with more time than me could look at the splits for all the stadiums and see how they’ve both fared in each….but to me Raleigh’s production while predominately playing catcher is more valuable than Judge’s performance this year. If you’d asked me 30-60 days ago I would have said judge was the MVP. But Raleigh crossing 60 and passing Griffey while catching every day is a more impressive season. It’s a subjective opinion and everyone will have their own take, that’s why there’s so many replies in this thread


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm only doing this for Judge. Someone else can do it for Cal:

Pittsburgh: 1
Baltimore: 3
Oakland: 2
Seattle: 1
Colorado: 2
LA Dodgers: 3
Kansas City: 2
Boston: 3
Cincinnati: 1
Toronto: 2
NY Mets: 2
Atlanta: 1
St. Louis: 1
Tampa: 1 (we know this should be 2 )
Chicago White Sox: 2

Hopefully I didn't miss one.

[cnewby]

Aaron Judge

[fulltritty]

Clutch homerun from Judge there to give the Yankees the lead again.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by Tallguy1991

Judge plays half his games in an environment that is statistically notably easier to homer in than where Raleigh plays half his games. I’m sure someone with more time than me could look at the splits for all the stadiums and see how they’ve both fared in each

Road numbers -- 2025:

Judge: .340/.466/.681, 1.147 OPS, 27 HR, 356 PA

Raleigh: .267/.380/.619, .999 OPS, 32 HR, 366 PA

[JoshMN]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

You said the voters originally used games played as a way to measure a player's value in a given season. And that the voting instructions for MVP referenced games-played for that same reason. Yet, the numbers don't support that assertion -- Joe DiMaggio won the MVP Award in 1939 by only playing in 120 games, for example.

It seems more likely that the reference to games played in the rules just refers to a need to determine if a player played a sufficient number of games to be considered for the award -- if they played enough games to qualify.

You can do better work than this, Fabio. I know you can. Games are the #2 criteria on that list…

In any case, Joe D played only 120 games in 1939 but the #2 person in the MVP voting only played 4 more games than that. The rest of the outliers are catchers mostly and there was no DH in the 1930s… you are essentially proving my point… Otherwise they would just list the number of games required to be eligible for MVP, or specifically indicate which players were eligible like they do for the HOF.

[blackbears86]

Originally Posted by fulltritty

Clutch homerun from Judge there to give the Yankees the lead again.

YUP.


Like he's been all year. Delivering big hits and being solid.

[Above the Rim]

Something I came across:

Positional Adjustment for WAR

Catcher +12.5 runs
Shortstop +7.5 runs
Centerfield +2.5 runs
Right & Leftfield -7.5 runs
1st Base -12.5 runs

Not sure what this really means when applied to Cal Raleigh & Aaron Judge, but you get the idea how important and valuable a good catcher is.

[ThoseBackPages]

imma write in Soto

[dodgerfanjohn]

Roki shut that mvp chant down right quick.

[Tallguy1991]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

Road numbers -- 2025:

Judge: .340/.466/.681, 1.147 OPS, 27 HR, 356 PA

Raleigh: .267/.380/.619, .999 OPS, 32 HR, 366 PA

Tbh if you put a gun to my head and forced me to choose based on just these away splits I would probably choose Raleigh. I have no skin in the game, I’m a lifelong Red Sox fan-I just think that getting that kind of production from a catcher is worth the trade. The only stat where judge has a decisive advantage is batting average, but that is somewhat inflated due to his high BB total (which is why AB is a better metric to use than PA in that comparison). As of right now’s home/away splits judge has 96 hits on the road to Raleigh’s 82, but Raleigh has more RBIs and once again plays a position with significantly more positional value. FWIW in games played this year in Seattle, which is the hardest place to homer in the big leagues, Raleigh has 28 hr and 62 RBI to Judge’s 24 and 53 at Yankee stadium, which is the third easiest place to hit bombs in the bigs (metric used is HR factor by baseball savant). Raleigh producing like that in a nightmarish park for hitters while playing catcher is more impressive to me than what judge has done this season both home and away, especially given the fact that judge has DH’ed 56 times so far this year. Raleigh has played 33 percent more games in the field than Judge at a far tougher position and he’s leading the league in games played at catcher as well as PO (not to mention his MLB leading 60+ bombs and 125+ RBI.) Judge also has completely stopped playing center field-if he took his 92 starts in CF instead of RF there wouldn’t be nearly as wide a gap in positional value. As noted above, WAR positional adjustments for catcher are +12.5 vs -7.5 for RF and -17.5 for DH. That is a huge spread.