8 Players on Contemporary Era HOF ballot announced.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by JustinVerlander07

With this logic why on earth did they let Baines in?

That was obviously cronyism -- he had multiple influential friends on the committee when he got voted in. I'm just saying this time the committee did its job correctly -- Murphy, Mattingly, Bonds, Clemens and Sheffield were not overlooked by the writers.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by Skipscards

Do tell. The committee is supposed to be a safety net for players overlooked by the writers. Otherwise, they would be applying different standards to candidates than the writers, which shouldn't be the case.

No one can claim Mattingly or Murphy were overlooked by the writers. And we know why Bonds, Clemens and Sheffield were not voted in by the writers.

[49ersSF]

Originally Posted by Skipscards

You've already lost your argument when you decided to use awful Star Wars to justify your position.

[Retired hobbist]

Originally Posted by rats60

2031 will be their last time on the ballot. After they get less than 5 votes again, they won't be eligible to appear on another Hall of Fame ballot. The Hall of Fame doesn't want steroid users. The players they cheated don't want steroid users in the HOF. Gen Z doesn't matter. Shoeless Joe Jackson has been waiting 90 years and he's still not in.

I think they will eventually reconsider their cases but the generation of players and rules committee members will be in urns, pine boxes or in rocking chairs mumbling about child hood memories while sitting at an old folks home.

It's a total joke that PED guys are in the hall but Bonds and Clemens aren't in and it looks like Sheffield might sneak into the hall but admitted he "unknowingly" ingested steroids through lollipops and lozenges.

[fabiani12333]

Jeff Kent is 22nd in JAWS score for 2B. He has the record for most home runs of any second baseman, and his 123 OPS+ is 10th-highest all-time for the position (minimum 8,000 PA). He won an MVP and was selected to 5 All Star games.

Mattingly is 40th in JAWS score for 1B. He is 71st in home runs and only had a career 127 OPS+, which is tied with Alvin Davis.

Murphy is 27th in JAWS score for CF. He is 9th in home runs and his 121 OPS+ is tied with Matt Kemp.

[ThoseBackPages]

what a joke

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by rats60

2031 will be their last time on the ballot. After they get less than 5 votes again, they won't be eligible to appear on another Hall of Fame ballot. The Hall of Fame doesn't want steroid users. The players they cheated don't want steroid users in the HOF. Gen Z doesn't matter. Shoeless Joe Jackson has been waiting 90 years and he's still not in.

There are already players inducted who used steroids -- even guys who played prior to the so-called steroid era. Players were using steroids in the 70s and 80s. So, it's already a lost cause.

The Hall specifically doesn't want Bonds or Clemens to get in -- they were made the faces of the steroid era and are being used as scapegoats for something that was widespread. The Hall of Fame board had to change the number of years of eligibility to 10 years from 15 to ensure they didn't get voted in.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by theshowandme

LOL at Hall of Fame PSA Set Registry folks...

They have to buy Jeff Kent cards

I've noticed that his PSA 10-graded 1992 Fleer Update cards command a strong price -- they've consistently sold around $200 for a half decade now, with a current population total of 146.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by Noles939913

Does Kent even have any pack pulled autos?

He has one on-card auto, I believe: 2001 SP Game Bat Milestone Edition Autographs Jeff Kent #S-JK

https://www.cardboardconnection.com/...baseball-cards

He has several sticker autos from his playing days, though.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by mfw13

Anybody who watched Kent play knows that he benefitted tremendously from hitting in front of Bonds.....which makes it rather hypocritical to elect Kent while refusing to elect Bonds.

Kent probably finishes with around 40 WAR without Bonds' PED use.....

Kent hit behind Bonds -- Bonds hit 3rd and Kent hit 4th.

This is surprising -- I thought Kent hit better with men on base, but nope:

Jeff Kent's career:

Nobody on base: .286/.343/.509, .852 OPS

Men on base: .294/.368/.490, .858 OPS

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by theshowandme

Cliff Floyd asked Kent last night what changed in his approach in 1997-1999 when the homers and RBI started to come in bunches.

This dude really said he started choking up on the bat 1/4 of an inch for better bat control…

That is so funny to me

I hope one day Bonds is able to admit it to the world and then exposes everybody as well.

He was a good hitter before joining the Giants, but he made a very noticeable mechanical adjustment right before joining them:

The biggest adjustment has been altering his stance. After
getting jettisoned by the Indians, he had an epiphany in his
garage. "I was lifting weights and wondering why I was having so
much trouble driving the ball," he says. "I thought of the way
[Seattle's] Edgar Martinez holds his bat, and it dawned on me--I'm
holding mine too low! If I held my hands higher, I would swing
directly down on the ball." Instead of almost resting on his
shoulder, Kent's bat now fairly hovers over his head.

https://vault.si.com/vault/1999/02/1...t-his-position

If you watch videos of him before his first season with the Giants in 1997, his hands were much lower in his batting stance. He was already a 20-home-run hitter with the Mets, but raising his hands allowed him to unlock even more power.

[Skipscards]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

Do tell. The committee is supposed to be a safety net for players overlooked by the writers. Otherwise, they would be applying different standards to candidates than the writers, which shouldn't be the case.

No one can claim Mattingly or Murphy were overlooked by the writers. And we know why Bonds, Clemens and Sheffield were not voted in by the writers.

Kent was the most deserving of the candidates with no PED association. - He was deserving, he was not the most deserving.

The committee's purpose is to identify and elect those who were overlooked by the writers. - This is not the committee’s purpose. The committee’s actual purpose is to consider players, managers, executives, and umpires for the Hall of Fame. The committee doesn’t identify the candidates, that’s done separately before the committee even gets in the room. Overlooked has zero to do with their purpose. Some of the people they consider were never even eligible for the BBWAA ballot. The people they elect are Hall of Famers like everyone else. You make it sound like these were castoffs and the Era Committee is some sort of diminished status. It is not.

Kent -- like Fred McGriff before him -- fit that description the most. His numbers and accomplishments make him deserving, but he was overshadowed by the many players with PED association. - Kent was not overshadowed. He played in the era, he hit more HRs than any 2nd baseman ever. His numbers and accomplishments are absolutely Hall of Fame worthy, but he had neither the best numbers nor was he the most accomplished on that ballot.

Murphy and Mattingly were not overlooked by the writers -- they were widely viewed as great players during their prime who didn't have the longevity or consistency needed to make them Hall-worthy. - Again, overlooked has nothing to do with it. Like every player considered on an Era Committee ballot who was considered by the BBWAA, they failed to reach the 75% minimum. That’s all, no more no less. They had plenty of longevity. Murphy played 18 seasons and Mattingly played 14. There are Hall of Famers with less longevity. What they lack are career totals that measure to the PED era. Murphy had more Total Bases than any player in the 1980s, every eligible player in history not currently on a ballot who led a decade in TB is in the Hall except Murphy. He hit the 5th most HRs during his 18 year career…the other 4 are all HOFers. The next 18 seasons after his retirement, if you add up the HR totals of the top 5, they hit 760 more HRs than the top 5 during Murphy’s career. That’s more than Hank Aaron hit in his career. That’s why he’s not in the Hall of Fame. As for consistency, there wasn’t a more consistent player than Dale Murphy. He played every day (760 games in a row at one point) and hit 36 HR with 100 RBIs seemingly every season. In 1982: 36 HRs & 109 RBI, 1983: 36 HRs & 121 RBI, 1984: 36 HR & 100 RBI, 1985: 37 HR & 111 RBI. And though he dropped to 29 HR & 83 RBI in 1986, he compensated in 1987 with 44 HR & 105 RBI. That’s an average of 36 HRs and 105 RBIs. There’s rarely been a more consistent run than that in baseball history.

Delgado isn't on the same level as Kent -- he wasn't considered the best at his position during his prime. - Delgado was on the same level as Kent. He has a better OBP, better SLG, a better OPS+, hit more HRs, and was better in the Post Season. Also, every eligible player who hit more HRs than Delgado is in the Hall of Fame unless they “enhanced their performance”. And for his prime, Delgado was arguably the best 1st baseman in the game, certainly in the AL.

[ReggieBush22]

The HOF voting has become an utter joke at this point.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by Skipscards

Kent was the most deserving of the candidates with no PED association. - He was deserving, he was not the most deserving.

The committee's purpose is to identify and elect those who were overlooked by the writers. - This is not the committee’s purpose. The committee’s actual purpose is to consider players, managers, executives, and umpires for the Hall of Fame. The committee doesn’t identify the candidates, that’s done separately before the committee even gets in the room. Overlooked has zero to do with their purpose. Some of the people they consider were never even eligible for the BBWAA ballot. The people they elect are Hall of Famers like everyone else. You make it sound like these were castoffs and the Era Committee is some sort of diminished status. It is not.

Kent -- like Fred McGriff before him -- fit that description the most. His numbers and accomplishments make him deserving, but he was overshadowed by the many players with PED association. - Kent was not overshadowed. He played in the era, he hit more HRs than any 2nd baseman ever. His numbers and accomplishments are absolutely Hall of Fame worthy, but he had neither the best numbers nor was he the most accomplished on that ballot.

Murphy and Mattingly were not overlooked by the writers -- they were widely viewed as great players during their prime who didn't have the longevity or consistency needed to make them Hall-worthy. - Again, overlooked has nothing to do with it. Like every player considered on an Era Committee ballot who was considered by the BBWAA, they failed to reach the 75% minimum. That’s all, no more no less. They had plenty of longevity. Murphy played 18 seasons and Mattingly played 14. There are Hall of Famers with less longevity. What they lack are career totals that measure to the PED era. Murphy had more Total Bases than any player in the 1980s, every eligible player in history not currently on a ballot who led a decade in TB is in the Hall except Murphy. He hit the 5th most HRs during his 18 year career…the other 4 are all HOFers. The next 18 seasons after his retirement, if you add up the HR totals of the top 5, they hit 760 more HRs than the top 5 during Murphy’s career. That’s more than Hank Aaron hit in his career. That’s why he’s not in the Hall of Fame. As for consistency, there wasn’t a more consistent player than Dale Murphy. He played every day (760 games in a row at one point) and hit 36 HR with 100 RBIs seemingly every season. In 1982: 36 HRs & 109 RBI, 1983: 36 HRs & 121 RBI, 1984: 36 HR & 100 RBI, 1985: 37 HR & 111 RBI. And though he dropped to 29 HR & 83 RBI in 1986, he compensated in 1987 with 44 HR & 105 RBI. That’s an average of 36 HRs and 105 RBIs. There’s rarely been a more consistent run than that in baseball history.

Delgado isn't on the same level as Kent -- he wasn't considered the best at his position during his prime. - Delgado was on the same level as Kent. He has a better OBP, better SLG, a better OPS+, hit more HRs, and was better in the Post Season. Also, every eligible player who hit more HRs than Delgado is in the Hall of Fame unless they “enhanced their performance”. And for his prime, Delgado was arguably the best 1st baseman in the game, certainly in the AL.

Who was the most deserving?


When the Contemporary Era Committee looks at players, it is looking at players who were passed over by the writers. Every player they vote on has already been voted on by the writers:


Murphy was on the ballot for the full 15 years and maxed out at 23.2%.

Mattingly was also on the ballot for the full 15 years and maxed out at 28.2%.

Delgado was on the ballot one year and received 3.8%.

Kent was on the ballot for the full 10 years and maxed out at 46.5%.

Based on the ballot voting results, the most likely candidate for the Hall of Fame was Kent. He debuted on the ballot in 2014 with 14 other current Hall of Famers and was overshadowed during and after his career by players with PED associations. He did not have a good relationship with the media, which is what led to him not having strong support from the writers who voted for the Hall of Fame.


Jeff Kent's peak (1997-2002) -- rankings for 2B (minimum 2,000 PA -- 29 players):
HR: 1
BA: 3
OBP: 5
SLG: 1
wRC+: 1
fWAR: 1


Carlos Delgado's peak (1998-2003) -- rankings for 1B (minimum 2,000 PA -- 37 players)
HR: 3
BA: 8
OBP: 5
SLG: 4
wRC+: 4
fWAR: 4

Kent was the best second baseman in MLB during his peak, while Delgado was one of the best first baseman.

[49ersSF]

Originally Posted by ReggieBush22

The HOF voting has become an utter joke at this point.

It would be a joke if they simply inducted players based on the feelings of middle-aged/senior fans who continue to live on the memories of their youth, ignoring all facts and reason.

[PuddleMonkey]

Originally Posted by 49ersSF

It would be a joke if they simply inducted players based on the feelings of middle-aged/senior fans who continue to live on the memories of their youth, ignoring all facts and reason.

Harold Baines


Checkmate

[49ersSF]

Originally Posted by PuddleMonkey

Harold Baines


Checkmate

No doubt the HoF has made its share of mistakes.

[awz50]

Originally Posted by ReggieBush22

The HOF voting has become an utter joke at this point.

This will continue to be said year and year with people screaming "But look Harold Baines" like he is batman. If the hall is such a joke why pay attention or care? Kent was the unpopular decision this year but a fine one.

[carlo16]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

He was a good hitter before joining the Giants, but he made a very noticeable mechanical adjustment right before joining them:


https://vault.si.com/vault/1999/02/1...t-his-position

If you watch videos of him before his first season with the Giants in 1997, his hands were much lower in his batting stance. He was already a 20-home-run hitter with the Mets, but raising his hands allowed him to unlock even more power.

Guess that’s it. You proved launch angle wrong and the steroid era can be boiled down to backspin.

[JustinVerlander07]

Originally Posted by awz50

This will continue to be said year and year with people screaming "But look Harold Baines" like he is batman. If the hall is such a joke why pay attention or care? Kent was the unpopular decision this year but a fine one.

Would you prefer for people to mention Jack Morris instead? This veterans committee stuff is nonsense. They don't vote in the guys they should, they vote in hall of very good players.

[2010GBPackers]

Originally Posted by JustinVerlander07

Would you prefer for people to mention Jack Morris instead? This veterans committee stuff is nonsense. They don't vote in the guys they should, they vote in hall of very good players.

I'm still mad the Veterans (Eras) Committee hasn't put Curt Flood in yet. He should have been on this year's ballot. Now he has to wait until 2028, I think.

[theshowandme]

Originally Posted by 2010GBPackers

I'm still mad the Veterans (Eras) Committee hasn't put Curt Flood in yet. He should have been on this year's ballot. Now he has to wait until 2028, I think.

This year focused on players who made the bulk of their contributions to baseball post-1980

Flood retired in 1971

[Handsome Wes]

...

My wife once asked me what I would save if my house was burning to down. First (obviously) would be "the kids" and second is "our dogs." I have a small box of portable hard drives that serve as a backup to the computers, so that's probably third.

In the same trip that I would take to grab those hard drives? I'd definitely grab my baseball card albums (they're in the same room, fwiw, and it's right by the garage, so it's not like I'm really risking my life to grab them).

I have three albums dedicated solely to Baseball Hall of Famers. 99% of them are Topps base (or update) set. I *think* I have every card of every player since the 1980 set, and probably maybe 70% of them since 1970 (obviously the numbers go down the farther back I go). This collection includes the last Topps card of every player, stretching from the 2019 CC Sabathia all the way back to the 1951 Bobby Doerr.

I say all of this to say that I care very deeply about the Hall of Fame.

And so, it frustrates me to see baseball fans (accurately!) moan about the Hall of Fame - in both directions. It's too big! It's too small! Too many of the right people are left out! Too many of the wrong people have been put in!

And what happens with every passing day is that the love of fans grows just a bit colder. They care just a bit less. Plenty have stopped caring at all... and it seems as if the Hall of Fame is just content to let this happen. At a time when they are slipping further into irrelevance, they are putting ice on the sidewalk.

And that's a dang shame.

For me, I've started curating a fourth album. The ones who make it into *my* Hall of Fame, even if they are denied entry to the one in Cooperstown.

And if there was a burning fire, I'd save that one, too.

Maybe that's good enough.

[erock28]

Originally Posted by Handsome Wes

...

My wife once asked me what I would save if my house was burning to down. First (obviously) would be "the kids" and second is "our dogs." I have a small box of portable hard drives that serve as a backup to the computers, so that's probably third.

In the same trip that I would take to grab those hard drives? I'd definitely grab my baseball card albums (they're in the same room, fwiw, and it's right by the garage, so it's not like I'm really risking my life to grab them).

I have three albums dedicated solely to Baseball Hall of Famers. 99% of them are Topps base (or update) set. I *think* I have every card of every player since the 1980 set, and probably maybe 70% of them since 1970 (obviously the numbers go down the farther back I go). This collection includes the last Topps card of every player, stretching from the 2019 CC Sabathia all the way back to the 1951 Bobby Doerr.

I say all of this to say that I care very deeply about the Hall of Fame.

And so, it frustrates me to see baseball fans (accurately!) moan about the Hall of Fame - in both directions. It's too big! It's too small! Too many of the right people are left out! Too many of the wrong people have been put in!

And what happens with every passing day is that the love of fans grows just a bit colder. They care just a bit less. Plenty have stopped caring at all... and it seems as if the Hall of Fame is just content to let this happen. At a time when they are slipping further into irrelevance, they are putting ice on the sidewalk.

And that's a dang shame.

For me, I've started curating a fourth album. The ones who make it into *my* Hall of Fame, even if they are denied entry to the one in Cooperstown.

And if there was a burning fire, I'd save that one, too.

Maybe that's good enough.

Pretty good take. As it relates to the Hall, I think I've personally gone through all the emotions. Anger/frustration with Rich Gossage and Jack Morris getting in. Mix of anger and laughter at Harold Baines getting in. Total joy when childhood favorite Ted Simmons got in (though I'd definitely call him a HOVGooder as a smaller Hall guy). Today the selections don't bother me, as at the end of the day, the Hall is still a VERY exclusive club. Roughly 1% of players are in it. I think the writers and the selection format is a joke, as do most, but the Hall itself is still something I care about. I wouldn't have voted for Jeff Kent, I wouldn't vote for Andruw Jones...but those guys don't lessen the prestige of the Hall. And again, I'm a smaller Hall guy. The issue I have is the consistency. Kent gets in but Lou Whitaker sits? Jim Rice but no Dwight Evans? Tony Oliva but no Mattingly or Murphy? To that last one, I'm confident eventually Mattingly and Murphy will make it, as Oliva's peak was pretty impressive, but will they also have to wait 46 years after their career ended to get enshrined?

[Scottish Punk]

Originally Posted by Handsome Wes

...

My wife once asked me what I would save if my house was burning to down. First (obviously) would be "the kids" and second is "our dogs." I have a small box of portable hard drives that serve as a backup to the computers, so that's probably third.

In the same trip that I would take to grab those hard drives? I'd definitely grab my baseball card albums (they're in the same room, fwiw, and it's right by the garage, so it's not like I'm really risking my life to grab them).

I have three albums dedicated solely to Baseball Hall of Famers. 99% of them are Topps base (or update) set. I *think* I have every card of every player since the 1980 set, and probably maybe 70% of them since 1970 (obviously the numbers go down the farther back I go). This collection includes the last Topps card of every player, stretching from the 2019 CC Sabathia all the way back to the 1951 Bobby Doerr.

I say all of this to say that I care very deeply about the Hall of Fame.

And so, it frustrates me to see baseball fans (accurately!) moan about the Hall of Fame - in both directions. It's too big! It's too small! Too many of the right people are left out! Too many of the wrong people have been put in!

And what happens with every passing day is that the love of fans grows just a bit colder. They care just a bit less. Plenty have stopped caring at all... and it seems as if the Hall of Fame is just content to let this happen. At a time when they are slipping further into irrelevance, they are putting ice on the sidewalk.

And that's a dang shame.

For me, I've started curating a fourth album. The ones who make it into *my* Hall of Fame, even if they are denied entry to the one in Cooperstown.

And if there was a burning fire, I'd save that one, too.

Maybe that's good enough.

Beautiful take Wes.

I think this is happening with all sports. Cynicism creeps into all facets when you get older. Salaries, gambling, players are brands, etc just makes professional sports more cold and less relatable to everyday people. All three of the HOF voting processes has its own issues.

I do the same thing as you. In my HOF RC graded box, in the end I have filled with "expected" or "should be" HOFers. Sometimes I can just take some of those and move them to the end of HOF section.