Baseball rules question

[bankdawg]

I've asked this question to several people including high school umpires and get mixed answers, about 50/50.

Here's the scenario:
Runners on 2nd and 3rd with 1 out. Batter hits a deep fly ball which is caught for out 2 and both runners tag up and advance(runner at 3rd scores, runner at 2nd advances to 3rd).

The team in the field appeals that the runner on 2nd left early and the umpire agrees calling the runner out for out number 3.

here's the question: Does the run count?

[warjohn]

The rule says:

If the third out is made during a play in which an appeal play is sustained on another runner, the appeal play decision takes precedence in determining the out.

I would say the run does not count.

[nateyad]

I would have to say the run doesn't count. Just because the runner on 2nd never techinically legally returned to 2nd base first.

[stera8]

Run does not count.

The only scenario that a run counts is if an error occurs on the last play, guy scores and then another guy gets throw out. Or if guy scores and the batter gets thrown out at 2nd trying to leg it out.


Not tagging up properly beats the run.

In short. The previous 2 responders are correct

[dhendrix1303]

Run doesn't count because the infraction occurred before the run scored, in my opinion.

[KennyWoo]

This actually came up at a district tournament game (determining who goes to the state high school tournament, so emotions were very high) I was doing play-by-play on about 15 years ago. Bases were loaded, home team down 1 in bottom of last inning. Fly ball to right. Runner on third tagged up, scored. Runner on second lost his mind never tagged up, put out at second after runner had scored. There was a 10-minute-plus conference (basically a near riot) and I'm on the microphone trying to call the action while in the meantime I'm polling the press box to see if anyone knows the rule.

The umpires, many of whom I knew and were top notch, came to the conclusion that because a runner being doubled off is not a force play and thus the run counted because it took place before the out was recorded.

On an appeal situation, the run would have (obviously) scored before the runner was put out. (If they'd thrown the ball immediately to the bag, it would depend on if the runner scored first.) Run would count, at least according to the umpires that day, and I trust that they were correct.

[MetDude]

4 different sources say the run counts and one of em is the rulebook.

Jim's Baseball Rules Answers Rule Myths December 20, 2012

ALL of the following statements are FALSE.
See the explanations and rule references.
23. It is a force out when a runner is called out for not tagging up on a fly ball.
27. No run can score when a runner is called out for the third out for not tagging up.

Explanations and Rule References

23. A force play is when a runner is forced to advance because the batter became a runner. When the batter is out on a caught fly, all forces are removed. An out on an a failure to tag-up, is NOT a force out. Any runs that cross the plate before this out will count. Rules: 2.00 FORCE PLAY, 4.09 Official Baseball Rules

27. Yes it can. This is not a force play. A force play is when a runner is forced to advance because the batter became a runner. When the batter is out on a caught fly, all forces are removed. An out on an a failure to tag-up, is NOT a force out. Any runs that cross the plate before this out will count.
Rules: 2.00 FORCE PLAY, 4.09, 7.10(a) Official Baseball Rules


Baseball Rules Myths
It is a force out when a runner is called out for not tagging up on a fly ball.

A force play is when a runner is forced to advance because the batter became a runner. When the batter is out on a caught fly, all forces are removed. An out on an a failure to tag-up, is NOT a force out. Any runs that cross the plate before this out will count.

Rules: 2.00 FORCE PLAY, 4.09
Official Baseball Rules

Tag up - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
When a baserunner fails to tag up on a caught fly ball (for instance, if they started running too early, thinking the ball wouldn't be caught), they may be "doubled off", which results in them being called out. To double a runner off, a fielder must touch the runner's starting base while in possession of the ball, before the runner returns to the base. If the baserunner appeared to tag up, but a fielder suspects the baserunner may have left the base too early (thus failing to legally tag up), the fielder may attempt to double the runner off by touching the runner's starting base while controlling the ball, before the next pitch is thrown. This is considered a type of appeal play.[3] If the umpire agrees that the runner did not retouch after the ball was touched by a fielder, the umpire will call the runner out, and anything else the runner did during the play (such as score a run) is negated. Doubling a runner off is considered a "time play" (as opposed to a force play), which means that even if the doubling-off is the third out of an inning, any runs which score before the double-off will count (unless the run was scored by the same runner that was doubled off, in which case the run will not count in any situation).

mlb rulebook. Rule 2.00 "definitions of terms"
Official Rules | MLB.com: Official info

A FORCE PLAY is a play in which a runner legally loses his right to occupy a base by reason of the batter becoming a runner.
Rule 2.00 (Force Play) Comment: Confusion regarding this play is removed by remembering that frequently the “force” situation is removed during the play. Example: Man on first, one out, ball hit sharply to first baseman who touches the bag and batter-runner is out. The force is removed at that moment and runner advancing to second must be tagged. If there had been a runner on third or second, and either of these runners scored before the tag-out at second, the run counts. Had the first baseman thrown to second and the ball then had been returned to first, the play at second was a force out, making two outs, and the return throw to first ahead of the runner would have made three outs. In that case, no run would score.

Example: Not a force out. One out. Runner on first and third. Batter flies out. Two out. Runner on third tags up and scores. Runner on first tries to retouch before throw from fielder reaches first baseman, but does not get back in time and is out. Three outs. If, in umpire’s judgment, the runner from third touched home before the ball was held at first base, the run counts.

[brewcrew8]

I'm pretty sure the run does count.

Came up in a Brewers game earlier this year where runners were at first and third and Rickie Weeks (at first) thought there were two outs and took off on contact. When the ball was caught Aramis Ramirez (at third) barley ran because he thought since it was a force at first the run wouldn't count if he scored. Apparently he was was wrong and if Ramirez touched home before the force was applied at first the run would have counted.

Since in this scenario the runner is not officially called out until after the runner touched home I believe the run would count even if the runner is called out on the appeal.

[briscogun]

I think MetDude has the gist of it above. The runner on 2nd is out in one of two ways if he leaves the base early: he's tagged out with the ball or the ball is thrown to the base and the fielder touches the bag. As long as the runner on 3rd tags up and crosses home plate prior to the appeal to 2nd actually being applied, I think he's right.

Great question, by the way! I love baseball odd rulebook scenarios! Keep them coming!

[ray34allen21]

Why would the umpire take advice from the fielders?

Thats like in basketball saying ref i was fouled and him giving you the call.