1997 Jordan PMG Green 1/10 up on eBay...

[Cubs_rock21]

.................for now

[Cubs_rock21]

Guys this 100% the real deal

[ninjacookies]

Originally Posted by SportsItUpCards

Who said that only ONE person, or group of people, are making the fakes??

Those fakes posted above look great! Just imagine what others are making that have not surfaced as being fake.......... The technology is here, period. Because one person is half bad at making them doesn't mean everyone is the same. There are people out there with the skills and technology to make them BETTER then what the card companies have done. It's just individuals out here with skills, and machinery. Period.

They've ruined the 90's inserts. They've ruined it for the true collectors who actually enjoyed, and still enjoy these cards.

PMG's won't ever be able to be replicated without being blatantly obviously fake (which is what this thread is obviously pointing to)

I agree that a lot of the other 90's inserts are already being faked at near 1:1, but that's bound to happen with anything as simple as simple cardboard with some ink photos on it. The real question is which one of the modern day cards will be faked, because that's the obvious next logical step...and probably already being done. Cards like Flawless and National Treasures will be beyond easy to replicate, since their design is as simplistic as can be. Toss in some fake jersey patches, and you have a real recipe for disaster.


Any 'hobby' or industry, for that matter, will always be subjected to fakes. Artwork, electronics, coins...nothing is immune. I think the real issue is that companies like PSA and BGS can't tell the difference, which is concerning. But there's really no way around the issue. Cardboard is cardboard.

[titletowncards]

Originally Posted by Cubs_rock21

It's legit, he goes to my LCS when I heard it was pulled I couldn't believe it! First time I've ever seen one of these. I guess he bought the boxes online...I worked today I was going to see it in person but couldn't make it in. The owner of the shop works for Psa they have way too much on the line to sell a fake of this caliber. They are awesome people and trust me they wouldn't think of putting this up if it were fake!

This is an awesome story!
Glad for this guy!

[Cubs_rock21]

...........edit for now

[SportsItUpCards]

Originally Posted by ninjacookies

PMG's won't ever be able to be replicated without being blatantly obviously fake (which is what this thread is obviously pointing to)

I agree that a lot of the other 90's inserts are already being faked at near 1:1, but that's bound to happen with anything as simple as simple cardboard with some ink photos on it. The real question is which one of the modern day cards will be faked, because that's the obvious next logical step...and probably already being done. Cards like Flawless and National Treasures will be beyond easy to replicate, since their design is as simplistic as can be. Toss in some fake jersey patches, and you have a real recipe for disaster.


Any 'hobby' or industry, for that matter, will always be subjected to fakes. Artwork, electronics, coins...nothing is immune. I think the real issue is that companies like PSA and BGS can't tell the difference, which is concerning. But there's really no way around the issue. Cardboard is cardboard.

Panini stuff are not being shilled for 250k, YET......... So no need to worry about that. PMG is vein discussed here, not Panini.

When things are pumped to the heights these cards were/are, then it's more than worth it to the con artists to replicate. If people can replicate $10 bills, believe me they'll replicate these cards...

[ninjacookies]

Originally Posted by SportsItUpCards

Panini stuff are not being shilled for 250k, YET......... So no need to worry about that. PMG is vein discussed here, not Panini.

When things are pumped to the heights these cards were/are, then it's more than worth it to the con artists to replicate. If people can replicate $10 bills, believe me they'll replicate these cards...

I think it's worth it if they can turn a profit.

You can't tell me they'd turn down the opportunity to make $300+ a pop to replicate a flawless diamond base card or a base national treasures 1/1 century card. They could pump those out like there's no tomorrow (for cards that haven't surfaced yet). There's huge money to be made faking all sorts of cards.

[SportsItUpCards]

Originally Posted by ninjacookies

I think it's worth it if they can turn a profit.

You can't tell me they'd turn down the opportunity to make $300+ a pop to replicate a flawless diamond base card or a base national treasures 1/1 century card. They could pump those out like there's no tomorrow (for cards that haven't surfaced yet). There's huge money to be made faking all sorts of cards.

Panini has nothing to do with this thread...

PMG's and 90's inserts being faked for a FACT.

Until there is another thread made about Panini, and the cards are actually proven to have fakes made, then we can talk.

[ninjacookies]

Originally Posted by SportsItUpCards

Panini has nothing to do with this thread...

PMG's and 90's inserts being faked for a FACT.

Until there is another thread made about Panini, and the cards are actually proven to have fakes made, then we can talk.

Lol why even turn this into a Panini vs. ____ debate anyways? The card in the OP is obviously real, which was the subject at hand. Yes, 90's cards have been faked, but basically any 'simple design' card can be faked...and most likely already has been. Just because a Panini card hasn't been caught as a fake, doesn't mean they don't exist. Whole different side story though.

Congrats to the guy who pulled this card. I'd be jumping up and down eternally like a schoolgirl. Damn. Sell it offline to a high profile asian collector and have them come fly down and pick it up for cash under the table.

Winrar.

[SportsItUpCards]

Originally Posted by ninjacookies

Lol why even turn this into a Panini vs. ____ debate anyways? The card in the OP is obviously real, which was the subject at hand. Yes, 90's cards have been faked, but basically any 'simple design' card can be faked...and most likely already has been. Just because a Panini card hasn't been caught as a fake, doesn't mean they don't exist. Whole different side story though.

Congrats to the guy who pulled this card. I'd be jumping up and down eternally like a schoolgirl. Damn. Sell it offline to a high profile asian collector and have them come fly down and pick it up for cash under the table.

Winrar.

Well you made it into a Panini vs. _____ discussion, not me.

Back to post # 106 of this thread to get your answer...

[the27guy]

Guys I want to believe. I really do. I hope it's real. But for all that talk earlier in the thread about the faked rubies looking nothing like the real ones do yourself a favor and read this...
HobbyKings.com :: View topic - 1998 skybox thunder rave / 150

I am far from buying this story. Where did he get the box? Did anyone see him open it?

The fact that it has defect similarities to th originals is good, but that doesn't mean it's real. Though I really hope it is.

[ninjacookies]

Originally Posted by SportsItUpCards

Well you made it into a Panini vs. _____ discussion, not me.

Back to post # 106 of this thread to get your answer...

I'm not singling out Panini. I just countered your statement by saying NO company or card or era of card is safe. Toss UD and Topps in there too, just for kicks.

This really doesn't have much to do with '90's era' inserts more than it has to do with the player Michael Jordan. They're obviously targeting Jordan in particular because he has such a cult following everywhere, most particularly Asia. I'm sure his Exquisite base cards will be next. And if he had a Panini card, it would have already been done. And now they're moving on to...Kobe. After that, I'm sure Lebron is next..if he hasn't already been.


I will loathe the day I see a perfect replica Topps chrome card. That opens up Pandora's Box for pretty much most of the past 20 years of the hobby to crumble.


Also, who mentioned Japan earlier? China and Taiwan are the mecca of counterfeits, and I'm 90% sure that's where they're being designed and made. And their lax legislation makes it a safe haven for these guys.

[the27guy]

Ninja cookies, did you look at my link?

Riddle me this.... In the past 8 months we've seen counterfeiters successfully dupe bgs into grading skybox rubies, raves, a cut aboves, bmocs and other cards that would seem very difficult to reproduce..... And now outta the blue, a guy pulls the freaking 1/10 pmg green mj........

How in the world is everyone buying this? What am I missing?

[ninjacookies]

Originally Posted by the27guy

Guys I want to believe. I really do. I hope it's real. But for all that talk earlier in the thread about the faked rubies looking nothing like the real ones do yourself a favor and read this...
HobbyKings.com :: View topic - 1998 skybox thunder rave / 150

I am far from buying this story. Where did he get the box? Did anyone see him open it?

The fact that it has defect similarities to th originals is good, but that doesn't mean it's real. Though I really hope it is.

Don't think there's anything in that link that hasn't already been gone over in this thread already.

The z-peat and raves are already a well known issue. I think the craziest thing to me is that they can replicate the hologram 3-d effect on the cards.

The PMG that was pictured is exactly like the ones already pictured in this thread and looks absolutely nothing like the original. No surface etching/texturing/red ball/red flame/no coloration in the name or logo.


It would take a miracle for them to make an identical copy of the pmg's simply because the designs are so intricate. They'd somehow have to take a mold of the front of the card which would mean sacraficing a very expensive original...and even then, it still wouldn't be right.

It's also interesting to note that later in that thread it states that Beckett is now aware of the situation and 'looking at the cards more closely when grading.'

Apparently there are still very minute differences between originals and replicas even with the very simple design fakes. But of course BGS is only in the business of taking money and not making sure their work is anywhere near 100% accurate. So buyers should do extra homework when dealing with high priced cards.

[ninjacookies]

Originally Posted by the27guy

Ninja cookies, did you look at my link?

Riddle me this.... In the past 8 months we've seen counterfeiters successfully dupe bgs into grading skybox rubies, raves, a cut aboves, bmocs and other cards that would seem very difficult to reproduce..... And now outta the blue, a guy pulls the freaking 1/10 pmg green mj........

How in the world is everyone buying this? What am I missing?

Please refer to my post.

Have you ever owned or held an original pmg? I owned 3 reds back in the day. I think what made them such a collector craze is the fact of how intricate the design of the cards were.

I can't say with 100 percent certainty that they will never create a 'good' looking copy of the pmg's, but until I myself see a replica pmg even remotely close to the original...I'm going to have to say it's very very slim. No 'fake' has ever surfaced to this point that even draws a question to authenticity.


As one of my original posts states...I think worst case is this card is somehow an unknown 'real' backdoor copy that wasn't serial numbered, but later serial numbered. Perhaps from an uncut sheet? But the edges/corner wear are just too consistent with how those cards are in real life.

[tristan20]

Originally Posted by ninjacookies

Don't think there's anything in that link that hasn't already been gone over in this thread already.

The z-peat and raves are already a well known issue. I think the craziest thing to me is that they can replicate the hologram 3-d effect on the cards.

The PMG that was pictured is exactly like the ones already pictured in this thread and looks absolutely nothing like the original. No surface etching/texturing/red ball/red flame/no coloration in the name or logo.


It would take a miracle for them to make an identical copy of the pmg's simply because the designs are so intricate. They'd somehow have to take a mold of the front of the card which would mean sacraficing a very expensive original...and even then, it still wouldn't be right.

It's also interesting to note that later in that thread it states that Beckett is now aware of the situation and 'looking at the cards more closely when grading.'

Apparently there are still very minute differences between originals and replicas even with the very simple design fakes. But of course BGS is only in the business of taking money and not making sure their work is anywhere near 100% accurate. So buyers should do extra homework when dealing with high priced cards.

If they could make it 20 years ago, they can make it today. And way better.
There is nothing special about the surface, ink or the card stock.

Not saying its a fake, but I am sure it can be faked.
The only thing that crooks have a difficult time forging are autos, which will come with time \ autopens lol

[jj2]

Originally Posted by the27guy

Ninja cookies, did you look at my link?

Riddle me this.... In the past 8 months we've seen counterfeiters successfully dupe bgs into grading skybox rubies, raves, a cut aboves, bmocs and other cards that would seem very difficult to reproduce..... And now outta the blue, a guy pulls the freaking 1/10 pmg green mj........

How in the world is everyone buying this? What am I missing?

The one guy on here who actually seems to own one thinks it's most likely real. That has to count for something, no?

[the27guy]

Yeah. I owned a Stockton green actually. And about another 10-15 reds through the years. You're absolutely right about the unique texture. No doubt it's very different....

But if you would have told me 12 months ago that rubies would be so perfectly replicated that bgs would even grade them as real, I would have thought you were crazy.

If you're going to forge something for the first time... Do it right. One near perfect mj with all the right imperfections is worth 6 figures. The only thing that gives me pause is the unique texture. The timing just seems too fishy.

Hope I'm wrong though. This would be one of the coolest stories ever.

[ninjacookies]

Originally Posted by tristan20

If they could make it 20 years ago, they can make it today. And way better.
There is nothing special about the surface, ink or the card stock.

Not saying its a fake, but I am sure it can be faked.
The only thing that crooks have a difficult time forging are autos, which will come with time \ autopens lol

If it's anyone that 'could' do it, it's China.

However, there will always be the most minute discrepancies between the fakes and originals. Sure, it would take having an original there to compare and over an hour of time with a jewelers loop, but there will ALWAYS be at least one discrepancy whether it be an off color, lettering being slightly 'off', etc. The problem with Beckett and PSA is they work on volume and don't give a rats ass about authenticity, at the end of the day. That's why they won't even refuse to grade an obviously altered card with a fake patch. Because they probably only give the cards a quick 5 minute 'glance over' and it's on to the next one.

I've dealt with fakes from China a TON due to the nature of business I'm in, and while they state 1:1 replicas, there are always differences because these chinese factories doing these things dont have the time or resources to do the same level of quality control that the industry giants do.

So yeah, in theory they could probably come close to making a copy that looks good to the naked eye. But with all things replica (be it artwork, clothing, shoes, etc) there will always be that one difference that tells it apart from the original...if the person is well versed enough to know what to look for.

[tristan20]

Originally Posted by ninjacookies

If it's anyone that 'could' do it, it's China.

However, there will always be the most minute discrepancies between the fakes and originals. Sure, it would take having an original there to compare and over an hour of time with a jewelers loop, but there will ALWAYS be at least one discrepancy whether it be an off color, lettering being slightly 'off', etc. The problem with Beckett and PSA is they work on volume and don't give a rats ass about authenticity, at the end of the day. That's why they won't even refuse to grade an obviously altered card with a fake patch. Because they probably only give the cards a quick 5 minute 'glance over' and it's on to the next one.

I've dealt with fakes from China a TON due to the nature of business I'm in, and while they state 1:1 replicas, there are always differences because these chinese factories doing these things dont have the time or resources to do the same level of quality control that the industry giants do.

So yeah, in theory they could probably come close to making a copy that looks good to the naked eye. But with all things replica (be it artwork, clothing, shoes, etc) there will always be that one difference that tells it apart from the original...if the person is well versed enough to know what to look for.

Problem is, once these fakes get slabbed. 90% of collectors, especially the ones that aren't on knowledgeable forums are gonna get taken.

Trust in the Label forget about the card, like most insert collectors do, I have seen off centered BGS 9.5 Jordan Rookies with 10 centering. And these guys eat it up because BGS says its 10, so it must be a 10.

[ninjacookies]

Originally Posted by the27guy

Yeah. I owned a Stockton green actually. And about another 10-15 reds through the years. You're absolutely right about the unique texture. No doubt it's very different....

But if you would have told me 12 months ago that rubies would be so perfectly replicated that bgs would even grade them as real, I would have thought you were crazy.

If you're going to forge something for the first time... Do it right. One near perfect mj with all the right imperfections is worth 6 figures. The only thing that gives me pause is the unique texture. The timing just seems too fishy.

Hope I'm wrong though. This would be one of the coolest stories ever.

I hear ya. The Rubies are just crazy. Can't believe how they were able to get the 3d hologram background and all that. I would love to just see what the fake looks like in person and be able to compare it to an original. Seems like these guys are selling them privately though to avoid any sort of prosecution, so they might not be as good in person as their pictures may portray.

And hell, who's to say the bgs holders and labels are real? Once it's slabbed, the buyers really have no repurcussion. But guess where those BGS and PSA slabs are manufactured? LOL

[jj2]

Originally Posted by tristan20

If they could make it 20 years ago, they can make it today. And way better.
There is nothing special about the surface, ink or the card stock.

Not saying its a fake, but I am sure it can be faked.
The only thing that crooks have a difficult time forging are autos, which will come with time \ autopens lol

And yet they can't fake a MJ rookie card properly.

[ninjacookies]

Originally Posted by jj2

And yet they can't fake a MJ rookie card properly.

lol bingo

Never ever such a thing as a 'perfect' 1:1 copy.

[SportsItUpCards]

Originally Posted by ninjacookies

I'm not singling out Panini. I just countered your statement by saying NO company or card or era of card is safe. Toss UD and Topps in there too, just for kicks.

This really doesn't have much to do with '90's era' inserts more than it has to do with the player Michael Jordan. They're obviously targeting Jordan in particular because he has such a cult following everywhere, most particularly Asia. I'm sure his Exquisite base cards will be next. And if he had a Panini card, it would have already been done. And now they're moving on to...Kobe. After that, I'm sure Lebron is next..if he hasn't already been.


I will loathe the day I see a perfect replica Topps chrome card. That opens up Pandora's Box for pretty much most of the past 20 years of the hobby to crumble.


Also, who mentioned Japan earlier? China and Taiwan are the mecca of counterfeits, and I'm 90% sure that's where they're being designed and made. And their lax legislation makes it a safe haven for these guys.

No sense talking about anything else... It's about the card in the OP.

But while we're at it, a cult? If he had so much of a cult following, then why weren't these cards selling for "$15,000"(the Reds that is), and 250K for the green, in 2007? Why all of a sudden did they become "HOT"? Shilling! That's how. So if you weigh a "cult following" with fake sales and hype, then I guess that's a cult. I still don't think all these people want these cards. lol if there are any 90's collectors even left! I'm the only surviving members of collectors from back then, and I knew many many people, from early days in school, to card shops and shows, adults and kids my age from back then, and I'm the only one left. So this crazy cult somewhere that you love referring to, for SPORTSCARDS........ There is no cult. It was fake sales, people pumping these cards and the prices, and passing them as the best thing since the wheel, and sliced bread. Then got Beckett involved to report the "record sales" in the magazines, and BAM........ Fake prices are now cataloged in the "price book" that's been bogus for years!!! It's a waste of chopping down trees.

So yeah, there is no secret cult of Jordan CARD collectors. Believe me. Fake hype, and fake prices. Nothing more. Oh sorry... actually there is more. FAKE counterfeit cards now! Smh

[the27guy]

the one good thing here is that at least Beckett is aware of their incorrectly grading the rubies and other ones mentioned earlier on.... Not sure if Psa has caught on yet. But in any case, they know how big of a deal this card is. If they incorrectly grade this card..... That is a mega super huge nail in their coffin.

On this forum in the last month we've seen....

Evidence that both bgs and Psa have graded as authentic cards where the patch had been replaced.

Mj 86 fleer Psa 10s, be proven as fake--- not graded by Psa but put together by forgers. As Tristan said... "Trusting the label"

Beckett actually grade fake 90s inserts.

These are serious issues. The reputation of both companies really feels like it's hanging by a thread. They can't mess this one up.