Lebron Going Forward

[blackbears86]

Originally Posted by dream34

He's missed one of the past 5 games and they have been against lesser teams, but Lakers on a 5-0 run starting with Lebron's 47 point game. 37/8/7 tonight on a back to back for the Lakers against a pretty good Kings team this year on 3 days rest. MJ had these runs when he was on the Wizards too at the same age. Fun to see.

Lebron is actually 17th in the league this year in VORP (right behind Markkanen and ahead of Siakam & Booker) and 15th in BPM. His 28.9 PPG this season is good for 8th in the league with a higher eFG% than 3 of the 7 guys ahead of him and only Luka with more assists than him among the 7 players in PPG. Long way of saying, he's putting up another amazing season and doing it very efficiently. Not bad so far for his 20th season.

Jordan averaged 20.0 PPG, 6.1 REB, 3.8 AST at age 38 compared to Lebron's current 29.2 PPG, 8.2 REB, 6.7 AST.


There's really no comparison between the two here at this point in their careers, but MJ did drop 51 on the Charlotte Hornets his last year (but that's a scrub team)


Lakers finally playing well. Hopefully AD can actually get healthy and play more than a few games at a time without getting injured.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by hauntedcomputer

Lebron always leads the league in bragging about how humble he is.
Personally, I am just not that into people who tattoo "The Chosen One" on their backs and call themselves "King." That's just me. I have no doubt plenty of people will buy his cards in the future (although I wonder if card nostalgia will actually be a thing for current Gen Z-ers in a digital world) and it doesn't bother me. I'd prefer to put my money and interest elsewhere because I don't care if they go up or down, I just want what I want and I don't want Lebron.

How dare you say this! You’re going to upset people here.

[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by blackbears86

Jordan averaged 20.0 PPG, 6.1 REB, 3.8 AST at age 38 compared to Lebron's current 29.2 PPG, 8.2 REB, 6.7 AST.


There's really no comparison between the two here at this point in their careers, but MJ did drop 51 on the Charlotte Hornets his last year (but that's a scrub team)


Lakers finally playing well. Hopefully AD can actually get healthy and play more than a few games at a time without getting injured.

Serious question. Do you believe the numbers jordan put up in that year in that league vs the numbers Lebron is putting up this year in this league are an apples to apples comparison?

Meaning you just look at them and go these numbers are higher so Lebron is way better at 38? Even though Jordan retired twice by then?

I agree Lebron is better at 38 btw. He hasnt retired twice and load managed. But I’m just asking do you think there’s no need to look at any of these blown up numbers with any context?

It was 73-73 at halftime last night. Jordan played in playoff games that ended barely higher than that.

[KhalDrogo]

All the LeBron stans do. That’s why they put the numbers out there. They’re desperate for one thing that LeBron is better than MJ at. And I agree. LeBron is great at putting up stats on an irrelevant Lakers team.

[blackbears86]

Originally Posted by 6celtics33

Serious question. Do you believe the numbers jordan put up in that year in that league vs the numbers Lebron is putting up this year in this league are an apples to apples comparison?

Meaning you just look at them and go these numbers are higher so Lebron is way better at 38? Even though Jordan retired twice by then?

I agree Lebron is better at 38 btw. He hasnt retired twice and load managed. But I’m just asking do you think there’s no need to look at any of these blown up numbers with any context?

It was 73-73 at halftime last night. Jordan played in playoff games that ended barely higher than that.

I said there was no comparison: Today's NBA is different. Scoring is higher, the talent pool is diminished because there are more teams, etc.



Edit: I've always said MJ is the GOAT. That won't change when Lebron has the scoring title.

[6celtics33]

Pretty brutal schedule coming up in January and February. Maybe he will average 50 and lead them back into the top 10 in their conference while saving cats from trees and kids from burning buildings.

If anybody can do it it’s him.

[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by blackbears86

I said there was no comparison: Today's NBA is different. Scoring is higher, the talent pool is diminished because there are more teams, etc.

Oh I misread. My bad

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by 6celtics33

Pretty brutal schedule coming up in January and February. Maybe he will average 50 and lead them back into the top 10 in their conference while saving cats from trees and kids from burning buildings.

If anybody can do it it’s him.

Their current run is no different than the Mavs 7 game win streak against a bunch of garbage teams. Brutal stretch for the Lakers the rest of January.

[dream34]

With all due respect to some of you, I think many of us don't care what you think and aren't trying to change your mind, it would be a fool's errand. Your opinions are obvious and of course they won't be changed anytime soon.

This is a thread about how people will view the guy in the future right?

I'll state it again in different terms: Wade, Carmelo, Bosh, Howard, Igoudala, CP3, Deron, Brandon Roy, Aldridge, Westbrook, Harden, Blake, John Wall. All these guys have either long been considered "old men" by NBA standards or have massively reduced roles. You have to get to KD & Curry and then zoom to AD & Kyrie to find players that are on Lebron's current level.

Meanwhile: Lebron is now 7th in the league in scoring averaging 29.1 PPG. Yes, league scoring is up so that raw number should not matter much. But he is still 7th among his peers in scoring. Among that top 7 he is 2nd in Assists while only being 5th in Turnovers. He's shooting at a better clip than all but Doncic, Embiid & KD among that top 7. His Turnover rate is the 4th lowest of his career while his scoring would be the 5th highest in his career. Stat padding! Maybe, but so are a lot of other players and he's doing it better/efficiently than almost anyone else in the league is.

It's not like we are screaming "I LOVE HIM!" over and over again like some of you insist on doing on the opposite end in this thread. That would add nothing at all.

He's 38 years old and in his 20th season, still at least keeping pace with not just the next generation but also the next next generation. Brady is obviously doing this in his sport. Pujols had a great run to finish his career that led to a noticeable interest in his important cards. Ortiz & Kobe had great finishes to their careers that boosted their collectability and values. With all these guys, especially Brady, Ortiz & Kobe (and even MJ) a lot of indifferent people eventually came around and said, I respect that guy for the hard work he put in all throughout his career.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by dream34

With all due respect to some of you, I think many of us don't care what you think and aren't trying to change your mind, it would be a fool's errand. Your opinions are obvious and of course they won't be changed anytime soon.

This is a thread about how people will view the guy in the future right?

I'll state it again in different terms: Wade, Carmelo, Bosh, Howard, Igoudala, CP3, Deron, Brandon Roy, Aldridge, Westbrook, Harden, Blake, John Wall. All these guys have either long been considered "old men" by NBA standards or have massively reduced roles. You have to get to KD & Curry and then zoom to AD & Kyrie to find players that are on Lebron's current level.

Meanwhile: Lebron is now 7th in the league in scoring averaging 29.1 PPG. Yes, league scoring is up so that raw number should not matter much. But he is still 7th among his peers in scoring. Among that top 7 he is 2nd in Assists while only being 5th in Turnovers. He's shooting at a better clip than all but Doncic, Embiid & KD among that top 7. His Turnover rate is the 4th lowest of his career while his scoring would be the 5th highest in his career. Stat padding! Maybe, but so are a lot of other players and he's doing it better/efficiently than almost anyone else in the league is.

It's not like we are screaming "I LOVE HIM!" over and over again like some of you insist on doing on the opposite end in this thread. That would add nothing at all.

He's 38 years old and in his 20th season, still at least keeping pace with not just the next generation but also the next next generation. Brady is obviously doing this in his sport. Pujols had a great run to finish his career that led to a noticeable interest in his important cards. Ortiz & Kobe had great finishes to their careers that boosted their collectability and values. With all these guys, especially Brady, Ortiz & Kobe (and even MJ) a lot of indifferent people eventually came around and said, I respect that guy for the hard work he put in all throughout his career.

Brady wins super bowls at his age. Bron misses the playoffs.

Bron is padding his stats this year on a team with half a unibrow, a head case Russ and a roster full of nothings that he hand picked.

He has no choice but to pad stats, lakers need to sell tickets.

He’s the best player on a garbage team, of course he is going to have super stats.

Do you really think he is going to gain new fans in the future if he lechokes at the end of the year and misses the impossible to miss nba playoffs again this year?

He runs a clown show for circus fans.

[dream34]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

Brady wins super bowls at his age. Bron misses the playoffs.

Bron is padding his stats this year on a team with half a unibrow, a head case Russ and a roster full of nothings that he hand picked.

He has no choice but to pad stats, lakers need to sell tickets.

He’s the best player on a garbage team, of course he is going to have super stats.

Do you really think he is going to gain new fans if he lechokes at the end of the year and misses the impossible to miss nba playoffs again at the end of the year?

Tell me you don't read without telling me you don't read. Good lord, it's like you just read the first and last paragraphs and only thought about what you wanted to... LOL

Actually seems like you just read the last paragraph LOL

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by dream34

Tell me you don't read without telling me you don't read. Good lord, it's like you just read the first and last paragraphs and only thought about what you wanted to... LOL

Actually seems like you just read the last paragraph LOL

How is Bron padding his stats more efficiently than everyone else and how is that going to create future fans for Bron, especially if the lakers lechoke down the stretch again?

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by dream34

With all these guys, especially Brady, Ortiz & Kobe (and even MJ) a lot of indifferent people eventually came around and said, I respect that guy for the hard work he put in all throughout his career.

Therein lies the problem with LeBron, and why he is different than the others you mention. How big of an “indifferent” population do you think he has? LeBron is not neutral. He chose to be polarizing.

Your choice of words suggests that you think even people like myself will one day view him more favorably.

“Won’t be changed anytime soon”

“Eventually came around”

Not happening. Ever. And that’s the crux of the discussion. How big is the “never LeBron” segment of the hobby? I think it’s a lot bigger than you probably think it is. And I say that because his prices are baffling in the context of what he’s accomplished and continues to accomplish. So the only explanation I have is that there are a lot of people who just will not buy him. I’ll admit that I kick the tires every now and then when it might be a no brainer. But I haven’t pulled the trigger in over a year now.

[blackbears86]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

Brady wins super bowls at his age. Bron misses the playoffs.

Bron is padding his stats this year on a team with half a unibrow, a head case Russ and a roster full of nothings that he hand picked.

He has no choice but to pad stats, lakers need to sell tickets.

He’s the best player on a garbage team, of course he is going to have super stats.

Do you really think he is going to gain new fans in the future if he lechokes at the end of the year and misses the impossible to miss nba playoffs again this year?

He runs a clown show for circus fans.

1. Didn't he just win a chip 2-3 years ago?


2. When Luka/Tatum/Jokic put up insane numbers against "scrub" teams are they stat padding?


3. He'd be the best player on a LOT of teams.



you are better than this Hermanotarjeta. You are usually impartial and have level headed thoughts/posts, no matter if you root for or against a particular player.

[Yanks23]

I mentioned it before that Lebron rcs are still too high vs historical prices even if they are down 50% or more from the pump and dump covid levels. Anyone that has been around knows that all of these high priced rcs of lebron, brady, curry, mahomes, etc are not sustainable since they have eliminated probably 95% or more of the potential buyer pool. I just dont see any significant level of more high end buyers coming into this marketplace when they see the loses that people have taken over the past 12 to 18 months and then look back last 5 to 10 years and see the run up already. There way better places to put your $$ for ROI vs buying overpriced GOATS that will at some point retire and be out of the daily spotlight.

[Nomad]

A major economy is reopening. Let's see what's sustainable.

[Kingofkings1281]

Originally Posted by dream34

People are just amazing...

One Guy: Spends a lifetime constantly bullying and demeaning teammates (coworkers) especially young ones, gets into fights with teammates. Has a long list of people close to him that no longer communicate with him. Gives almost no meaningful money to charity for decades. Takes up most of his Hall of Fame speech again picking on people less than him, including his kids. Created a culture off the court of high end gambling that eventually bankrupt an entire generation of up and coming players. Takes no personal stance on any issue ever. Admired and respected by nearly everyone.

Other Guy: Changes that culture to players taking care of their future generations, saving their money, investing wisely and building post NBA career business ownership. Creates a school. Wants to stay in the NBA to play with his son one day. Has a long list of personal friends that he's pulled along with him to be successful. Aside from one teammate (Kyrie) is widely respected and beloved by all former teammates. Brave and outspoken on what he believes in. Hated, despised and polarizing to some.



Maybe Most Selfish to YOU, but certainly not to the people around him or the families he's helped. It's amazing how we try to judge people by how they affect us and not the people that have actually been around them.

I’m just going to keep quoting this every few pages. Everyone wants to be like Mike! Never LeBron!

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by blackbears86

1. Didn't he just win a chip 2-3 years ago?


2. When Luka/Tatum/Jokic put up insane numbers against "scrub" teams are they stat padding?


3. He'd be the best player on a LOT of teams.



you are better than this Hermanotarjeta. You are usually impartial and have level headed thoughts/posts, no matter if you root for or against a particular player.

1. Brady won a Super Bowl at the age of 43, Bron won a 3/4 championship at 35 in a short season with a healthy AD - yuge difference. And I don’t see where Bron converted critics to new fans afterwards.

2. I never said anyone else wasn’t stat padding, but when you are the ONlY option on a team, your stats are inflated, like Luka.

3. No one is questioning bron’s talent - I have repeatedly stated he has the greatest toolbox in NBA history, along with shaq. With the diluted nba talent, I agree he would be the best player on most teams. But it doesn’t mean he can carry them to the playoffs if nobody can play with him.

4. And if you are calling my posts level-headed, you must be delusional, LOL.

[dream34]

Originally Posted by Yanks23

I mentioned it before that Lebron rcs are still too high vs historical prices even if they are down 50% or more from the pump and dump covid levels. Anyone that has been around knows that all of these high priced rcs of lebron, brady, curry, mahomes, etc are not sustainable since they have eliminated probably 95% or more of the potential buyer pool. I just dont see any significant level of more high end buyers coming into this marketplace when they see the loses that people have taken over the past 12 to 18 months and then look back last 5 to 10 years and see the run up already. There way better places to put your $$ for ROI vs buying overpriced GOATS that will at some point retire and be out of the daily spotlight.

Just look at the landscape and how things will probably fall, Lebron RCs are a bad way to go. If he was any tier lower level HOFer it would probably be the safest bet but he's clearly in the upper echelon where everyone THINKS the best buy is their first cards. Buying MJ or Kobe (high demand players) RCs late or after their careers would have yielded much worse results than buying more limited (supply) popular cards.

This is a sportscard message board with a ton of card knowledge. Pinpointing what people really like and will in the future has been and probably always will be key. If you guys don't think there are great long term cards (supply/demand) of Lebron that will appreciate nicely, you have not been paying attention to the last 20-25 years. 15 years ago you could have bought a subpar MJ Fleer RC for $400-500, at the same time a close friend bought a MJ Grand Finale SPx /50 instead. Last 3 have sold for 50k and despite the high sales they are not showing up for sale.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by dream34

Just look at the landscape and how things will probably fall, Lebron RCs are a bad way to go. If he was any tier lower level HOFer it would probably be the safest bet but he's clearly in the upper echelon where everyone THINKS the best buy is their first cards. Buying MJ or Kobe (high demand players) RCs late or after their careers would have yielded much worse results than buying more limited (supply) popular cards.

This is a sportscard message board with a ton of card knowledge. Pinpointing what people really like and will in the future has been and probably always will be key. If you guys don't think there are great long term cards (supply/demand) of Lebron that will appreciate nicely, you have not been paying attention to the last 20-25 years. 15 years ago you could have bought a subpar MJ Fleer RC for $400-500, at the same time a close friend bought a MJ Grand Finale SPx /50 instead. Last 3 have sold for 50k and despite the high sales they are not showing up for sale.

But you can’t possibly think there are opportunities in LeBron cards today that parallel a mid-grade Fleer MJ vs Grand Finale in the late 90s.

[dream34]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

But you can’t possibly think there are opportunities in LeBron cards today that parallel a mid-grade Fleer MJ vs Grand Finale in the late 90s.

What people think (opinion/gut) and what they've learned (wisdom) are totally different. I don't think (my personal opinion/gut) it will happen but after all facts are considered and a view of the landscape is taken, it is beyond reasonable that that specific possibility exists. You know how many people rolled their eyes at a 25k MJ Jersey Auto that they made 23 of? I used to just laugh that people would actually pay hundreds of dollars for Slam Bams that they made 100 of, I still do but I was absolutely proven wrong beyond any argument I could ever make.

In this specific thread (not mentioned by me) there is a direct angle that absolutely makes sense for a specific type of Lebron card. I'm not posting this for you Khal, you've made up your mind and are sticking to your guns. Just trying to give my best opinion to people who aren't as decided and open to changing their mind. I used to hate MJ, respect him now. Used to hate Brady, respect him now. It happens.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by dream34

What people think (opinion/gut) and what they've learned (wisdom) are totally different. I don't think (my personal opinion/gut) it will happen but after all facts are considered and a view of the landscape is taken, it is beyond reasonable that that specific possibility exists. You know how many people rolled their eyes at a 25k MJ Jersey Auto that they made 23 of? I used to just laugh that people would actually pay hundreds of dollars for Slam Bams that they made 100 of, I still do but I was absolutely proven wrong beyond any argument I could ever make.

In this specific thread (not mentioned by me) there is a direct angle that absolutely makes sense for a specific type of Lebron card. I'm not posting this for you Khal, you've made up your mind and are sticking to your guns. Just trying to give my best opinion to people who aren't as decided and open to changing their mind. I used to hate MJ, respect him now. Used to hate Brady, respect him now. It happens.

One may respect Bron in the future, but it doesn't mean one is going to go out there and help the lambo dreams of those who paid peak prices on Bron cards last year during the pandemic and buy for EVEN HIGHER prices.

Bron is already SO EXPENSIVE for what you get as a player and he's a HORRIBLE investment IMO from what i've been saying since last year's peaks. You will have uber-wealthy BRON bois passing cards to each other and calling them record high sales, but for folks like you and me, I don't see the investment potential when anyone who wants an "investment grade" BRON card ALREADY has one. Who is going to buy from you to continue to break "record high prices". And no one wants to lose money from when they bought at peak last year. It's going to be a hugely stagnant market for BRON moon bois, who are waiting for their third year prizm laker rookies to skyrocket back in price like his exquisite, SPA and ultimate rookies.

[pcptrade]

In addition to my thoughts in post #280 on page 12, the way I look at it is-

Price-wise: No card or player is safe including the GOAT's and it all depends on the entry and exit level/price. Jordan MJ Fleer PSA 10 dropped from 600-700K to 180K (75% drop), Brady Champ Ticket BGS 8.5 have dropped from 2 million to 500K (75% drop), Lebron Exquisite RPA BGS 8.5 have dropped from 1.25-1.5 million to 550K (66% drop)

Hobby Interest: Ignoring the price, hobby interest will be there for Mantle, Ruth, MJ, Lebron, Curry, Kobe, Brady, Gretzky and many other great athletes.

From an Investment perspective, it all depends on when you purchased it/cost basis. I acquired my Lebron Exquisite RPA/99 for 200K in March 2020. It's current value is 500-530K, which is approx 150% increase in 3 years. The same 200K investment in AAPL or GOOGL in March 2020 would have yielded 80-100% returns in 3 years based on the current price of AAPL and GOOGL stock .

Are Lebron, Jordan, Brady, Curry, Kobe card prices a safe bet at current prices? No one can say for sure. It is all tied to the economy and stock market. I am bullish on very few rare and desirable high end cards long term and have consolidated my portfolio as such.

[KhalDrogo]

Cards need to do 10x over the next 25 years to keep up with historical S&P returns before considering fees associated with selling. If it doesn’t have 10x potential, it shouldn’t be viewed as an investment. So you better feel plenty of value from owning it.

[pcptrade]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Cards need to do 10x over the next 25 years to keep up with historical S&P returns before considering fees associated with selling. If it doesn’t have 10x potential, it shouldn’t be viewed as an investment. So you better feel plenty of value from owning it.

No one should consider crypto and sports cards as better or safer investments compared to stock market going forward especially after seeing the price action over the past 3 years unless they are playing with house money and don't care. If I had cash on the sidelines now, I would invest it in stock market instead of sports cards. The days of 10-50X returns in crypto and sports cards are over in my opinion at least for the next 5-10 years.