BGS Black Labels, Joe Clemons (eBay ID: wjc75056), and Illegitimate Grading

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by Asian62150

The sad thing is, I'm not sure any of us are surprised that Eagle Eye got special treatment or was even allowed to grade his own cards.

There's little to no oversight at BGS.

I'm glad that this thread helped expose BGS and they're now dealing with the consequenes.

Would be interesting to hear Joe's side of the story. Where you at, Eagle Eye?

[auburn35]

Having finished both videos, I'm fairly the former grader is the same as the writer, previously mentioned.

I did think it was somewhat odd they referenced the blowout thread as a source, rather their own experience as a grader.....i.e. we would occasionally see additional people come in and help grade.

It was established that leaf (Joe) would drop off and pickup submissions in person, but possibly being the actual card grader, that is new.

[Trueblue]

It's just sad that the reason Beckett has been unable to address this in public is because it exposes even bigger fractures in their operations/integrity.

[larry25]

Originally Posted by SaveMeTheGum

I'm glad I saved this pic. The 2018 Beckett Industry summit hosted some of the biggest card trimmers in the hobby.

I've heard these names for YEARS and have heard crazy stories. Tons of high-end Jordan inserts, for example, most of which are probably now owned by Nat Turner. Why aren't there huge threads devoted to these people? Or are they just that good that they never got caught?

[LVDan]

Originally Posted by larry25

I've heard these names for YEARS and have heard crazy stories. Tons of high-end Jordan inserts, for example, most of which are probably now owned by Nat Turner. Why aren't there huge threads devoted to these people? Or are they just that good that they never got caught?

Largely I suspect it’s because no one really cares tbh. The number on the flip rules the hobby with an iron fist. Especially in the “check out the cigarette boat in my driveway” world of high end collections. Don’t ask/ don’t tell is pretty much the prevailing vibe it seems.

[Scottish Punk]

Originally Posted by larry25

I've heard these names for YEARS and have heard crazy stories. Tons of high-end Jordan inserts, for example, most of which are probably now owned by Nat Turner. Why aren't there huge threads devoted to these people? Or are they just that good that they never got caught?

I don't think most realy care when it comes down to it, sadly. Trimming, repairing, and cleaning cards is almost accepted now. A PSA slab washes all sins.

[Asian62150]

Has Nat ever shared his thoughs on trimming and such?

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by larry25

I've heard these names for YEARS and have heard crazy stories. Tons of high-end Jordan inserts, for example, most of which are probably now owned by Nat Turner. Why aren't there huge threads devoted to these people? Or are they just that good that they never got caught?

What’s stopping you from sharing your knowledge in a new thread?

[larry25]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

What’s stopping you from sharing your knowledge in a new thread?

I don't have pictures and spreadsheets and links like all the BODA posts here. I just think it's odd that some of the bigger names in the grading and trimming scandals never got spotlighted, names like these that make even this Joe Clemons guy look like small potatoes. I've heard that these guys and many more were regulars at not just that Beckett summit above but at the PSA Invitational grading events for years and years, that PSA knew full well who was who and who was doing what, that 10s don't exist, they are made, yadda yadda. Old hat now I guess.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by larry25

I don't have pictures and spreadsheets and links like all the BODA posts here.

What’s stopping you? If you have the info, it should be shared.

[larry25]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

What’s stopping you? If you have the info, it should be shared.

What's stopping YOU? Can you not read? I said I don't have the info (scans, spreadsheets, links, ie, INFO). I just know those names and have seen and heard them for years but never seen a dedicated post. Feel free, pal. Would potentially enjoy reading one of your posts.

[LVDan]

I sold several hundred 2018 TCU singles to Joe shortly before all of this scandalous news broke. I wonder if any of those cards got the the near impossible “black label” bestowed upon them??
My closest brush with hobby infamy I suppose.

[dizzydolse]

Originally Posted by larry25

I've heard these names for YEARS and have heard crazy stories. Tons of high-end Jordan inserts, for example, most of which are probably now owned by Nat Turner. Why aren't there huge threads devoted to these people? Or are they just that good that they never got caught?

Aren't there huge threads started by BODA on all these guys?

[dizzydolse]

Originally Posted by Scottish Punk

I don't think most realy care when it comes down to it, sadly. Trimming, repairing, and cleaning cards is almost accepted now. A PSA slab washes all sins.

I think people do care, a lot. The threads that BODA created had a pretty big impact I thought. I could be wrong. BGS is in shambles, Eagle Eye is a pariah, SmallTraditions and Dave Thorn haven't been heard from since, etc...

The one that bothers me the most is Leaf and how they are still allowed to operate. BG has had at least one scandal surrounding him every year he's been around it seems.

[LVDan]

[dizzydolse]

[SaveMeTheGum]

Originally Posted by larry25

I've heard these names for YEARS and have heard crazy stories. Tons of high-end Jordan inserts, for example, most of which are probably now owned by Nat Turner. Why aren't there huge threads devoted to these people? Or are they just that good that they never got caught?

Check these out:

Directory of Trimmed/Altered threads

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by larry25

What's stopping YOU? Can you not read? I said I don't have the info (scans, spreadsheets, links, ie, INFO). I just know those names and have seen and heard them for years but never seen a dedicated post. Feel free, pal. Would potentially enjoy reading one of your posts.

How would I make a thread about a topic I don’t have any info about? You said you heard crazy stories, and questioned why there aren’t any threads on it. But then back down when asked to post them? Do you think you found your answer why there are no threads?

[NYRE2PECT]

Originally Posted by LVDan

I sold several hundred 2018 TCU singles to Joe shortly before all of this scandalous news broke. I wonder if any of those cards got the the near impossible “black label” bestowed upon them??
My closest brush with hobby infamy I suppose.

Crazy....and gross.

[auburn35]

Originally Posted by SaveMeTheGum

Check these out:

Directory of Trimmed/Altered threads

Yeah, you can easily find threads dedicated to SSI, Kevin Burge and his associates on blowout and just about any hobby message forum. Even without photos/links, if anyone has stories on any of the outed dealers or someone without a thread, feel free to share.

[ken161]

Very interesting interview -- the Clemons revelations obviously but some other stuff as well. The former grader did not seem like he had an axe to grind with Beckett or anyone else. Of course, he was telling his side of the story, but the interview had a certain ring of authenticity.

I also thought the guys running the podcast did a good job. They seemed knowledgeable about the hobby but didn't have an obnoxious shock-jock schtick.

Glad I listened. Thanks for posting.

Originally Posted by superdan49

UPDATE...



Good morning,

New information has emerged in the Joe Clemons/BGS scandal. In December, the guys from the Sports Card Madness podcast interviewed a former grader for Beckett in a two-part interview entitled "An Ex-Beckett Grader Comes Clean & Tells Us EVERYTHING."

Here are the relevant YouTube links:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73z7AZXr4ys (Part I)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUg731AUBW4 (Part II)



This dealer, who asked to remain anonymous, worked for BGS for a little over a year. During that time, he awarded just one single Black Label.
Around the 19 minute mark of Part I, he delves into the Black Label controversy regarding the "guy that was working for Leaf," of whom he stated the following:

He closed on this topic by referring people to this BO thread and opining, "I think ever since that happened, BGS hasn't been the same. I think that was kind of their downfall."



Based on these accusations, there are some obvious new questions for Joe:

1) While working for Leaf, did you ever do contributor and/or per diem grading work (paid or otherwise)?

If yes to the first question:
2) Did you ever grade your own cards?
3) Did you ever grade the cards of your employer, Leaf?



Another topic—germane to this issue—discussed by this former BGS grader was the fact that he and his fellow graders knew the identity of the submitters of the orders they were grading, at least when it came to the big-time submitters. Here I quote again:

And just as a reminder of the quantity of Black Labels we are talking about(courtesy Auburn35):

[corndog]

Excellent work!

[auburn35]

Brian Gray (leaf) provided a response to Sports Card Radio....no proof of anything and it's just not true, regarding the interview with the alleged former Beckett grader.
https://youtu.be/6oQk2KLNNHo?feature=shared&t=2582

While I also question some of what the former grader mentioned, I thought it was interesting to hear yet another round of numbers from Brian, while calling out another person for not being trurthful.

In this statement to SCR about leaf's own Black Labels, BG mentions that leaf sorted through 200,000~ cards, submitting 30,000~ to Beckett for 200~ Black Labels.

Not too surprising, but this isn't consistent with the prior explanations from BG.
Which of these, if any are the correct numbers that BG has provided 200,000, 30,000, 20,000, 4,000,......?

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=3299

Additionally, I do not believe the graders know whose order anyone's order is. Although, I am sure they can "guess" that if I submit Valiant a month or more prior to release for the graded cards inside the product and we submit 4,000++++ cards, they might be able to guess it is the manufacturer.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=4348

I thought the biggest takeaway was the two different explanations about how the Leaf Valiant product is graded. He first spoke about how Leaf weeds through 30,000 cards to submit the best 5000 for grading. Later on, Brian implies that 20,000~ are submitted to Beckett as a special minimum grade submission, with Beckett only grading 5000~ and not logging the 15,000~ rejected cards. I realize these are likely just examples but Brian is clearly saying that at least his Leaf manufactured cards are processed differently than other Leaf/Beckett submissions.

Thread breaking down some Valiant numbers.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1299119

Brian again tossing out BS submission numbers, disputing the info coming directly from Joe's Beckett submissions.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=4334

About The Cards Podcast - Episode 101
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMoo...outu.be&t=1932

The video link is setup to start at the Black Label conversation but the rest of the video has discussions on "investing" and trimming..., if anyone is interested in hearing about those topics from Brian Gray.

This is the post that Brian is talking about at the end, trying to spin that Joe could be submitting 3,000, 8,000, 20,000 cards to get all of his Black Labels, as it's unknown how many cards he submits or how Beckett inputs his cards into the system.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=1714

It's pretty clear that Joe's account showed a total of 767 card were graded, over these 30 orders. Also showcased are the different service methods that processed the orders.

Not surprisingly, but I believe that Brian is lying when he says it was Superdan's choice, to only share the Black Label information from Joe's account. Maybe Joe can confirm who is telling the truth.

[THE(NEXT)LEVEL]

Originally Posted by auburn35

Brian Gray (leaf) provided a response to Sports Card Radio....no proof of anything and it's just not true, regarding the interview with the alleged former Beckett grader.
https://youtu.be/6oQk2KLNNHo?feature=shared&t=2582

While I also question some of what the former grader mentioned, I thought it was interesting to hear yet another round of numbers from Brian, while calling out another person for not being trurthful.

In this statement to SCR about leaf's own Black Labels, BG mentions that leaf sorted through 200,000~ cards, submitting 30,000~ to Beckett for 200~ Black Labels.

Not too surprising, but this isn't consistent with the prior explanations from BG.
Which of these, if any are the correct numbers that BG has provided 200,000, 30,000, 20,000, 4,000,......?

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=3299


https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=4348


Thread breaking down some Valiant numbers.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1299119

Brian again tossing out BS submission numbers, disputing the info coming directly from Joe's Beckett submissions.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=4334

After all the years of being one of the most shady characters in the hobby, who the f would believe one word that comes out of BG's mouth. He knew EXACTLY what was going on.

[daveyc1]

I certainly do not believe everything that comes out of BG's mouth.

on the other hand, how do we know this guy was actually a BGS grader? is there any proof? He didnt even give his name, did he? I am taking everything he said with one little single grain of salt.