2022 Hall of Fame Ballot

[JoshMN]

Originally Posted by JRX

Honest question, why is Mattingly not a hof now? More hits than Rolen, more gold gloves at his position, has an mvp. We're really basing everything on War positional adjustments?

The GGs were a joke (like Jeter's) and he was just an average hitter for half of a 14 year career (very short career by HOF standards).

Rolen was an elite defender. Mattingly was not an elite defender, but was a Yankee.

Mattingly had the talent to be a HOF, but injuries probably kept that from happening.

[Silent George]

Originally Posted by JRX

Honest question, why is Mattingly not a hof now? More hits than Rolen, more gold gloves at his position, has an mvp. We're really basing everything on War positional adjustments?

Mattingly wasn’t on the ballot. We don’t know what the current writers would have done with him. That’s now how this works.

And you don’t need WAR to tell you the difficulty of playing one position over the other. if Don Mattingly could play 3B like Scott Rolen, that’s where he would have played. He couldn’t. So he didn’t. These things are not nearly equal, and WAR needn’t exist to know that.

[tgittings]

Originally Posted by JRX

Honest question, why is Mattingly not a hof now? More hits than Rolen, more gold gloves at his position, has an mvp. We're really basing everything on War positional adjustments?

Pretty sure Mattingly was up for the HOF well before WAR became a measuring stick.

[Retired hobbist]

Originally Posted by Aribasebal

Think Sheffield deserves it way more than Rolen. Over 500 HRs

I hope he never sees the light of day. He's a dirty drug cheat and isn't transcendent like ARod or Bonds and Clemens.

You could argue if Sheffield was clean he falls into a netherworld of many near hall of fame players.

[JRX]

Originally Posted by tgittings

Pretty sure Mattingly was up for the HOF well before WAR became a measuring stick.

He was and didn't get in because his actual stats weren't good enough, but now actual stats don't really matter and its all being based on defensive metrics whose assumptions are rarely looked at or understood.

[dsprague12]

Originally Posted by JRX

Clark played in candlestick, helton in Coors. Of course helton is going to have better counting stats, he was ted Williams at home.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

That’s fine, but they have essentially equal OPS+ and Helton largely blows him out of the water in all counting stats. I know counting stats are generally thought of with less importance, but they are overwhelmingly in Helton’s favor by comparison to a negligible difference in OPS+ — and they include some milestones like 2500 hits and top 20 all time in doubles that add some value to the overall resume.

And Helton was a better defender.

[Silent George]

Originally Posted by dsprague12

That’s fine, but they have essentially equal OPS+ and Helton largely blows him out of the water in all counting stats. I know counting stats are generally thought of with less importance, but they are overwhelmingly in Helton’s favor by comparison to a negligible difference in OPS+ — and they include some milestones like 2500 hits and top 20 all time in doubles that add some value to the overall resume.

And Helton was a better defender.

I briefly was scared I missed a Jack Clark debate.

[Retired hobbist]

Originally Posted by PunsRTonsOfFun

I'm actually not a fan of him being in the Hall and I think he was the one who started the "average bat but elite glove" making the HOF.

His stats offensively are similar to Rolens but he blows him out of the water defensively. It's similar to Smith to the next best fielding shortstop.

[ironfireman]

Originally Posted by PunsRTonsOfFun

I don't have as much a problem with Robinson and Rolen getting in as I do Ozzie Smith and soon to be Molina. Especially in Molina's case. You should need to be a better offensive player than Jason Kendall to make the HOF. I know Cardinals fans won't like that, but I don't care.

This entire discussion is making me realize that Mike Schmidt is tremendously underrated.

I'm a Cubs fan and hate Molina's guts, but he ranks first all-time among catchers in putouts and second all-time among catchers in Defensive Runs Saved with 130. Dude erased the running game. 9 Gold Gloves. The Cardinals had one sub .500 season the 19 years he was there (the year after they won a world series). Obviously, Molina is not the sole reason, but I think he was a bigger reason than we give credit for. Hell, I think someday we'll realize that catchers handling the staff, the 120-150 times they handle the ball a game, framing, pregame, and all that they do have far more impact than we realized.
I #@#@#@#@ing hate the Cardinals, but Molina is a first ballot HOF. I think he was worth 10 wins a year.

[discostu]

Originally Posted by JoshMN

Just pointing out that Lou finished 15th in the voting with 22.5% in his first time on the ballot. The stuff you guys are talking about has been going on since the beginning in 1936. It's more laughable that you think you have it all figured out.

In 1936, Cy Young got 49.1% and didn't get in. Babe Ruth was left off the ballot by 11 voters (5%), and finished third that year. The HOF voters have been following that playbook on different levels ever since.

You've got it all figured out for sure.

I mean, it's not like the rules or norms changed.

Gehrig only 22.5% of the vote in his first year, clearly he needed that 2nd MVP award to finally get the attention. Wait, that loser didn't even get a single vote in 1937, 1938 or 1939?!?!? Dude should have been off the ballot!

Boy oh boy are those writers and the process so stupid.

Thanks for trying to enlighten us ne'er-do-wells.

[PunsRTonsOfFun]

Originally Posted by ironfireman

I'm a Cubs fan and hate Molina's guts, but he ranks first all-time among catchers in putouts and second all-time among catchers in Defensive Runs Saved with 130. Dude erased the running game. 9 Gold Gloves. The Cardinals had one sub .500 season the 19 years he was there (the year after they won a world series). Obviously, Molina is not the sole reason, but I think he was a bigger reason than we give credit for. Hell, I think someday we'll realize that catchers handling the staff, the 120-150 times they handle the ball a game, framing, pregame, and all that they do have far more impact than we realized.
I #@#@#@#@ing hate the Cardinals, but Molina is a first ballot HOF. I think he was worth 10 wins a year.

If you think Molina was great, let me tell you about this catcher named Pudge...

There's a lot of catchers that should go into the Hall before Molina. Mauer, Munson, Posey, and even Posada to name a few.

[marl1220]

Originally Posted by JoshMN

The GGs were a joke (like Jeter's) and he was just an average hitter for half of a 14 year career (very short career by HOF standards).

Rolen was an elite defender. Mattingly was not an elite defender, but was a Yankee.

Mattingly had the talent to be a HOF, but injuries probably kept that from happening.

[epatmythes]

Originally Posted by ironfireman

I'm a Cubs fan and hate Molina's guts, but he ranks first all-time among catchers in putouts and second all-time among catchers in Defensive Runs Saved with 130. Dude erased the running game. 9 Gold Gloves. The Cardinals had one sub .500 season the 19 years he was there (the year after they won a world series). Obviously, Molina is not the sole reason, but I think he was a bigger reason than we give credit for. Hell, I think someday we'll realize that catchers handling the staff, the 120-150 times they handle the ball a game, framing, pregame, and all that they do have far more impact than we realized.
I #@#@#@#@ing hate the Cardinals, but Molina is a first ballot HOF. I think he was worth 10 wins a year.

Cubs fan, here, too. Molina was one of the few Cardinals I respected, dude was a master of his craft.

Position matters. No catcher in MLB history has ever had a 30/30 season. No catcher in MLB history has ever had 3000 hits. Molina is 5th All-Time in hits by a catcher (2168). So, yeah, he contributed offensively for a position that doesn't often expect much in that arena. 3 of the 4 ahead of him are in the HOF, Kendall the lone exception. Yadi has a slightly higher WAR than Kendall, and doubles him in dWAR (28 vs. 13.9).

[Silent George]

Originally Posted by epatmythes

Cubs fan, here, too. Molina was one of the few Cardinals I respected, dude was a master of his craft.

Position matters. No catcher in MLB history has ever had a 30/30 season. No catcher in MLB history has ever had 3000 hits. Molina is 5th All-Time in hits by a catcher (2168). So, yeah, he contributed offensively for a position that doesn't often expect much in that arena. 3 of the 4 ahead of him are in the HOF, Kendall the lone exception. Yadi has a slightly higher WAR than Kendall, and doubles him in dWAR (28 vs. 13.9).

bref doesn't take into account pitcher framing. Yadi smokes his WAR in Fangraphs and Prospectus.

[jswest18]

Originally Posted by PunsRTonsOfFun

I don't have as much a problem with Robinson and Rolen getting in as I do Ozzie Smith and soon to be Molina. Especially in Molina's case. You should need to be a better offensive player than Jason Kendall to make the HOF. I know Cardinals fans won't like that, but I don't care.

This entire discussion is making me realize that Mike Schmidt is tremendously underrated.

I have a slightly harder time with Molina because McCann is an easy contemporary comparison. McCann was a really good defensive catcher and a great hitting catcher for most of his career but I watched him play a lot and never thought of him as a HoF. That's just my objective opinion though. Admittedly, though Molina controlled the running game like no other and was a much better defensive catcher.

Ultimately I'm in on both Ozzie and Molina. The two most demanding positions defensively on the field and they were the best to ever do it defensively. You might could make the argument for Pudge over Molina defensively but I think the consensus would be Molina.

I agree with what was said earlier about how valuable a C is to a pitching staff in how he calls the game, frames pitches, blocks pitches, etc. And having to kneel with that equipment all game, I'm quicker to give a pass offensively for a C than for any other position. While Molina was below average offensively he still ended with an OPS of 96 so he wasn't complete trash for his career. Add in the career success of the Cardinals during his time there, all of which he played a major role in, I think he should make it.

No question Ozzie was the greatest to do it and is in the same conversation as Brooks for the greatest defender of all time. He's a no brainer for me.

[par578]

Never thought of Rolen as a HOF'er. A very good player, but not a HOF'er.

[JRX]

Originally Posted by discostu

You've got it all figured out for sure.

I mean, it's not like the rules or norms changed.

Gehrig only 22.5% of the vote in his first year, clearly he needed that 2nd MVP award to finally get the attention. Wait, that loser didn't even get a single vote in 1937, 1938 or 1939?!?!? Dude should have been off the ballot!

Boy oh boy are those writers and the process so stupid.

Thanks for trying to enlighten us ne'er-do-wells.

Weren't you not allowed to win the mvp more than once when it first started?

[Bcr]

Originally Posted by par578

Never thought of Rolen as a HOF'er. A very good player, but not a HOF'er.

Well... now you can because he is!

[Bcr]

Originally Posted by epatmythes

Cubs fan, here, too. Molina was one of the few Cardinals I respected, dude was a master of his craft.

Position matters. No catcher in MLB history has ever had a 30/30 season. No catcher in MLB history has ever had 3000 hits. Molina is 5th All-Time in hits by a catcher (2168). So, yeah, he contributed offensively for a position that doesn't often expect much in that arena. 3 of the 4 ahead of him are in the HOF, Kendall the lone exception. Yadi has a slightly higher WAR than Kendall, and doubles him in dWAR (28 vs. 13.9).

Catcher will always be the hardest position to judge fairly. There's so much to what they do that it is way too difficult to quantify it accurately. The number of runs Yadi prevented by just being behind the plate is ridiculous. Teams were so afraid to run on him that they just wouldn't. Not to mention his game management skills.

[PunsRTonsOfFun]

You guys are talking about Molina as if he's even half as good as Pudge Rodriguez was. Molina shouldn't even be in the same sentence as Pudge.

[Bcr]

Originally Posted by PunsRTonsOfFun

If you think Molina was great, let me tell you about this catcher named Pudge...

Originally Posted by PunsRTonsOfFun

You guys are talking about Molina as if he's even half as good as Pudge Rodriguez was. Molina shouldn't even be in the same sentence as Pudge.

Ironic...

[JRX]

Gonna be fun when Posey gets in with only 1500 hits and a bare minimum 10 full seasons played. Pretty much every player that battled injuries would have better off just retiring.

[epatmythes]

Originally Posted by PunsRTonsOfFun

You guys are talking about Molina as if he's even half as good as Pudge Rodriguez was. Molina shouldn't even be in the same sentence as Pudge.

Tell me you don't know baseball, without telling me you don't know baseball

The only sentence they're not in together is anyone including the word steriod(s)...

[RandAlThor]

Originally Posted by PunsRTonsOfFun

You guys are talking about Molina as if he's even half as good as Pudge Rodriguez was. Molina shouldn't even be in the same sentence as Pudge.

Molina most definitely belongs in the same sentence as Pudge.

[PunsRTonsOfFun]

Originally Posted by epatmythes

Tell me you don't know baseball, without telling me you don't know baseball

The only sentence they're not in together is anyone including the word steriod(s)...

Tell me you don't know the definition of evidence, without telling me you don't know the definition of evidence.