50 games in - who is your rookie of the year?

[drobfan8]

DM reminds me of a bit more of an athletic version of Lillard.

He's gonna be a bit streaky at times, but damn, he's explosive.

Utah have an amazing future with their core.

Probably need to move on from Favors and get another quality 4 man in, hopefully Exum can be a contributor.

Solid group when you have facilitators like Rubio and Ingles.

[BlueXtreme]

Originally Posted by drobfan8

DM reminds me of a bit more of an athletic version of Lillard.

He's gonna be a bit streaky at times, but damn, he's explosive.

Utah have an amazing future with their core.

Probably need to move on from Favors and get another quality 4 man in, hopefully Exum can be a contributor.

Solid group when you have facilitators like Rubio and Ingles.

I see Wade as his ceiling. I thought DM was a better shooter, but his 3pt % has been slipping. A lot of shots coming up short or rolling in and out.
He’s really explosive. He was getting to the rim a lot tonight but just not able to finish. Was one of those nights. Usually he puts those in. A lot of ooh.. ahhh.. nope.. lol

[the27guy]

One of Donovan’s toughest games in a while.

[CubKings]

He needs to chill on the three ball.

[the27guy]

Originally Posted by CubKings

He needs to chill on the three ball.

He’s definitely trailed off. Under 30% now above the break.

But, as has been pointed out ad nauseum, when he’s not going, we don’t exactly have a go-to guy. He’s it.

[jstasyk1121]

Originally Posted by the27guy

He’s definitely trailed off. Under 30% now above the break.

But, as has been pointed out ad nauseum, when he’s not going, we don’t exactly have a go-to guy. He’s it.

i mean its crazy....with how dynamic he is i wonder if he is just exhausted with the long season and just settling for 3s all day now...he has been pretty awful at the 3 lately...and keeps shooting more and more capped off by his 1-10 last night...

his games would prob all look even better if he passed on those at least a few times a game and just tried to get to the rack and either score or hope to get to FT line...


.258 last 11 games on 8.5 attempts per game...i know you guys keep saying that their offense basically goes if he goes but they won most of these games and won them rather easily...so its hard to take the "when hes not going, we dont exactly have a go-to guy. He's it." story...

they won 9 straight where he was shooting just as bad...but then they lose to a horrible ATL team and its "well if he is off we struggle"...

in these same 11 games he has shot overall 40% or less in 6 of them...they won 4 of those games by a combined 82pts

the offense has been pretty good lately(prob cuz the defense has been so amazing so its been easier for the offense to get going)...Gobert has been producing...Ingles, Rubio both filling up the box score....

idk...to me its almost just frustrating to see him jacking up so many 3s when he is clearly struggling greatly from deep lately.... 25% over the last month and he is shooting them at a curry/harden clip...someone tell him to stop!!

he is hurting his overall season with this stretch...sooo many 3s...that % keeps plummeting which is bringing down all the other %'s

im done arguing with you guys...im just talking here... im not rooting for him to have bad games as much as you guys might think...its frustrating in general to see a player go against what he is best at...he is struggling so bad but just keeps chucking...i mean take a few games and only shoot 3-4 threes and see how the outcome is...he is a good FT shooter...maybe if you lay off the 3s so much you get to line 10+ times and end up with a much more efficient game overall...

i mean this has to be frustrating for you as a huge Jazz fan right?

[the27guy]

Originally Posted by jstasyk1121

i mean this has to be frustrating for you as a huge Jazz fan right?

They’ve won 21 of their last 24 games. Hard to find things to be frustrated about.

[jstasyk1121]

Originally Posted by the27guy

They’ve won 21 of their last 24 games. Hard to find things to be frustrated about.

lol that is true!! i just meant for him specifically...i feel like if i was a big Utah fan it would be maddening lately seeing him shoot so many 3s...i would just want him to get away from that since he is struggling so bad lately...

[tjforce]

Mitchell's shooting numbers lately haven't been pretty, but it's helped get the job done for the jazz.

Games like last night won't help him much in the ROY race, as it will only perpetuate the notion that's he's a volume shooter, as opposed to an effectent one, but if that style keeps helping the Jazz win games, then so be it.

On the other hand, if they lose thier next couple in a row and he's still shooting like that, then maybe it's time to slow down on the threes. Till then, keep doing what's winning you games

[BlueXtreme]

Originally Posted by tjforce

Mitchell's shooting numbers lately haven't been pretty, but it's helped get the job done for the jazz.

Games like last night won't help him much in the ROY race, as it will only perpetuate the notion that's he's a volume shooter, as opposed to an effectent one, but if that style keeps helping the Jazz win games, then so be it.

On the other hand, if they lose thier next couple in a row and he's still shooting like that, then maybe it's time to slow down on the threes. Till then, keep doing what's winning you games

Agreed. I don’t think he’s a volume shooter though. He’s able to get to the rim and explosive. I think he’s tired. Shots coming up short. Not finishing at he rim. Not dunking what he usually does. Coming into the NBA with the extended season/dunk contest and having to carry the load. just seems he’s slowly declining from exhaustion. Could be wrong. That’s just what I gather from watching him play. His shots are usually on line. Just short. He’s not elevating like he usually does either.
I don’t think it mattered in ROY running though. That has been Simmons award to lose.

[the27guy]

Originally Posted by jstasyk1121

lol that is true!! i just meant for him specifically...i feel like if i was a big Utah fan it would be maddening lately seeing him shoot so many 3s...i would just want him to get away from that since he is struggling so bad lately...

The point that I would stress is this - The Jazz's team oriented offense was built around a guy who left this offseason. The foundation of the offense was removed - and you know what happens when you remove a foundation.

As a team, without the foundation, you can get by for 15 minutes a game, or even see guys step up for a couple of games and hold things together...

but after a while, it all falls apart.

That's Mitchell's role on the team now, amazingly. And as a fan base, we've been completely floored that a rookie could step in and do the job that Mitchell has done. We hoped that it'd be Rodney Hood, but he couldn't do it.

I would stress that Donovan's the part of the Jazz offense that teams are game planning for. He's the biggest reason why Gobert and Favors get the open dunks and Ingles is leading the league in 3pt%. He's the dynamic piece to the offense that causes so much of the spacing.

So, although I don't love a lot of the shots that he takes, I recognize that if he doesn't fill that role, the team does not have another dynamic offensive player to do what he does.

And they wouldn't have won 21 of the last 24.

So no, it's not maddening.

[BlueXtreme]

Originally Posted by the27guy

I would stress that Donovan's the part of the Jazz offense that teams are game planning for. He's the biggest reason why Gobert and Favors get the open dunks and Ingles is leading the league in 3pt%. He's the dynamic piece to the offense that causes so much of the spacing.

I agree with you 27guy. These are the intangibles that no amount of stats can provide. Not everyone has the privilege of watching him play night in and night out like we do.
I think we are getting away from the ROY discussion though lol

[drobfan8]

Joe Ingles 3pt % this season = 44%

Last season = 44% also

Damn Adam, DM is not the reason Ingles is leading the League in 3pt%

The bias is strong.

I'm not trying to be mean here, I just knew Ingles has been a great shooter for a few seasons now and DM aint the reason.

[the27guy]

Originally Posted by drobfan8

Joe Ingles 3pt % this season = 44%

Last season = 44% also

Damn Adam, DM is not the reason Ingles is leading the League in 3pt%

The bias is strong.

I'm not trying to be mean here, I just knew Ingles has been a great shooter for a few seasons now and DM aint the reason.

The shmack talk is strong with you.



Read my post again.... see if you can figure out what's wrong with your reply.

[drobfan8]

Originally Posted by the27guy

The shmack talk is strong with you.



Read my post again.... see if you can figure out what's wrong with your reply.

Please read your post again. No need to get all bitey.

DM is the BIGGEST reason Ingles is leading the league in 3pt%

So who was the reason last season? When he was elite in that area also

[BlueXtreme]

Originally Posted by drobfan8

Please read your post again. No need to get all bitey.

DM is the BIGGEST reason Ingles is leading the league in 3pt%

So who was the reason last season? When he was elite in that area also

I think it’s the fact DM had to replace Hayward in order for Ingles to continue to get those looks this year, and the bigs to get the open dunks? That’s my guess lol

[drobfan8]

Originally Posted by BlueXtreme

I think it’s the fact DM had to replace Hayward in order for Ingles to continue to get those looks this year, and the bigs to get the open dunks? That’s my guess lol

Wow, clutching at straws though right?

I mean, Gobert and Favors have been getting dunks their entire careers, Ingles has shot 44%, 44%, 38% from 3. They're not exactly scrubs.

Hayward and DM are borderline All Star players (same with Gobert), but this kind of argument could be put the other way too, which is why it's not the best line of thinking.

Here,

DM is only getting assists because Gobert and Favors are quality bigs and Ingles is an elite shooter.

Which would also be clutching at straws.

[hofcollector2]

Last time I say this, it's not even a close race. Simmons by a landslide.

[tjforce]

Originally Posted by hofcollector2

Last time I say this, it's not even a close race. Simmons by a landslide.

Easy to argue that he's pulling away.

If Washington can't come back to win tonight then Philly jumps to the 4th seed.

[moosetequila]

Originally Posted by hofcollector2

Last time I say this, it's not even a close race. Simmons by a landslide.

Yup.^^^

Before tonight here are the current stats
2nd points (1st DM)
1st Assists (6th DM)
1st Rebounds (Not in the top 10 DM)
2nd Steals (3rd DM)
5th Blocks (Not in the top 10 DM)

I've lost track of his double doubles and Triple Doubles. (DM has 0)

[jstasyk1121]

with about 10 games left:

Current stat line:

Donovan Mitchell: 20.0 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 3.6 apg

Ben Simmons: 16.1 ppg, 7.8 rpg, 7.9 apg

other "classic" stats:

Donovan Mitchell: 1.4 spg, 0.4 bpg, .435 FG%, .338 3pt%, .829 FT%

Ben Simmons: 1.7 spg, 0.8 bpg, .536 FG%, .000 3pt%, .573 FT%

Advanced Stats:

Donovan Mitchell: 16.3 PER, 0.9 offWS, 3.3 defWS, 4.2 WS, .090 WS/48, 1.1 OBPM, -0.1 DBPM, 1.0 BPM, 1.7 VORP, .542 TS%, .505 eFG%

Ben Simmons: 19.4 PER, 3.2 offWS, 4.0 defWS, 7.2 WS, .146 WS/48, 0.8 OBPM, 3.1 DBPM, 3.9 BPM, 3.5 VORP, .551 TS%, .536 eFG%

Team Success:

Utah Jazz- at one point were 19-28 and when all-nba hopeful Rudy Gobert came back they have been among the hottest teams in the NBA going 21-3 since that time. D.Mitchell has been the leading scorer as a rookie on this team and him along with Gobert and the likes of Rubio and Ingles have really been running on all cylinders. He has seen a dip in efficiency lately due to an errant 3pt shot the last month or so but is still considered the main scoring option on the red-hot Jazz who even after this run are still fighting for a playoff spot as they currently hang onto the 8th spot, 1.5gms ahead of DEN and 2.0 gms ahead of LAC. But to even be in this position after a rough 1st half of the season is surprising.

Philadelphia 76ers- they have been a fun team to watch all season with Simmons and uber-talent Joel Embiid leading the way to a surprising spot in the standings. The team once again lost its #1 draft pick for the season which was also the case with Embiid and Simmons in their respective draft years but that has only allowed these two to blossom. Simmons has been steadily producing at a historic clip for a rookie which we have only seen from Legends Oscar Robertson and Magic Johnson prior. The 76ers are 40-30 on the season and currently hold the 4th seed. This team hosting a playoff series would be pretty shocking seeing where they were in recent years.

Recap:
Both young players are having sensational rookie seasons, Mitchell being the leading scorer on a team surging toward the playoffs isnt seen too often, but the Jazz are really making strides as a defensive powerhouse. Simmons is doing what only one person has ever done as a rookie(Big O) and his team is also looking to make a nice playoff splash. Both rookies are benefiting from a top-tier Big on their roster.
When looking at stats it paints a clear picture tipping heavily towards Simmons as Mitchell is leading in PPG/FT%/3pt% and Simmons is leading every other category-classic or advanced.
If you argue that Mitchell is "carrying his team" more then the question is how much is that worth? Simmons is such a talented passer and playmaker who is very efficient offensively, but he is not the leading scorer on his team-Embiid has that title.

Verdict:
Simmons wins rather easily getting about 75% of the 1st place votes available. I think for Mitchell to win the 76ers would have to be on outside of playoff picture once again to make the team success portion really be his argument to combat the statistical side that Simmons has. But with both team succeeding and looking like 45-ish Win teams I dont believe his team success will really do much for him at the end. I get the east/west part but PHI is up to #4 so its not like they are hanging on to 8th in the lesser conference.

[BlueXtreme]

My argument was never Simmons not deserving the award or stats. It was just realizing Mitchell is a special talent as well, and sometimes intangibles do not show up on a spreadsheet. I know I’ll get a lot of crap for that, but I can give an example.
Last night Lebron drove and drew 3 defenders. Kicked it out. First player has defenders running toward him. Sends it to second player. 3 swoosh.. Doesn’t show Lebron initiated the play. Things like that.

Funny we were discussing fatigue in this thread. During the Sixers game last night, the announcers brought up the fact that Simmons is showing no physical or mental fatigue in his rookie season and that’s rare. No dip. Nothing. And when they spoke to him, he said he feels a slight mental fatigue, but no physical. Have to credit him for being that well in-tune as well. Both physically and mentally. Props to him.

[COMCMax]

I'm back on the Simmons bandwagon. He's got the media coverage and paired with another "superstarish" type player gives him a organic advantage. Mitchell would win most seasons by a landslide.

[jstasyk1121]

Originally Posted by BlueXtreme

My argument was never Simmons not deserving the award or stats. It was just realizing Mitchell is a special talent as well, and sometimes intangibles do not show up on a spreadsheet. I know I’ll get a lot of crap for that, but I can give an example.
Last night Lebron drove and drew 3 defenders. Kicked it out. First player has defenders running toward him. Sends it to second player. 3 swoosh.. Doesn’t show Lebron initiated the play. Things like that.

Funny we were discussing fatigue in this thread. During the Sixers game last night, the announcers brought up the fact that Simmons is showing no physical or mental fatigue in his rookie season and that’s rare. No dip. Nothing. And when they spoke to him, he said he feels a slight mental fatigue, but no physical. Have to credit him for being that well in-tune as well. Both physically and mentally. Props to him.

well unlike Utah/DM...philly last night went up like 25-30 mid way thru 3rd...Simmons was DONE for the night at that point...thats why he isnt fatigued as much...cuz that is what you are supposed to do...Utah has just been playing 35-40mins every game no matter the outcome or score....during that 7gm stretch we talked about a few days ago...DM averaged like 37.8 Minutes per game for those games...they won all 7 by like 14 or more....why is he playing 38mpg in all of those!!! that was my "stat padding" argument...what other reasoning is there to play your guys that much when you are winning by 20 for the last 18mins of the game?? so if it wasnt that then its just very poor choice by the coach in my opinion...

in what way does it make any sense....up 20 entering 4th...DM plays 8mins in the 4th...they win by 23...why did he play 8 seconds in the 4th let alone 2/3 of the quarter like it was a playoff game?

[BlueXtreme]

Originally Posted by jstasyk1121

well unlike Utah/DM...philly last night went up like 25-30 mid way thru 3rd...Simmons was DONE for the night at that point...thats why he isnt fatigued as much...cuz that is what you are supposed to do...Utah has just been playing 35-40mins every game no matter the outcome or score....during that 7gm stretch we talked about a few days ago...DM averaged like 37.8 Minutes per game for those games...they won all 7 by like 14 or more....why is he playing 38mpg in all of those!!! that was my "stat padding" argument...what other reasoning is there to play your guys that much when you are winning by 20 for the last 18mins of the game?? so if it wasnt that then its just very poor choice by the coach in my opinion...

in what way does it make any sense....up 20 entering 4th...DM plays 8mins in the 4th...they win by 23...why did he play 8 seconds in the 4th let alone 2/3 of the quarter like it was a playoff game?

Simmons was in when they were up last night. I don’t remember by how much, but I remember changing the channel because I knew it was over lol. Turned on the raptors/Cavs. I don’t think they were winning by 20 in all of those games. In the West, you can’t take any chances. Don’t forget, the Sixers have a more sturdy hold on making the playoffs. The Jazz are in a battle. And maybe it’s to give him more experience. I think that’s more likely than padding stats for a ROY award.