[Rovell] NFLPA terminates relationship with Panini effective immediately

[BayAreaChris]

Originally Posted by rmw10

They've been pumping out the college Instant cards, too. Raises some eyebrows.

Yes very concerning. Seems they are selling product that was already produced or in production, but anything new may be on hold.

[49erRCCollector]

Originally Posted by BayAreaChris

Yes very concerning. Seems they are selling product that was already produced or in production, but anything new may be on hold.

My thoughts exactly. This could be an indicator of just that.

[rmw10]

Originally Posted by BayAreaChris

Yes very concerning. Seems they are selling product that was already produced or in production, but anything new may be on hold.

I know they usually announce products in batches so obviously could still be more to come, but it has been radio silent on new products since the days immediately following the announcement. Only one thing scheduled in November as of now and that’s just a box set of Donruss that is actually scheduled to release in October.

[49erRCCollector]

I'm might just be seeing things in the shadows but when there was no Instant announcement - I mean Gipson should have an Instant card as of Monday after hard knocks/the walk-off, I started to wonder if the NFLPA maybe has the upper hand here?

Will be very curious if we only get a handful of releases this year.

[BayAreaChris]

I’m not a lawyer so not sure what implications Panini would have if they continue to produce product even though the contract was cancelled.

Is the worst case that they lose and if they did produce product after the contract was ended, they’d have to pay hefty fines or pay all profits to NFLPA? That might not be worth the risk.

[rmw10]

Originally Posted by BayAreaChris

I’m not a lawyer so not sure what implications Panini would have if they continue to produce product even though the contract was cancelled.

Is the worst case that they lose and if they did produce product after the contract was ended, they’d have to pay hefty fines or pay all profits to NFLPA? That might not be worth the risk.

If they don't have the rights to use a players image and likeness, they'd almost surely incur lawsuits with some large fines associated. Would assume that they're towing the line to whatever the contract stipulates for now without pushing the envelope further.

[BayAreaChris]

Originally Posted by rmw10

If they don't have the rights to use a players image and likeness, they'd almost surely incur lawsuits with some large fines associated. Would assume that they're towing the line to whatever the contract stipulates for now without pushing the envelope further.

The question is are they only doing this for Instant or also all product that wasn’t in production.

Optic and Prizm are definitely not in production so are they in a holding pattern or do they produce it and risk throwing it away.

You would hope they produce it and somehow get to release it as part of some settlement, otherwise we are getting no premium 2023 licensed product for a long time.

[rmw10]

Originally Posted by BayAreaChris

The question is are they only doing this for Instant or also all product that wasn’t in production.

Optic and Prizm are definitely not in production so are they in a holding pattern or do they produce it and risk throwing it away.

You would hope they produce it and somehow get to release it as part of some settlement, otherwise we are getting no premium 2023 licensed product for a long time.

Keep in mind that Fanatics owns the printers that Panini uses, so it's not like they can sneak anything additional in there.

I'm obviously not 100% sure of the process, but would imagine that before a sell sheet is released, there's some sort of contract with the printer to make sure they can meet all of the needs. So would doubt they could even sneak anything else in that way either.

Fanatics has eyes all over it.

[49erRCCollector]

All speculation, of course, but this is pretty wild if we only get less than 1/4 the planned slate of products this year.

[BayAreaChris]

I don’t think Panini would try to slip anything by the NFLPA regardless. It’s all what their lawyers think they can do.

I assume printing product is fine but not releasing. It would depend on how confident they are if they produced the product that they could make money from it. Pretty risky but it could be selling it as a final agreement.

100% alot more 2023 licensed NFL product is coming out. It’s just when and what Panini or Topps brands.

I’m not sure either company cares if there’s a delay honestly. That would mean they care about the collectors more than themselves.

[Grid]

Originally Posted by BayAreaChris

I’m not a lawyer so not sure what implications Panini would have if they continue to produce product even though the contract was cancelled.

Is the worst case that they lose and if they did produce product after the contract was ended, they’d have to pay hefty fines or pay all profits to NFLPA? That might not be worth the risk.

Its all pending litigation right now. I agree with rmw10, that Panini is going to toe the line. Panini's side had the NFL PA rights, to start the season. And produced cards, and signed sales agreements, in good faith to sell said cards.

They are standing behind a pending antitrust suit against Fanatics. As well as a wrongful contract termination against the NFLPA. Neither case has been settled. And while we don't know the details of the contract with the NFLPA. If it stated any product in production could be sold. Then production itself is open ended. Even if the future sets aren't printed. If they already started graphic designs or other things, then those cards are in production as a technicality.

All of this would be different, if they started making cards without an agreement. But the fact that they had an agreement, and their lawyers believe it was terminated unjustly. It would make more sense for them to keep doing what they are doing, as this all plays out in a court of law.

[byronscott4ever]

Originally Posted by 49erRCCollector

I'm might just be seeing things in the shadows but when there was no Instant announcement - I mean Gipson should have an Instant card as of Monday after hard knocks/the walk-off, I started to wonder if the NFLPA maybe has the upper hand here?

Will be very curious if we only get a handful of releases this year.

I think NFL Instant isn’t happening unless legally something changes

[rmw10]

Originally Posted by BayAreaChris

I don’t think Panini would try to slip anything by the NFLPA regardless. It’s all what their lawyers think they can do.

I assume printing product is fine but not releasing. It would depend on how confident they are if they produced the product that they could make money from it. Pretty risky but it could be selling it as a final agreement.

100% alot more 2023 licensed NFL product is coming out. It’s just when and what Panini or Topps brands.

I’m not sure either company cares if there’s a delay honestly. That would mean they care about the collectors more than themselves.

To the first bolded, I doubt it. Fanatics owns the printer. They can play hard ball and judging by how these two sides have been going, they aren't going to relent

To the second bolded, I mean maybe not. In a world where this actually sticks, Fanatics has the NFLPA rights but not NFL. Panini has the NFL rights but not NFLPA. I'm almost sure the NFL would also try to cut bait with Panini if the courts rule in Fanatics' favor, but there's no guarantee of that. Would also be pending some legal stuff.

[BayAreaChris]

Originally Posted by rmw10

To the first bolded, I doubt it. Fanatics owns the printer. They can play hard ball and judging by how these two sides have been going, they aren't going to relent

To the second bolded, I mean maybe not. In a world where this actually sticks, Fanatics has the NFLPA rights but not NFL. Panini has the NFL rights but not NFLPA. I'm almost sure the NFL would also try to cut bait with Panini if the courts rule in Fanatics' favor, but there's no guarantee of that. Would also be pending some legal stuff.

That’s fair on the second point. I keep forgetting the NFL did not pursue ending their contract with Panini yet. That means the only chance we have of getting timely 2023 NFL licensed product is if Panini or Topps are already printing even though neither has both license.

For the first point, I’m debating on Fanatics owning the printer and stopping production. I don’t think they would do that solely because it’s Fanatics. They might do it because they legally believe they shouldn’t be doing it but blackballing Panini from printing in general seems to open up a can of worms.

[49erRCCollector]

Plus - and maybe I'm off base - but in ANY event I would be more than mildly surprised if Fanatics/Topps has 2023 NFL releases in any kind of pipeline with multiple lawsuits hanging over this.

Maybe I'm wrong?

Probably not?

[cholodolo]

Originally Posted by BayAreaChris

That’s fair on the second point. I keep forgetting the NFL did not pursue ending their contract with Panini yet. That means the only chance we have of getting timely 2023 NFL licensed product is if Panini or Topps are already printing even though neither has both license.

For the first point, I’m debating on Fanatics owning the printer and stopping production. I don’t think they would do that solely because it’s Fanatics. They might do it because they legally believe they shouldn’t be doing it but blackballing Panini from printing in general seems to open up a can of worms.

My understanding is Fanatics has a controlling stake in the printing company -- they do not "own" it outright. It isn't Fanatics printing, it is whatever company they sunk money into. Key portion for me is Panini's contract is with that entity, not Fanatics. If Fanatics (or its entity) violates that contract as retaliation for the legal dispute, that's bad news bears.

The NFLPA better have had their ducks in a row before breaking that contract. If true they are relying on some "change of management" language when in fact Fanatics induced the management of Panini to leave, I don't see any Judge or Arbitrator going for that. If the NFLPA cannot demonstrate neglect or poor performance from Panini in line with contractual terms, Panini wins.

Fanatics appears to be going with a "student body right" approach to get rid of Panini.

[49erRCCollector]

Originally Posted by cholodolo

Fanatics appears to be going with a "student body right" approach to get rid of Panini.

Being 10x their size helps with this approach.

[rmw10]

Originally Posted by BayAreaChris

That’s fair on the second point. I keep forgetting the NFL did not pursue ending their contract with Panini yet. That means the only chance we have of getting timely 2023 NFL licensed product is if Panini or Topps are already printing even though neither has both license.

For the first point, I’m debating on Fanatics owning the printer and stopping production. I don’t think they would do that solely because it’s Fanatics. They might do it because they legally believe they shouldn’t be doing it but blackballing Panini from printing in general seems to open up a can of worms.

I mean in the current state, Fanatics isn't going to let Panini go in and run the presses. In the event Panini wins the legal battle, I don't see Fanatics stopping them, but they're almost surely going to make it harder on them. They did it last year when they were still on speaking terms. Things have only gotten worse since then.

[glassofwater]

i wouldnt suprise me to see a nflpa topps now card

I find it funny, that this week bowman u now card was texas longhorns, after panini made a big deal of this deals with manning, and ewers.

[cholodolo]

Originally Posted by 49erRCCollector

Being 10x their size helps with this approach.

Absolutely -- and they will use all of their resources: media, social media influencers, players, other commercial partners of Panini etc.

It's a craven power grab that would be scrutinized if this were another industry.

[49erRCCollector]

Originally Posted by glassofwater

i wouldnt suprise me to see a nflpa topps now card

I find it funny, that this week bowman u now card was texas longhorns, after panini made a big deal of this deals with manning, and ewers.

I would be surprised.

It's one thing to send a letter terminating the contract and pushing it to court.

It's another, while it is in doubt, to start printing cards. Because if Fanatics or the NFLPA loses the suit that would follow from Panini for Fanatics damaging their brand/business, etc.. would be swift.

The only question is would Fanatics be bold/have deep pockets enough to go for it anyway.

[Fenway55]

Originally Posted by BayAreaChris

I’m not a lawyer so not sure what implications Panini would have if they continue to produce product even though the contract was cancelled.

Is the worst case that they lose and if they did produce product after the contract was ended, they’d have to pay hefty fines or pay all profits to NFLPA? That might not be worth the risk.

The NFLPA announced the contract was cancelled, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it really was. Panini is quite adamant that the NFLPA does not have the right to cancel the deal.

[kluke84]

This reminds me a bit of when EA lost the CFB license and stopped making the NCAA games.

I don't think the NFLPA wants Panini to print more cards. I still guess it was due to a backdoor agreement with Fanatics to get more profit sharing to sign.

[CapMarvelous]

Originally Posted by 49erRCCollector

Plus - and maybe I'm off base - but in ANY event I would be more than mildly surprised if Fanatics/Topps has 2023 NFL releases in any kind of pipeline with multiple lawsuits hanging over this.

Maybe I'm wrong?

Probably not?

I'm with you on that. I would love to know the shortest turnaround time for Fanatics/Topps to gather the data/content, design the cards, print and ship a product.

2023 will be an anomaly year for collecting. Every years has far too many releases so some might no mind it. This year's class will be robbed of many must-have releases if Panini can't release anything past Donruss.

[49erRCCollector]

Originally Posted by CapMarvelous

I'm with you on that. I would love to know the shortest turnaround time for Fanatics/Topps to gather the data/content, design the cards, print and ship a product.

2023 will be an anomaly year for collecting. Every years has far too many releases so some might no mind it. This year's class will be robbed of many must-have releases if Panini can't release anything past Donruss.

Or... or... The lack of releases later will make current releases that much more important log term. Truly limited run of cards.

Either way, really interested in how it all plays out.