Did WhatNot Open a FAKE 1986-87 Fleer Basketball Box at The National?

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

Seriously, that's not on BBCE. That's on the seller. Strange he questions what's right and then doesn't include the letter in the auction. Maybe it was Goldin who didn't though. Thanks for posting this

To add, it's actually sad that people dont do their homework. Why not send BBCE an email and inquire about the serial number? I'm sure the letter would've been brought up in the correspondence.

It's on BBCE for certifying that 34 of the 36 packs were good unopened/unsearched packs.

He stated in the video that the Jordan sticker pack that was replaced was pulled out looked like it was natural unsticking of the seal, but it looked like it was lifted up to see the sticker and was therefor a searched pack.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

Seriously, that's not on BBCE. That's on the seller. Strange he questions what's right and then doesn't include the letter in the auction. Maybe it was Goldin who didn't though. Thanks for posting this

To add, it's actually sad that people dont do their homework. Why not send BBCE an email and inquire about the serial number? I'm sure the letter would've been brought up in the correspondence.

How do you know whatnot didn’t inquire before making the purchase?

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

How do you know whatnot didn’t inquire before making the purchase?

Good point, they could even be bigger idiots.

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by whitmm

It's on BBCE for certifying that 34 of the 36 packs were good unopened/unsearched packs.

He stated in the video that the Jordan sticker pack that was replaced was pulled out looked like it was natural unsticking of the seal, but it looked like it was lifted up to see the sticker and was therefor a searched pack.

My comment is referring to why the letter wasn't included in the Goldin auction as it stated the sticker breakdown. Seeing that letter, I know that it's a "put together box" and I'm not paying a premium price for it. Additionally, I'm going to ensure that at least 3 Jordan 57's by sequence are in it by contacting BBCE. I watched the video though, thanks.

[mc1]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

Good point, they could even be bigger idiots.

Theyre idiots for buying BBCE authenticated items. Thats for sure.

[KhalDrogo]

People will do anything to defend their BBCE collection!

[duron]

So Hart never had some magical methodology for authenticating boxes?

Thought magic was real.

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by mc1

Theyre idiots for buying BBCE authenticated items. Thats for sure.

Is there a better alternative aside from one's own personal knowledge of what they are buying? The Larry Fritsch company I suppose. I know OPC baseball but he only does OPC that last I checked. The farmer guy Kurt that does FASC boxes. Otherwise, calling ALL people idiots for buying BBCE wrapped boxes is completely unreasonable. It's not like tampered boxes are only coming from them. But yeah, I'll be waiting on the fire sales for 50's, 60's and 70's unopened.

[mc1]

Youre the one that started throwing around insults.

[oldgoldy97]

Originally Posted by duron

So Hart never had some magical methodology for authenticating boxes?

Thought magic was real.

Just like grading. Sham show.

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by duron

So Hart never had some magical methodology for authenticating boxes?

Thought magic was real.

Weird take man. It's about knowledge in the details. It doesn't have to be from BBCE. Just know WTF you are looking at. People are just used to paying a premium for boxes from them. There is clearly added value from BBCE authenticating packs and boxes. Reputation goes a long way and if prices drop because enough people don't believe in the brand, I'm good with that. I like to open sh*t.

In this WhatNot case, there still isn't a video of the box being unwrapped that anyone can find. So there are a couple legit possibilities.

[mc1]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

In this WhatNot case, there still isn't a video of the box being unwrapped that anyone can find. So there are a couple legit possibilities.

♫ What a fool believes, he sees
No wise man has the power to reason away ♫

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by mc1

Youre the one that started throwing around insults.

I called the buyer of the WhatNot box an idiot for not doing their homework. If they DID do their homework and STILL bought that frankenstein box to promote their application they should be demoted or fired. If you're the host at the National (Ripping Wax) and didn't unwrap the BBCE box live on camera, that owner is also an idiot. I mean, come on, that's what you do for a living. Additionally, the host should've known the sequence was off and stopped immediately. Are you one of those two idiots? If not, don't take offense.

[mc1]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

I called the buyer of the WhatNot box an idiot for not doing their homework. If they DID do their homework and STILL bought that frankenstein box to promote their application they should be demoted or fired. If you're the host at the National (Ripping Wax) and didn't unwrap the BBCE box live on camera, that owner is also an idiot. I mean, come on, that's what you do for a living. Additionally, the host should've known the sequence was off and stopped immediately. Are you one of those two idiots? If not, don't take offense.

Are you buddies with Steve Hart? Why do you keep defending him so much?

[duron]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

Weird take man. It's about knowledge in the details. It doesn't have to be from BBCE. Just know WTF you are looking at. People are just used to paying a premium for boxes from them. There is clearly added value from BBCE authenticating packs and boxes. Reputation goes a long way and if prices drop because enough people don't believe in the brand, I'm good with that. I like to open sh*t.

In this WhatNot case, there still isn't a video of the box being unwrapped that anyone can find. So there are a couple legit possibilities.

Genuinely not seeing how it’s a weird take. For years BBCE has been vaunted as basically the sole authority for rewrapped boxes. I’m not talking about the premiums they fetch, since that’s as obvious as graded cards. I’m speaking more to what the actual methodology is that he claims to use. Would love to hear it but I’m pretty sure that’s never discussed.

You mention Fritsch as really the only other authority that doesn’t just specialize in specific brands. Maybe I just need to read up on the history of BBCE. Could be missing the secret sauce here.

There was also a certain Rattle video where he highlighted what Hart deemed rock solid attributes in determining the authenticity of the Pokemon stuff, meanwhile a relative layman knew it signified nothing.

Granted this is all a very small sample size, but I’m forced to think there are way more examples out there waiting to be revealed. Good on you for wanting to open more stuff if confidence wanes, especially given your knowledge. That only makes sense, but most aren’t educated enough and it seems reasonable at this point to give a bit less blind faith.

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by duron

Genuinely not seeing how it’s a weird take.

You stated it takes magic. I'm telling you it's takes knowledge of what you're buying.

Originally Posted by duron

I’m speaking more to what the actual methodology is that he claims to use. Would love to hear it but I’m pretty sure that’s never discussed.

Some of those details are actually discussed in one of the videos in this very thread. But there are numerous details that can be used to authenticate a wax pack. However, just as having the ability to determine fake late 90's basketball inserts isn't discussed widely, as it can be used as an advantage by fraudsters. I'm sure the same applies to wax packs from back then. There are a social media groups that have members with the knowledge to explain it.

Originally Posted by duron

You mention Fritsch as really the only other authority that doesn’t just specialize in specific brands. Maybe I just need to read up on the history of BBCE. Could be missing the secret sauce here.

Fritsch is not an authority per se, they just own a lot of unopened that came straight from the factories going back to the 70s. They are pretty secret on what they have in their inventory.

Reed from DACardWorld is another individual I haven't mentioned yet. He has tremendous knowledge on all things unopened. He just hasn't started a company wrapping boxes.

Originally Posted by duron

There was also a certain Rattle video where he highlighted what Hart deemed rock solid attributes in determining the authenticity of the Pokemon stuff, meanwhile a relative layman knew it signified nothing.

BBCE f*cked that up big time and rightfully so, effected his reputation. I don't believe he had ill intent though. For the other actors in that debacle, that's a different story. He should've stayed away from doing that case particularly with questionable provenance.

Originally Posted by duron

That only makes sense, but most aren’t educated enough and it seems reasonable at this point to give a bit less blind faith.

There are other options out there a previously mentioned. I'm good with the ones I choose. Personally, I don't have much of anything unopened and would only buy from reputable sources anyway if it was that old.

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by mc1

Are you buddies with Steve Hart? Why do you keep defending him so much?

No, I just believe in holding people accountable for their actions or inaction. That includes the original owner,Goldin, WhatNot,Rippling Wax and yes, BBCE. But before I form an opinion about this Whatnot box, I'd like to see that the break was handled properly (unwrapped on video) and the packs weren't compromised after the BBCE exchange wrap came off. It's rather quite simple, don't look to deep into it like you are.

[Woodsy074]

Seriously, is there a video anywhere of this entire break? I found Packman's part on his channel but it was already well into the break.

[ShaqMagic]

Originally Posted by Woodsy074

Seriously, is there a video anywhere of this entire break? I found Packman's part on his channel but it was already well into the break.

It was broadcast on whatnot, which doesn't appear to save past streams. (This is the link to the stream page: https://www.whatnot.com/live/c13d58a...f-1787b8c4013f, it has a video there but that is just some promo video not the stream.)

There is a video of the crowd which has the audio, so e.g. you can hear which cards are coming out of a pack here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uu-wQsrvLqs&t=5656s. Later the video turns to the stage, but you can't see the cards.

[boston12]

I’m not a BBCE supporter or hater. No skin in the game at all. But this has to put a serious dent in their credibility. I collect sealed wax, but not vintage. There is risk in modern sealed wax but much less so compared to vintage wax. When someone gets a BBCE wrapped vintage box you are putting 100% faith into that authentication. How could anyone put that much faith into BBCE with these high priced products moving forward?

[ninjacookies]

Since when have monopolies been a good thing?

People entrusted Steve's expertise because he found a very unique niche and conquered it, leaving very few if any alternatives in the space. And with virtually zero transparency (gotta protect the trade secrets, amirite?), all the high paying customers are left with are 'dude, just trust me...I been doing this awhile' promises sealed with a cellophane kiss. PSA's following the blueprint.

Unless he has some yet undiscovered x-ray technology able to distinguish Cobra Commander bass from a 57 without compromising factory patina, then I'm calling shenanigans. He's just managed to be a helluva Mike Baker disciple peddling the snake oil.



Dateline investigation with 40 assorted high end, antique cases sprinkled with Justin Beiber S2 packs sent anonymously.

Let's peel back the blinders of clecter idiocracy.

[jr24ai3]

Posted on the collectors/PSA forum.

The following is from Steve himself:

Let me explain how 1986/87 Fleer basketball collation runs within the packs. The cards come in the packs in reverse alphabetical order (Z to A) in 2 separate groups separated by 66. For example,

125
59
124
58
123
57
122
56
121
55

As you can see, the 2 groups of numbers are in reverse alphabetical order, intertwined within each other, separated by 66. This is how people can search out the packs with Jordan in them (or any other card). You just need to see what the top card is and the run is easily figured out.

This pattern is very consistent throughout the print run for 1986/87 Fleer basketball. However, there has been some anomalies that have popped up. Several years ago we were looking through the backs of the packs on a back to view the sticker showing. This helps us determine if the box has had packs switched in and out of it, or if it is a box that is still in its original form from Fleer. I was looking at the back and something crazy was staring at me. It was a Pittsburgh Pirates logo cards. Then another pack had a Kansas City Royals card on back. In 1986, it wasn’t all that important to get it completely correct on the printing. Remember, this stuff was worthless garbage. It probably was at some point they were printing Fleer Basketball Stickers and the Fleer Baseball Stickers (probably came in the 1986 Fleer baseball update set). The point was to print this stuff and get it shipped out. Also, if you look at VCP for the Jordan Sticker, you will see a listing for one with a Cincinnati Reds overlay graded by BGS to confirm this. Then a few years ago, Vegas Dave did a live break on a 1986/87 Fleer basketball box where he had celebrities call in and virtually open a pack. While we were watching this live break, something very rare and odd happened. A pack was opened and it had 2 of the same card back to back. I cant remember exactly who the card was, but for example it was Sedale Threatt fallowed by another Sedale Threatt. And/or there was a pack that had Louis Orr, followed by another card, then followed by another Louis Orr (not exactly sure on the player as this is just an example). Again, this is something we had really never seen before. The whole box was opened and everything about it was 100% good. So this is just another example that while rare, strange things happen.

So that brings us to this box in question. I was informed by email from someone that the cards were coming out in the completely wrong order with multiple cards in the packs (someone told me there was something like 4 Magic Johnsons in a pack). My first reaction was wondering what was going on here. So my team and I sat down and wrote down each and every card in the packs that we can find that were opened and now on the internet. We then studied it very carefully. The cards were not exactly in an order that was “completely off” (and there weren’t 4 Magic Johnsons in one pack, there were 4 Johnsons in one pack, all being a different Johnson). The cards still went in reverse alphabetical order in the packs. They just didn’t have the second run of alphabetical cards intertwined in them. There is also a point where there are doubles back to back. But more importantly, there is a pack where the cards run in this reverse order, then flip the other direction. Then this happens again in another pack in the EXACT same spot. Here were the runs:

Pack A Pack B
Tisdale Thompson
Threatt FLIP TO BLACKMON
Thompson Birdsong
FLIP TO BLACKMON Bird
Birdsong Benjamin
Bird Barkley
Benjamin Bailey
Barkley Bagley
Bailey Ainge
Bagley AGuirre
Ainge Adams
AGuirre Abdul-Jabbar

So as you can see, these packs are not “completely off” in the collation. In fact, the collation is actually spot-on, less the second alphabetical run. I have been doing this basically everyday of my life for the past 33 years. I have seen it all. I have studied not only the packs themselves, but opened the resealed ones to get a feel for the cards also. It would pretty much take the mind of a serial killer to take the cards like this and then have them flip over in the exact same spot then pick up the same alphabetical order again, in 2 different packs.
An addition, we closely watched the packs being ripped open. Not only are the flaps opening the way they should on good packs, the “inner guts”, as I like to call them, are opening correctly also (These are the inner folds of the packs where they got heat/waxed together).

Finally, I have heard some chatter that the Jordan cards graded low. From watching the video of a Jordan card being hit, you can clearly see that the Jordan is centered off to the top (hence the 7 grade) and is centered basically just like the surrounding cards in the pack. Without having the cards in hand to see the condition details, they could very well be mint cards, but get the lower grade of 7 because that’s the best the centering will allow.

Every advanced collector will tell you that when companies made certain collation patterns (for example 1975 through 1981 Topps baseball rack and cello) that there are anomalies that occur. Even if the collation is correct 99.5% of the time, there is and can be an anomaly. Remember, the idea was to print/package/and ship this stuff out ASAP.
In my opinion, this box has not been tampered with nor been resealed. I always knew this would happen someday. I figured that someday someone would open a box that was just crazy off. People would view it as counterfeit/resealed/tampered with. However, as we have just now seen, these things can and will happen. And it will happen again.

Thanks! BBCE

Steve Hart-Owner
Baseball Card Exchange, Inc.
2412 US Highway 41
Schererville, Indiana 46375
(800)598-8656
www.bbce.com
bbcexchange@sprintmail.com

[discodanman45]

Originally Posted by jr24ai3

Every advanced collector will tell you that when companies made certain collation patterns (for example 1975 through 1981 Topps baseball rack and cello) that there are anomalies that occur. Even if the collation is correct 99.5% of the time, there is and can be an anomaly. Remember, the idea was to print/package/and ship this stuff out ASAP.

The issue is this was a box made from multiple boxes. The weirdness was in all of the packs. If the packs from one box was weird, that is one thing. All the packs were weird. What are chances that all the packs from different boxes combined into this Frankenbox all had this weird anomaly?

[Thebirdman321]

Originally Posted by jr24ai3

Posted on the collectors/PSA forum.

The following is from Steve himself:

Let me explain how 1986/87 Fleer basketball collation runs within the packs. The cards come in the packs in reverse alphabetical order (Z to A) in 2 separate groups separated by 66. For example,

125
59
124
58
123
57
122
56
121
55

As you can see, the 2 groups of numbers are in reverse alphabetical order, intertwined within each other, separated by 66. This is how people can search out the packs with Jordan in them (or any other card). You just need to see what the top card is and the run is easily figured out.

This pattern is very consistent throughout the print run for 1986/87 Fleer basketball. However, there has been some anomalies that have popped up. Several years ago we were looking through the backs of the packs on a back to view the sticker showing. This helps us determine if the box has had packs switched in and out of it, or if it is a box that is still in its original form from Fleer. I was looking at the back and something crazy was staring at me. It was a Pittsburgh Pirates logo cards. Then another pack had a Kansas City Royals card on back. In 1986, it wasn’t all that important to get it completely correct on the printing. Remember, this stuff was worthless garbage. It probably was at some point they were printing Fleer Basketball Stickers and the Fleer Baseball Stickers (probably came in the 1986 Fleer baseball update set). The point was to print this stuff and get it shipped out. Also, if you look at VCP for the Jordan Sticker, you will see a listing for one with a Cincinnati Reds overlay graded by BGS to confirm this. Then a few years ago, Vegas Dave did a live break on a 1986/87 Fleer basketball box where he had celebrities call in and virtually open a pack. While we were watching this live break, something very rare and odd happened. A pack was opened and it had 2 of the same card back to back. I cant remember exactly who the card was, but for example it was Sedale Threatt fallowed by another Sedale Threatt. And/or there was a pack that had Louis Orr, followed by another card, then followed by another Louis Orr (not exactly sure on the player as this is just an example). Again, this is something we had really never seen before. The whole box was opened and everything about it was 100% good. So this is just another example that while rare, strange things happen.

So that brings us to this box in question. I was informed by email from someone that the cards were coming out in the completely wrong order with multiple cards in the packs (someone told me there was something like 4 Magic Johnsons in a pack). My first reaction was wondering what was going on here. So my team and I sat down and wrote down each and every card in the packs that we can find that were opened and now on the internet. We then studied it very carefully. The cards were not exactly in an order that was “completely off” (and there weren’t 4 Magic Johnsons in one pack, there were 4 Johnsons in one pack, all being a different Johnson). The cards still went in reverse alphabetical order in the packs. They just didn’t have the second run of alphabetical cards intertwined in them. There is also a point where there are doubles back to back. But more importantly, there is a pack where the cards run in this reverse order, then flip the other direction. Then this happens again in another pack in the EXACT same spot. Here were the runs:

Pack A Pack B
Tisdale Thompson
Threatt FLIP TO BLACKMON
Thompson Birdsong
FLIP TO BLACKMON Bird
Birdsong Benjamin
Bird Barkley
Benjamin Bailey
Barkley Bagley
Bailey Ainge
Bagley AGuirre
Ainge Adams
AGuirre Abdul-Jabbar

So as you can see, these packs are not “completely off” in the collation. In fact, the collation is actually spot-on, less the second alphabetical run. I have been doing this basically everyday of my life for the past 33 years. I have seen it all. I have studied not only the packs themselves, but opened the resealed ones to get a feel for the cards also. It would pretty much take the mind of a serial killer to take the cards like this and then have them flip over in the exact same spot then pick up the same alphabetical order again, in 2 different packs.
An addition, we closely watched the packs being ripped open. Not only are the flaps opening the way they should on good packs, the “inner guts”, as I like to call them, are opening correctly also (These are the inner folds of the packs where they got heat/waxed together).

Finally, I have heard some chatter that the Jordan cards graded low. From watching the video of a Jordan card being hit, you can clearly see that the Jordan is centered off to the top (hence the 7 grade) and is centered basically just like the surrounding cards in the pack. Without having the cards in hand to see the condition details, they could very well be mint cards, but get the lower grade of 7 because that’s the best the centering will allow.

Every advanced collector will tell you that when companies made certain collation patterns (for example 1975 through 1981 Topps baseball rack and cello) that there are anomalies that occur. Even if the collation is correct 99.5% of the time, there is and can be an anomaly. Remember, the idea was to print/package/and ship this stuff out ASAP.
In my opinion, this box has not been tampered with nor been resealed. I always knew this would happen someday. I figured that someday someone would open a box that was just crazy off. People would view it as counterfeit/resealed/tampered with. However, as we have just now seen, these things can and will happen. And it will happen again.

Thanks! BBCE

Steve Hart-Owner
Baseball Card Exchange, Inc.
2412 US Highway 41
Schererville, Indiana 46375
(800)598-8656
www.bbce.com
bbcexchange@sprintmail.com

I don’t buy this for a minute lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ShaqMagic]

Originally Posted by jr24ai3

So my team and I sat down and wrote down each and every card in the packs that we can find that were opened and now on the internet.

Did you include this video- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uu-wQsrvLqs - when you did this? You can't see the cards, but they read out the names. I believe the first pack is opened at 1:22:30. edit-oh im a dumbo and didn't realize you weren't steve.