MUST READ TRIMMING THREAD: COMC- HawkDynasty,cccardfactory,LORDSTANLEY2012|PWCC|ih8ca

[Bo Hunter]

Originally Posted by corndog

PSA Cert #25243703

1979 Topps Ozzie Smith #116

Value gain of $707.50

Current PSA Registry Sets:
This cert is currently in Set Registry inventory and is featured in one or more sets, including LStone4951's 1979 Topps Hall of Fame Set.

This card was purchased by Ebay ID card-buyer from Ebay seller mkmoe23 as a PSA 8 for $102.50 on October 11, 2015.
VCP link: https://vintagecardprices.com/card/b...=&limit=999999

Same card was sold by PWCC as a PSA 9 for $810.00 on April 17, 2016.
PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1266346

Yellow circles are print, fiber, or chipping identifiers.
Red box identifies trimmed right edge. No back image provided with first sale data

Is this the same card? Do you have scans of the back? While there are some similarities, there are also at least a few striking differences.

The Topps baseball logo looks completely different. Is this just an artifact from a bad scan perhaps on the PSA 8 version? Also, the top black border line looks much thicker in the 8 than the 9. Also, there is a white speck to the left of his sideburn in the 8 that is missing in the 9. And he seems to have picked up some dandruff in the 9 on toward the bottom right of the card. Scans of the back would help out a lot for this card IMO. Also, the similarities in discoloration of the red/orange aren't exactly the same...

[tconte]

Looks the same to me.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by Bo Hunter

I'm curious about the legal aspect of this scandal. I'm fairly ignorant about what would and wouldn't constitute criminal activity.

I think it's fairly obvious that it's immoral to trim a card for monetary gain, and that it's unquestionably criminal to create a counterfeit card and attempt to sell it as an original, but is it actually a crime to trim an authentic card? I apologize if this has been discussed ad nauseum somewhere already, but I haven't encountered this discussion yet if so. Are there any lawyers in here that can help shed light on the issue? pip, are you a lawyer by chance?

If I were to guess, I would think it's highly unlikely for the act of trimming a card to be a crime, but again, I'm completely ignorant here. Reselling said trimmed card though? That's probably where the legality becomes more interesting. Anyone know how this might expect to shake out in a court of law? 1) the act of trimming a card, and 2) the selling of a trimmed card, specifically without disclosure?

It seems quite plausible to me that even if the FBI were to uncover absolute proof of Gary Moser trimming cards for a profit, that he may not even be able to be prosecuted for it. It likely hangs on how the courts define fraud in the first place.

Also, if it's not even a crime to begin with, where do you think that leaves us? My gut tells me that heads will not be rolling when this is all said and done. I hope I'm wrong, but the path to that end seems rather murky to me.

I am a lawyer, and this subject has in fact been covered ad nauseum here and on Net 54 by me and others. I am sorry you are late to the party but suggest you read some threads in the May June timeframe where this was explained.

[superdan49]

No back image was provided by seller mkmoe23 in the original auction. BH you need to subscribe to vintagecardprices.com to follow some of these posts. N.B., the Ozzie Smith cards are definitely the same.

[pip]

Originally Posted by Bo Hunter

Wasn't me.

That's unfortunate. Your "aw shucks, trimmin' and alterin' ain't so bad" perspective is tiresome. Pick whatever moniker you like: troll, PWCC shill, idiot, etc.

[pip]

Originally Posted by Bo Hunter

Is this the same card? Do you have scans of the back? While there are some similarities, there are also at least a few striking differences.

The Topps baseball logo looks completely different. Is this just an artifact from a bad scan perhaps on the PSA 8 version? Also, the top black border line looks much thicker in the 8 than the 9. Also, there is a white speck to the left of his sideburn in the 8 that is missing in the 9. And he seems to have picked up some dandruff in the 9 on toward the bottom right of the card. Scans of the back would help out a lot for this card IMO. Also, the similarities in discoloration of the red/orange aren't exactly the same...

If you can't tell those are the same card then perhaps you should spend less time typing and buying cards from PWCC, and more time reading and studying. Try to absorb information instead of just continually vomiting nonsense.

[gmoney328]

Originally Posted by pip

If you can't tell those are the same card then perhaps you should spend less time typing and buying cards from PWCC, and more time reading and studying. Try to absorb information instead of just continually vomiting nonsense.

Totally on your side here pip, but given the quality of the scan on the left, there are some differences between the two. I thought the same thing myself, and though it almost assuredly is the same card, it isn't unreasonable to ask.

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by gmoney328

Totally on your side here pip, but given the quality of the scan on the left, there are some differences between the two. I thought the same thing myself, and though it almost assuredly is the same card, it isn't unreasonable to ask.

Look at the white border of the untrimmed left edge, parallel to the brim of Ozzie's hat. There are a few slight notches or indentations that match up precisely. Also look at the area of slight white wear between the letter N and letter D on his jersey. The original scan is not good, but they are definitely the same card. Corndog is the best in the business at finding matches, bar none.

[gmoney328]

Originally Posted by superdan49

Look at the white border of the untrimmed left edge, parallel to the brim of Ozzie's hat. There are a few slight notches or indentations that match up precisely. Also look at the area of slight white wear between the letter N and letter D on his jersey. The original scan is not good, but they are definitely the same card. Corndog is the best in the business at finding matches, bar none.

Upon further review, verdict = GUILTY. Someone hacked that card pretty hard.

[Bruins1993]

Originally Posted by gmoney328

Upon further review, verdict = GUILTY. Someone hacked that card pretty hard.

Now we have funny business with images to make matching before/after harder... crooks get more crafty with time!

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by pip

That's unfortunate. Your "aw shucks, trimmin' and alterin' ain't so bad" perspective is tiresome. Pick whatever moniker you like: troll, PWCC shill, idiot, etc.

He's stuck, I think, somewhere between Schopenhauer's first two stages of truth (ridicule and opposition).

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by pspa123

He's stuck, I think, somewhere between Schopenhauer's first two stages of truth (ridicule and opposition).

I think you are on the right Trail.

I do suppose that's better than being stuck somewhere between Freud's first two stages of psychosexual development.

[Bo Hunter]

Originally Posted by pip

That's unfortunate. Your "aw shucks, trimmin' and alterin' ain't so bad" perspective is tiresome. Pick whatever moniker you like: troll, PWCC shill, idiot, etc.

Is it always your intention to send the words and viewpoints of others through a wood chipper prior to posting or have I just become your new favorite "friend"?

[Bo Hunter]

Originally Posted by pip

If you can't tell those are the same card then perhaps you should spend less time typing and buying cards from PWCC, and more time reading and studying. Try to absorb information instead of just continually vomiting nonsense.

I'd like to extend a personal invitation for you to continue trolling and ridiculing me. It'll be fun and you can even make some new friends doing it! You can continue being the fun loving guy you've never been, $#!++ing on my every post and I'll never even know it because I won't be able to see it.

[ThoseBackPages]

PBMs all up in hea

[Bo Hunter]

Originally Posted by superdan49

Look at the white border of the untrimmed left edge, parallel to the brim of Ozzie's hat. There are a few slight notches or indentations that match up precisely. Also look at the area of slight white wear between the letter N and letter D on his jersey. The original scan is not good, but they are definitely the same card. Corndog is the best in the business at finding matches, bar none.

The notches are the strongest case for them being the same card IMO. But the baseball logo differences make for a pretty strong case against them being the same. Perhaps it's my monitor producing artifacts, but if not how am I the only person talking about the baseball logos? Do you guys really not see that?

[Bo Hunter]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

PBMs all up in hea

PM me your shipping address. I have some tin-foil to send you.

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by Bo Hunter

PM me your shipping address. I have some tin-foil to send you.

Dude, are you feeling guilty? lol

you already said you passed the test.

some of these other "newbs"? not so much

[pip]

Originally Posted by Bo Hunter

The notches are the strongest case for them being the same card IMO. But the baseball logo differences make for a pretty strong case against them being the same. Perhaps it's my monitor producing artifacts, but if not how am I the only person talking about the baseball logos? Do you guys really not see that?

No, they don't. Adjusting for color and contrast and registration, the details are an EXACT match. Beyond that, there are at least 20 different identifying marks that match. The sellers used two different quality scanners. Maybe that's throwing you off

[geomon]

It's not hard to figure out. The PSA 8 was upscaled from a lower resolution scan (which is why some of the details are fuzzy) and the
9 is an actual high resolution scan. Both share the exact same imperfections on the surface. It's the same card, not even a question about it.

[Empty77]

Originally Posted by pip

No, they don't. Adjusting for color and contrast and registration, the details are an EXACT match. Beyond that, there are at least 20 different identifying marks that match. The sellers used two different quality scanners. Maybe that's throwing you off

This.

(And Dear BH, since you claim to be new again to the hobby, then presumably you haven't had the need of a scanner to scan your own things? If you seriously doubt matches like this, and aren't just taking the piss to troll up the thread, then you should consider getting your own scanner and practice for a bit on your own stuff, then you'll see: fiddling with the brightest/contrast settings = the color differences you noted; skimp on the resolution to save disk space with a smaller file = the blurriness you noted [the whole 8 scan is blurry, even the flip, demonstrating it isn't the card itself but the whole scan]; the white flecks you mention: in my experience virtually always just common house dust on the scanner bed; etc.)

[MoreToppsPlease]

I wonder if the FBI is able to capture fingerprints on these cards.

[Bo Hunter]

Originally Posted by Empty77

This.

(And Dear BH, since you claim to be new again to the hobby, then presumably you haven't had the need of a scanner to scan your own things? If you seriously doubt matches like this, and aren't just taking the piss to troll up the thread, then you should consider getting your own scanner and practice for a bit on your own stuff, then you'll see: fiddling with the brightest/contrast settings = the color differences you noted; skimp on the resolution to save disk space with a smaller file = the blurriness you noted [the whole 8 scan is blurry, even the flip, demonstrating it isn't the card itself but the whole scan]; the white flecks you mention: in my experience virtually always just common house dust on the scanner bed; etc.)

OK, I'm sold. Same card.

Ya, I just bought a nice CCD scanner last week to scan my cards with (Epson V600). Works great! Much better than the scanner on my all-in-one printer. I've bought about 15k worth of singles since I signed up here a few weeks ago lol, so I figured I may as well get a nice scanner to catalog my collection with.

ngs428 posted a really nice scanning guide (link below) that I used to tweak my settings with. It's really well written. I get great results with his settings. Here's a scan of my Jordan 86 Fleer using my Epson V600. Just got this back from PSA last week after crossing it over from SGC.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1174390

[Bo Hunter]

Originally Posted by pspa123

I am a lawyer, and this subject has in fact been covered ad nauseum here and on Net 54 by me and others. I am sorry you are late to the party but suggest you read some threads in the May June timeframe where this was explained.

Awesome, thank you. I'll do some digging and try to find it.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by Bo Hunter

Awesome, thank you. I'll do some digging and try to find it.

Bottom line, just trimming a card, no crime. Knowingly submitting a trimmed card to a TPG with intent to deceive and then selling it without disclosure, fraud. Selling it in interstate commerce using mail or wires (internet), federal mail/wire fraud.