2017-18 Flawless patch source material (retired players)

[Deadshot]

I meant to do this sooner, but I want to talk about my favorite set of the last year - Flawless Patches.

When I saw the mock-ups for this set, I was kinda bummed out that they changed back to the vertical design. Once the set actually came out, I was sold. One thing that I really like is that most of the jerseys pictured on the card actually match the color of the source material. This doesn't sound like a big deal, but Panini had screwed up teams like the Pistons for years. Check out this Joe Dumars I was able to pick up. Can you imagine how bad this would look with a picture of a blue jersey instead of teal?



I know there's been a lot of debate in past years about player worn vs. game worn, patch provenance, etc. But Panini's retired player materials have always been fairly easy to track. The key is to find the big auctions of the year and start looking around April or May. I notice they generally stick with SCP's HOF auction, Goldin Auctions, and Heritage Auctions.

Earlier this year, fellow Blowout member Harper and I were talking about the Ron Harper patches included in Immaculate. At first glance, we thought they might be trying to pass Clippers material off for a Bulls card. They've done stuff like this before.



After a little bit of digging, I figured out Panini bought a set of Bulls warmups from Heritage auctions and it was a part of the collar.

https://sports.ha.com/itm/basketball.../50002-51357.s



While he was able to snag the 1/1 Bull eye for his collection, I managed to pick up one of the horns. Both pieces are from the giant patch on the back of the jacket:



If the source is an actual jersey, I generally try to match the patch pieces/jersey holes with the pictures. Goldin's auctions are awesome because the pictures are high quality and zoom pretty much to the exact size.

For example, they had 2 Dumars jerseys and I could tell mine was from the first link instead of the second because the alignment of the jersey holes was different. Panini might have purchased the second as well, but it wasn't used for my specific card.

https://goldinauctions.com/1996_97_J...-lot40729.aspx

https://goldinauctions.com/1998_99_J...-lot40736.aspx



Anyway, I didn't go through and match up every player, but here are a set of matches I came up with quickly that I feel pretty confident about:

Calvin Murphy
https://goldinauctions.com/1981_82_C...-lot40670.aspx

Bernard King
https://goldinauctions.com/1982_83_B...-lot40650.aspx

Magic Johnson
https://goldinauctions.com/1987_88_M...-lot40682.aspx

Steve Kerr
https://goldinauctions.com/1989_90_S...-lot40655.aspx

Chris Mullin
https://goldinauctions.com/1991_92_C...-lot40668.aspx

John Starks
https://goldinauctions.com/1991_92_J...-lot40678.aspx

Nick Van Exel
https://goldinauctions.com/1995_96_N...-lot40676.aspx

Joe Dumars
https://goldinauctions.com/1996_97_J...-lot40729.aspx

Rik Smits
https://goldinauctions.com/1996_97_R...-lot40711.aspx

Ron Harper
https://sports.ha.com/itm/basketball.../50002-51357.s

On a more personal note, they also included 5 Pacers players in the set, which was pretty exciting for me. I wish they had Oladipo instead of Al Jefferson, but maybe next year? If you've read this far and are interested, maybe I'll show off my Pacers hoard here.

Thanks for reading!

[Avi]

Great research, thanks for the info!

[hairyangryfella]

Good info, well done for tracking down.

The issue I have with a lot of Goldin items is that the majority of them have absolutely no provenance, just a letter of opinion from Dave M.
Goldin Auctions sponsor Game Used Universe where Dave is a major member too.
It just seems... Too easy. I like proof or a reliable source for my items, anything from Dave I consider possibly real but who the hell knows. And of course they cost less to purchase because of that doubt - great for Panini - lower outlay and the fallback of 'we believed we were buying legit on auction'.
Then again there is so little hope to verify anything they put in cards anyway. A few years ago they had a buyer on NBA Auctions but since the IDs were hidden you can no longer tell.
So you do research and find they used an item 'implied' that it was 'likely' worn by ol' Dave, or you 'hope' they obtained the modern jersey from a reputable connection. Ignorance truly is bliss.
At least it's better than player worn...

[rj.cataldo]

Originally Posted by hairyangryfella

Good info, well done for tracking down.

The issue I have with a lot of Goldin items is that the majority of them have absolutely no provenance, just a letter of opinion from Dave M.
Goldin Auctions sponsor Game Used Universe where Dave is a major member too.
It just seems... Too easy. I like proof or a reliable source for my items, anything from Dave I consider possibly real but who the hell knows. And of course they cost less to purchase because of that doubt - great for Panini - lower outlay and the fallback of 'we believed we were buying legit on auction'.
Then again there is so little hope to verify anything they put in cards anyway. A few years ago they had a buyer on NBA Auctions but since the IDs were hidden you can no longer tell.
So you do research and find they used an item 'implied' that it was 'likely' worn by ol' Dave, or you 'hope' they obtained the modern jersey from a reputable connection. Ignorance truly is bliss.
At least it's better than player worn...

I agree with all of this. That said, I would say most items I’ve seen from the 90s and earlier usually lack solid provenance. Sometimes there is a note, or a team letter which helps, but nothing that couldn’t be easily reproduced.

I’m not big into vintage game used, but I can’t remember seeing many pieces that I felt really good about. I generally stick to modern game used and the chain of custody like authentication used by Meigray or MLB, or something I can ideally photomatch.

I will say though that I’m encouraged that many of the Panini pieces can at least be tracked to major auction houses (rather than anonymous dealer). As you said, it may not be ironclad but it’s better than player used!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lee42]

Thanks for this info!!!

I love this set....have about 6 or 7 cards coming in mostly legends and I have been able to match my Magic patch to where it come from in the jersey you linked above.

Like you I really love this design.

[WillC]

This is my type of thread.

Amazing research as always.

[james23wcr]

Great information. You're so right about getting a patch that matches the jersey that the players wearing in the photo. It's little things like that that make a good card a great card.

[Deadshot]

Originally Posted by Avi

Great research, thanks for the info!

You're welcome. I hope it comes in handy for you!

Originally Posted by hairyangryfella

Good info, well done for tracking down.

The issue I have with a lot of Goldin items is that the majority of them have absolutely no provenance, just a letter of opinion from Dave M.
Goldin Auctions sponsor Game Used Universe where Dave is a major member too.
It just seems... Too easy. I like proof or a reliable source for my items, anything from Dave I consider possibly real but who the hell knows. And of course they cost less to purchase because of that doubt - great for Panini - lower outlay and the fallback of 'we believed we were buying legit on auction'.
Then again there is so little hope to verify anything they put in cards anyway. A few years ago they had a buyer on NBA Auctions but since the IDs were hidden you can no longer tell.
So you do research and find they used an item 'implied' that it was 'likely' worn by ol' Dave, or you 'hope' they obtained the modern jersey from a reputable connection. Ignorance truly is bliss.
At least it's better than player worn...

Thank you for this post. I was unaware of the connection between Dave M. We will never truly know.

Originally Posted by rj.cataldo

I will say though that I’m encouraged that many of the Panini pieces can at least be tracked to major auction houses (rather than anonymous dealer). As you said, it may not be ironclad but it’s better than player used!

Agreed. I'm surprised Panini hasn't taken basketball the same route as football lately. Most of the retired player material is now "player worn." I saw a Peyton Manning patch from a 2018 product that's player worn. I know there are a lot less football jerseys to work with, but come on...

Originally Posted by Lee42

Thanks for this info!!!

I love this set....have about 6 or 7 cards coming in mostly legends and I have been able to match my Magic patch to where it come from in the jersey you linked above.

Like you I really love this design.

I have yet to pick up a Magic but hope to do so some day! I need to get pics of my Pacers hoard though

Originally Posted by WillC

This is my type of thread.

Amazing research as always.

Thanks, Will. I need to track down where that Kareem patch you sold me came from. I'm pretty sure it was a warmup jacket but I haven't really dug in yet.

Originally Posted by james23wcr

Great information. You're so right about getting a patch that matches the jersey that the players wearing in the photo. It's little things like that that make a good card a great card.

Panini really deserves a lot of credit for that this year. If you look at this set, most of the retired guys are pictured correctly. Off of the top of my head, I know Paul Silas isn't, but I can't think of too many more.

[Jasondr91]

Love threads like this. I'm amazed when you see what prices for say the Bernard King go for. He's basically in everything Panini, and the jersey ran them close to $2K? I'm also curious how many jersey pieces typically come from a standard jersey. Also, I've never seen the tags from a Bernard gamer used in the cards. I wonder where they are going? (I collect patch autos of BK30)

Interesting to see the Ron Harper coat was autographed. Now, I wonder if Panini would ever consider making redemptions for an entire game worn piece? Imagine someone hitting a full gamer from the 70's or 80s? Regardless the player.....hell even a Fat Lever full jersey would be awesome. Expensive.....but awesome to do. Leave it for their super high end release.

[Deadshot]

I haven't seen many Bernard tags but here are a few

https://www.worthpoint.com/inventory...treasured+tags

Panini released a video of a Maravich jersey they bought and cut up. Granted, they make way less Maravich cards but they're still using that same jersey years later. I wish they'd make more videos like this.

[Lee42]

Originally Posted by Jasondr91

Love threads like this. I'm amazed when you see what prices for say the Bernard King go for. He's basically in everything Panini, and the jersey ran them close to $2K? I'm also curious how many jersey pieces typically come from a standard jersey. Also, I've never seen the tags from a Bernard gamer used in the cards. I wonder where they are going? (I collect patch autos of BK30)

I remember reading an article in Beckett some years ago saying that from a Yao Ming jersey, UD could get close to 2000 swatches from it.

Most likely a couple of hundred patch pieces (including arm band piping) and the rest plain jersey.

Now these were probably the smallest swatches from the jersey (non patch) but outside of the patch pieces, Panini probably still has quite a lot of material they can use.

Cheers
Matt

[Ober12]

Hey, sorry to unearth this thread but I saw your comment in another thread linking to this. It's really cool the work you've done and I'm trying to do something similar for a few of my cards, my question is how did you know that it was Panini that bought those warmups specifically? Like, if there were 2 of those sold around the same time, would you have been able to tell which one Panini bought? Thanks

[Deadshot]

Originally Posted by Ober12

Hey, sorry to unearth this thread but I saw your comment in another thread linking to this. It's really cool the work you've done and I'm trying to do something similar for a few of my cards, my question is how did you know that it was Panini that bought those warmups specifically? Like, if there were 2 of those sold around the same time, would you have been able to tell which one Panini bought? Thanks

Good question - the main thing I looks for is continuity. Once I find an auction Panini bought multiple pieces from, I feel better about one of those being the source. In this case, I think they might have purchased both teal Dumars jerseys that were up for bid. That means I have to look for loose threads and jersey holes. I believe that was the only Harper warmup ferndale at this time, but if you have a specific example I'd be happy to try and help you out!

[MIRRABB]

Great thread. I have a nice Dumars from this set. I would like the 1/1 but I don't think it's ever shown up.

[cp3ismypc]

Off topic but how do you guys put the photos in your post like that? thanks

[Deadshot]

Originally Posted by MIRRABB

Great thread. I have a nice Dumars from this set. I would like the 1/1 but I don't think it's ever shown up.

My biggest pet peeve with Pistons cards is that most of the time the pics don't match up with the material used. But they nailed these Dumars cards!

Originally Posted by cp3ismypc

Off topic but how do you guys put the photos in your post like that? thanks

You have to host them somewhere and put the URL in between these tags (you'll have to remove the space between the M and G though:

[IM G][/IM G]

[Ober12]

Originally Posted by Deadshot

Good question - the main thing I looks for is continuity. Once I find an auction Panini bought multiple pieces from, I feel better about one of those being the source. In this case, I think they might have purchased both teal Dumars jerseys that were up for bid. That means I have to look for loose threads and jersey holes. I believe that was the only Harper warmup ferndale at this time, but if you have a specific example I'd be happy to try and help you out!

Thanks! This is a rough image of the card I plan on sourcing (should be arriving soon enough), but it's a Dennis Rodman V-Team /10. Once I receive the card I'll double-check it is game worn and look more closely to determine what part (number, collar, etc) of which jersey (home/away) it is from. From there, do I just look for recently auctioned off Rodman Bulls jerseys?

[Deadshot]

Originally Posted by Ober12

Thanks! This is a rough image of the card I plan on sourcing (should be arriving soon enough), but it's a Dennis Rodman V-Team /10. Once I receive the card I'll double-check it is game worn and look more closely to determine what part (number, collar, etc) of which jersey (home/away) it is from. From there, do I just look for recently auctioned off Rodman Bulls jerseys?

Panini hasn't used player-worn for retired basketball players yet, so it should be game worn. Rodman will be tougher because there's so much Rodman stuff out there, but I would start with some of the bigger yearly auctions from Goldin, Heritage, and Hall of Fame. Your link isn't working for me right now because I can't get logged in to Flickr.

[Ober12]

Originally Posted by Deadshot

Panini hasn't used player-worn for retired basketball players yet, so it should be game worn. Rodman will be tougher because there's so much Rodman stuff out there, but I would start with some of the bigger yearly auctions from Goldin, Heritage, and Hall of Fame. Your link isn't working for me right now because I can't get logged in to Flickr.

No worries, thanks for the reply! Once I have the card in hand I'll share more info, right now I've just been trying to outline my next steps

[Deadshot]

Originally Posted by Ober12

No worries, thanks for the reply! Once I have the card in hand I'll share more info, right now I've just been trying to outline my next steps

Just found the pic on my phone (for some reason Flickr works there). Finding that source is gonna be TOUGH but not impossible. It's definitely worth a try!

[Ober12]

The card came in the mail recently, so as promised here it is:



It looks to be a border of a letter or number from a home jersey (which is a nice bonus considering he's pictured in a home jersey on the card). Upon checking Heritage Auctions, there was 1 matching jersey sold there, on Nov 2017. Is there any way to know if I'm looking at the right one? Should I look for other Rodman cards from this set to see if any of them have pieces of his signature (from the back of the jersey)? Thanks for all the help so far!

[Deadshot]

I actually had that auction and one other bookmarked ahead of time for you. The other option could be this one, but now I can't find the date on it.

https://goldinauctions.com/1997_98_D...B-lot8429.aspx

Like I said, Rodman will be incredibly tough. My guess is it's from the same jersey as the Colossal pieces from NT.

https://www.worthpoint.com/inventory...tChannelRadio=

If I were you, I would use those jumbo number pieces to match up the mesh holes on the cards and the auctions. You might also see if they used the gold logoman in any cards recently.

Even after all of that, matching up your piece 100% is going to be difficult. For the smaller patches, there's a good chance they used some leftover stuff as well. They've had multiple white Rodman jerseys in the past.

This should get you started. Feel free to bounce any ideas off of people on this thread and I hope we can figure it out for you!

[Ober12]

I've been researching this, and right now my most promising lead is that 2017-18 Immaculate had a Rodman logoman (but no other jersey parts), and even though I can't find an image of it there are some users on this site that claim it was gold!

My leading theory is that it is the logoman from the HA auction (will try to confirm with those two guys), then most of the patches for that jersey were used in 17-18 NT, with the scraps getting used in cards like this. I still plan on going through all 18-19 sets' checklists to see what other Rodman jersey cards were made recently, and after I can reasonably "prove" this theory I'll do my best to disprove it lol