Issue with PSA

[natsturner]

Hi all -

As many know, I have over the years started to convert or send in much of my collection to PSA as I prefer the holder and such to BGS, but I've recently had some really frustrating experiences. For one, I just got my grades back on a bulk order and one of the cards I sent in was a 1998 Molten Metal Fusion /40 Tim Duncan. That card is certainly less than $2k raw, and the card got a 9 and they just came back and are trying to charge me $1k to keep it in the holder, lol! Feels like extortion honestly, they have my card and are dangling it in front of me to keep it in the grade it received. Granted I sent it in in the bulk service (as I didn't pay that much for it raw) at $8 each, and it probably should have been in the next level up ($20 for cards with Max Declared Value Per Item under $499) or at worst the $1999 and under $75 Max Declared Value Per Item level. It seems they've now made a habit of going through at least my orders and revising up cards they think are worth more and try to charge me more for those cards than the bulk rate.

On the Duncan specifically, the guy who emailed me from PSA referenced some obviously fake/shilled ebay auction from 2017 of a Duncan Fusion /40 at $19k which he found on Worthpoint I guess.

They also had some other ones wrong, like an Iverson 97-98 Autographics I sent in that they are trying to charge me $75 to grade (which would imply a Max Declared Value Per Item between $499 and $1999), as well as a 2003 LeBron Flair Final Edition Row 1 at $75. Both of which are under $499 raw I bet 95 out of 100 times on eBay.

Is it just me or this backwards? IMO it's really BS how they try and charge more to the collector depending on what grade the card gets vs. the true raw cost, and also how they're going about it (relying on shilled auctions, for example). I remember they first did this to me at the National a 5-6 years ago when I got my Kobe Green PMG graded. It got a 7. I originally paid $300 or $400 for the service which at the time was the appropriate level for the raw value at the time but then they came back to me and said "this card is now worth more in the PSA 7 holder, so you need to pay us $700 or we'll crack it out" (it may have been higher than $700 but that's how I remember it). I felt mad about that situation for months later, as the process isn't transparent and they just hold you up at the end.

On their website the service levels differ by "Max Declared Value Per Item", which to me means or should be defined as how much the card is worth raw before it's graded. Let's aside for a second the fact that their costs are the same for each card presumably, it's not like a $10k card costs more to grade than $100 card, it's the same service / holder / material / etc. Why are they trying to grab more money at the end before they ship cards to you depending on what grade they give the card?

I'm really struggling here as you can probably tell with this. It's not the money obviously, although anyone would be insane to pay those three prices for the three cards I mentioned above to have them in PSA holders. It's the process and integrity of the approach. I'm at the point where I'm not going to send in any more cards to them... . I want to like PSA as I like their product, I just don't like these recent examples. I certainly will pay more attention to making sure raw cards I include in bulk orders are under the Max Declared Value Per Item level for that level of service, but the vast majority of them I acquired years upon years ago. For example, that LeBron Final Edition Row 1, I looked it up and I paid $50 for it 10 years ago (it's not in great shape).

Anyone else feel this way / had similar experiences?

-Nat

[KhalDrogo]

Seems to be commonplace now. Upcharge when cards are worth more after grading. It is total BS, just like the rest of their fee structure. Seems like a practice ripe for overgrading so they can upcharge in the better holder. At least if that's going to be your practice, use some real data points to back up your determined declared value.

Like you, I prefer PSA slabs also. But they are beyond FOS. Fees increasing, turnaround times on bulk orders are months (unless you get lucky), new tiers for group submissions, and then crap like this. At least with BGS you know exactly what you're going to pay when you submit, and exactly when you will have your cards back give or take a day or two.

[natsturner]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Seems to be commonplace now. Upcharge when cards are worth more after grading. It is total BS, just like the rest of their fee structure. Seems like a practice ripe for overgrading so they can upcharge in the better holder. At least if that's going to be your practice, use some real data points to back up your determined declared value.

Like you, I prefer PSA slabs also. But they are beyond FOS. Fees increasing, turnaround times on bulk orders are months (unless you get lucky), new tiers for group submissions, and then crap like this. At least with BGS you know exactly what you're going to pay when you submit, and exactly when you will have your cards back give or take a day or two.

Agreed, thank you. BTW - is it clear somewhere on their website that they can upcharge based on value of the card AFTER it's graded? The submission form being based on Max Declared Value Per Item makes it seem like their service levels should be on the RAW value of the card, making their practice of upcharging for cards after they're graded not legit.

[Longshot18]

Two thoughts:

* There is a reason they charge more for higher $ cards. It's their risk. Their risk if they accidentally damage it, their risk if a grade is not what a collector thinks and trashes the company in public, they have some risks associated with shipping. So while the process to grade high end cards is the same as low end cards, the liability they assume when that card enters the building is night and day. But IMO they should come back and merely charge you what the card would have cost to grade, not some excessive penalty fee. So in that manner I feel your pain.

*It does appear that you intentionally try to slip cards through at a lower fee and have been doing this for a while. You mention integrity for PSA, but IMO it goes both ways. I don't think its reasonable to complain when they catch something against their policies. I don't think you are- it seems you are mostly complaining about the huge fee, not the fact they are asking for more in itself. But even if they ask for more money and catch cards being submitted in bulk that should not be, asking for the type of fees they are is Ludacris.

Have you offered to pay the fee it would have cost for these cards? If you do that, and they refuse, I think you have a beef even if you tried get higher cards done cheaper.

What would happen if you say "ok give it back ungraded" then resubmit and pay up front the higher value? Would they come back again or since you paid for the level of service/card you got it not happen? If they are charging more after the fact, and don't have policies about that- I think there is room to make this a legal matter if so inclined. And if they are charging more after the fact and it's part of their policies- well then Id stop using PSA.

[GeechQuest]

You are right in stating that the declared value of the card is 100% the price of the raw card. If we put everything aside, the optics of PSA charging AFTER a card is graded is a horrible look. PSA cannot be lining their pockets off the numerical number a card receives. They just can’t be doing that.

[theleica]

Originally Posted by Longshot18

* There is a reason they charge more for higher $ cards. It's their risk. Their risk if they accidentally damage it, their risk if a grade is not what a collector thinks and trashes the company in public, they have some risks associated with shipping. So while the process to grade high end cards is the same as low end cards, the liability they assume when that card enters the building is night and day. But IMO they should come back and merely charge you what the card would have cost to grade, not some excessive penalty fee. So in that manner I feel your pain.

This is true but the way I read what the OP posted is they are grading and slabbing the card then coming back and saying the value is $XXXX now. What are the risks after the card is graded?

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by natsturner

Agreed, thank you. BTW - is it clear somewhere on their website that they can upcharge based on value of the card AFTER it's graded? The submission form being based on Max Declared Value Per Item makes it seem like their service levels should be on the RAW value of the card, making their practice of upcharging for cards after they're graded not legit.

I don't see it anywhere.

[goodole13]

I prefer PSA holders, too. This is an interesting conversation. You may get more opinions and replies in the grading forum. https://www.blowoutforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=122

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by Longshot18

* There is a reason they charge more for higher $ cards. It's their risk. Their risk if they accidentally damage it, their risk if a grade is not what a collector thinks and trashes the company in public, they have some risks associated with shipping. So while the process to grade high end cards is the same as low end cards, the liability they assume when that card enters the building is night and day.

I understand that. But at the same time, their pricing structure is whack. It costs $75 to grade a $500 card. And now it costs $75 to grade a $200 card that turns into a $500 card when it gems. Add on top of that, you paid for the lower tiered service, which had a longer turnaround time. But they charge you at the higher tiered service and are slower doing it. That's #@#@#@#@ed.

I have an unfavorable view of both grading companies. But I'm not going to stop using them because their services are still beneficial to me, even if it costs more than ever to use them.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by GeechQuest

You are right in stating that the declared value of the card is 100% the price of the raw card. If we put everything aside, the optics of PSA charging AFTER a card is graded is a horrible look. PSA cannot be lining their pockets off the numerical number a card receives. They just can’t be doing that.

Well, they do that.

[natsturner]

Originally Posted by Longshot18

Two thoughts:

* There is a reason they charge more for higher $ cards. It's their risk. Their risk if they accidentally damage it, their risk if a grade is not what a collector thinks and trashes the company in public, they have some risks associated with shipping. So while the process to grade high end cards is the same as low end cards, the liability they assume when that card enters the building is night and day. But IMO they should come back and merely charge you what the card would have cost to grade, not some excessive penalty fee. So in that manner I feel your pain.

*It does appear that you intentionally try to slip cards through at a lower fee and have been doing this for a while. You mention integrity for PSA, but IMO it goes both ways. I don't think its reasonable to complain when they catch something against their policies. I don't think you are- it seems you are mostly complaining about the huge fee, not the fact they are asking for more in itself. But even if they ask for more money and catch cards being submitted in bulk that should not be, asking for the type of fees they are is Ludacris.

Have you offered to pay the fee it would have cost for these cards? If you do that, and they refuse, I think you have a beef even if you tried get higher cards done cheaper.

What would happen if you say "ok give it back ungraded" then resubmit and pay up front the higher value? Would they come back again or since you paid for the level of service/card you got it not happen? If they are charging more after the fact, and don't have policies about that- I think there is room to make this a legal matter if so inclined. And if they are charging more after the fact and it's part of their policies- well then Id stop using PSA.

I'm actually not trying to slip them in. I actually paid the price under the Max Declared Value raw for these cards, just some of them were years ago and most of them there is no sales data recently to say they're higher. For example, on that LeBron I searched PWCC and eBay and couldn't find anything... So I went with what I paid for it (which I had in my records). Same on the Iverson, I pulled that card raw and couldn't find any legit auctions for it, and I bought similar star players in the set for under $100 at the time (Garnett, Ray Allen, Tim Duncan, Vince Carter, etc.).

[GeechQuest]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Well, they do that.

I was always under the assumption the declared value of the card, and subsequent level the card is submitted under, was based on the raw card value. That’s how it’s been for me the few times I’ve submitted, though I’ve never sent in a high value item for grading.

[Longshot18]

Originally Posted by natsturner

I'm actually not trying to slip them in. I actually paid the price under the Max Declared Value raw for these cards, just some of them were years ago and most of them there is no sales data recently to say they're higher. For example, on that LeBron I searched PWCC and eBay and couldn't find anything... So I went with what I paid for it (which I had in my records). Same on the Iverson, I pulled that card raw and couldn't find any legit auctions for it, and I bought similar star players in the set for under $100 at the time (Garnett, Ray Allen, Tim Duncan, Vince Carter, etc.).

Ah, that was not clear. Or perhaps I mis interpreted. My apologies

[notfast]

Originally Posted by natsturner

Hi all -

As many know, I have over the years started to convert or send in much of my collection to PSA as I prefer the holder and such to BGS, but I've recently had some really frustrating experiences. For one, I just got my grades back on a bulk order and one of the cards I sent in was a 1998 Molten Metal Fusion /40 Tim Duncan. That card is certainly less than $2k raw, and the card got a 9 and they just came back and are trying to charge me $1k to keep it in the holder, lol! Feels like extortion honestly, they have my card and are dangling it in front of me to keep it in the grade it received. Granted I sent it in in the bulk service (as I didn't pay that much for it raw) at $8 each, and it probably should have been in the next level up ($20 for cards with Max Declared Value Per Item under $499) or at worst the $1999 and under $75 Max Declared Value Per Item level. It seems they've now made a habit of going through at least my orders and revising up cards they think are worth more and try to charge me more for those cards than the bulk rate.

On the Duncan specifically, the guy who emailed me from PSA referenced some obviously fake/shilled ebay auction from 2017 of a Duncan Fusion /40 at $19k which he found on Worthpoint I guess.

You have to look at it from their point of view.

If everyone went off what they paid or what they wanted to declare a value of, no one would pay the high dollar service on high dollar cards.

If the only comp (shilled or not - how should PSA know this?) is $19k, that's what they have to go off of. Max value of $24999 1 day service.

I agree that is BS to charge the FULL fee but it's pretty ridiculous to put multi thousand dollar cards in a bulk order as well.

They've been cracking down on the bulk DV $499 across the board. I still think that if you have a $600 card you will be fine. $6k, not so much.

[Longshot18]

Originally Posted by theleica

This is true but the way I read what the OP posted is they are grading and slabbing the card then coming back and saying the value is $XXXX now. What are the risks after the card is graded?

Technically if they have graded it out at a good grade for the card/era then by definition nothing happened to the card and the risk is indeed minimized. But that's not how risk/liability practices in businesses work. Its like car insurance- you can't drive daily w/o insurance and never have an accident and the day you finally do just wanna pay for that day's insurance. The company assumed the chance of risk even if it does not happen.

That is why they, IMO, rightfully charge more up front for higher $ cards- because of what could happen, not a retrospective look at what did happen.

Now, charging excess fees based on what it now is based on grade and using whacked out comps to do so as the OP states is an entirely different ball of wax that seems scummy at the least, perhaps against policies and legally challengable at the most.

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

I understand that. But at the same time, their pricing structure is whack. It costs $75 to grade a $500 card. And now it costs $75 to grade a $200 card that turns into a $500 card when it gems. Add on top of that, you paid for the lower tiered service, which had a longer turnaround time. But they charge you at the higher tiered service and are slower doing it. That's #@#@#@#@ed.

I have an unfavorable view of both grading companies. But I'm not going to stop using them because their services are still beneficial to me, even if it costs more than ever to use them.

I very clearly mentioned that them coming back after the fact with an excessive fee is wrong. So we don't disagree on them coming back and price gouging.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by GeechQuest

I was always under the assumption the declared value of the card, and subsequent level the card is submitted under, was based on the raw card value. That’s how it’s been for me the few times I’ve submitted, though I’ve never sent in a high value item for grading.

Appears to be a point of emphasis lately. This is not the first time I'm hearing this. Nat's example seems to be extreme, but demonstrates the serious flaws in having such a policy.

Unfortunately, PSA has a monopoly on certain markets, and that allows them to do things like this.

Say you had a raw 1993 SP Jeter. Your dad pulled it in 1993, and you recently discovered his collection. The card should cost $20 to grade as raw declared value is <$499 easily. Six weeks later it miraculously comes back a PSA 9. Most recent sale for a PSA 9 is $8000. Instead of $20, you are forced to pay $200. If it came back a 10, you'd be forced to pay $3000. And you just wanted to keep it as a memory of your dad. So stupid.

[rhigh2390]

One of the many reasons I'm not a fan of grading. I'd much rather spend my money on another card I want than pay a guy to tell me what condition he thinks it is.

To each their own though.

[Longshot18]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Say you had a raw 1993 SP Jeter. Your dad pulled it in 1993, and you recently discovered his collection. The card should cost $20 to grade as raw declared value is <$499 easily. Six weeks later it miraculously comes back a PSA 9. Most recent sale for a PSA 9 is $8000. Instead of $20, you are forced to pay $200. If it came back a 10, you'd be forced to pay $3000. And you just wanted to keep it as a memory of your dad. So stupid.

So does Becket upcharge based on grade? I know they did not as of the last time I had cards graded by them- which was 3 years ago.

Coincidentally one card I submitted was a Jeter 93 SP that graded 8.5. I paid the standard fee, and traded it , prices have since gone up quite a bit, but it was worth significantly more post grading than raw.

[jjohnson814]

I've been feeling the exact same way lately. I prefer their slabs but I'm frustrated with their prices. I paid $1000...!!! to grade my Goodwill LeBron only for them to undergrade as an 8. It seems crazy to charge that much money and I guarantee if I tried to get it in at the lower service level they would have done to me what they did to you. They called me to tell me they couldn't put a custom "Goodwill LeBron" on the label so I know they're scrutinizing values of cards.

Not sure what can be done

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

[Thunderdunk]

They have taken the mindset that they want a piece of the new price from grading if the card was appreciating in value due to the grade. Gone are the days of them providing a service. Misguided in my opinion. Its cost prohibited to use PSA anymore, but maybe that is what they want

[theLUCKYshow]

Sounds like some pretty awful customer service OP. Way to tick off the wrong collector too PSA lol.

And for $1k, couldn't PSA take and record high res images and dimensions of the cards like we've all been clamoring for? I mean, they've got some guy looking up values of submitted cards on Worthpoint, but they don't have time to scan cards and take measurements?

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[RogerGodahell]

I've never liked how they charge more for certain cards depending on it's declared value.

Is the grading process different? I don't think so it's a pretty basic process. How can they charge $20 for one card (most cards) or $5000 for a card declared over $100,000? That's highway robbery imo. For $5000 it better come back in a gold slab.

Im torn because i like PSA slabs but i hate their grading isn't a flat fee.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by Longshot18

So does Becket upcharge based on grade? I know they did not as of the last time I had cards graded by them- which was 3 years ago.

Coincidentally one card I submitted was a Jeter 93 SP that graded 8.5. I paid the standard fee, and traded it , prices have since gone up quite a bit, but it was worth significantly more post grading than raw.

They do not. The most you can pay with BGS (minus insurance and shipping fees), is $52 for a two-day turnaround on an autographed card.

Originally Posted by Thunderdunk

They have taken the mindset that they want a piece of the new price from grading if the card was appreciating in value due to the grade. Gone are the days of them providing a service. Misguided in my opinion. Its cost prohibited to use PSA anymore, but maybe that is what they want

They are the equivalent of a seller who wants close to gem value on a raw card because it looks gem.

With the changes in the grading landscape, you have to be very conscientious of cost and purpose behind your grading.

[goehring9]

One thing that bothers me about this example is - if PSA is able to charge AFTER they grade, isn't it in their interest to up grade cards, in order to show a higher value, thus allowing them to charge more for the grading? I have a couple mid-high end cards I have held back from grading for just this reason.

[pejc300]

I think the spirit of the law is important here. I mean, if I send in a 52 mantle under the $20 service because my dad bought it 50 years ago for $0.05 then that's not being truly honest with the system. I'm not saying that's what you did here, but you did know the Duncan was worth way more then the raw price you put as well as the LeBron and to say there were no comps so you just put down $50 I don't think was the best way to go. It does seem like they could handle it better, however.