Crowdsourcing/crowdfunding a documentary about the current scandals?

[charnick]

Hey gang,

As my Star Pics doc project is now all but dead, I'm turning in earnest to developing a project about the current PWCC/PSA/BGS scandals. Nothing might ever come of it, but wanted to put out the vibe here to crowdsource some ideas.

I don't know if it's a short or a feature, but I think we all agree that more light needs to be shined on this so the collecting public is more aware, and in a way that can be easily digested by the public at large. The current threads can be difficult to follow and the infighting and arguing amongst folks even on the same "side" just muddy the waters and obfuscate matters further, and I want to present a story to the public that explains the situation effectively.

So... my opening questions to you guys are these:

1) Would you be interested in watching something like this?

2) BODA: would you be interested in participating in this project, with all identities and such being protected? (Feel free to PM if any of you aren't comfortable discussing publicly)

3) Would you be willing to contribute to a crowdfunding campaign to help finance the project?

I'd also like to have input on how to best structure a film of this nature, and I also plan on initiating conversations with other doc filmmakers who are sports fans who I know who might be interested in participating. I don't want to do a salacious hit piece, but of course it is to be expected that the major players won't be amenable to participate initially, and the timeline for a project like this would be YEARS in the making.

But I firmly believe that people WANT to tell their story, so I think we can do something with it, but I can't do it alone. And there would also have to be some legal work done initially as well to protect both myself and the participants, and that takes an outlay of cash as well, which goes into my crowdfunding question above.

Just wanted to get some thoughts from you guys before I really dive in and try to make this a reality.

[teosdesserts]

We need to wait until the authorities make their move, jumping the gun a bit as this has only just started.

[charnick]

Originally Posted by teosdesserts

We need to wait until the authorities make their move, jumping the gun a bit as this has only just started.

Well, like I said, the development process for a film is excruciatingly long, and production even more so. My experience as a filmmaker tells me this is exactly the right time to start a project like this.

[HarryLime]

Yeah, for a feature doc, now would be a good time to start production. Ideally, you'd be in production right now. You need to determine what your POV will be. That will dictate all your other decisions as a storyteller.

Arthur

[Lancemountain]

Originally Posted by charnick

Well, like I said, the development process for a film is excruciatingly long, and production even more so. My experience as a filmmaker tells me this is exactly the right time to start a project like this.

This is the perfect time for you IMO, ESPECIALLY if the authorities become involved. Getting interviews with the appropriate people would make it a more serious protect


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[MikePiazzaPC]

so we're looking to take the black eye on OUR hobby and magnify it so it reaches a larger audience.

It's honestly hard enough to attempt to explain yourself when you say you enjoy this hobby as a grown man.

I'm not taking the side of of any "trimmer, scammer" by any stretch of the imagination but this is like owning stock in a company and telling the world, hey, this is why you shouldn't buy into us.

[ThoseBackPages]

id watch it

[mjohnatgt]

Originally Posted by MikePiazzaPC

so we're looking to take the black eye on OUR hobby and magnify it so it reaches a larger audience.

It's honestly hard enough to attempt to explain yourself when you say you enjoy this hobby as a grown man.

I'm not taking the side of of any "trimmer, scammer" by any stretch of the imagination but this is like owning stock in a company and telling the world, hey, this is why you shouldn't buy into us.

Welcome to blowout. We aren't doing the ostrich thing here. Minimizing this event is for the PSA / CU message boards to do, not us.

[Soxfanguy]

Maybe call up Netflix. They will green light anything

[thenwhatjk]

This has always always always been my thought with this stuff

[pip]

Originally Posted by MikePiazzaPC

so we're looking to take the black eye on OUR hobby and magnify it so it reaches a larger audience.

It's honestly hard enough to attempt to explain yourself when you say you enjoy this hobby as a grown man.

I'm not taking the side of of any "trimmer, scammer" by any stretch of the imagination but this is like owning stock in a company and telling the world, hey, this is why you shouldn't buy into us.

True but what is it going to take to clean things up where graded cards offer the protections that we've been promised and provide the guarantees that engender confidence and investment security? (for those of us who think like that)

I'm not so opposed to the existing structures (TPGs, auction houses, dealers) all or nearly all going out of business and starting over with something new where there's an actual fear of repercussions should they screw customers over to the extent that we're current seeing in today's hobby...lest we all end up with this mentality:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIZoVO8ZyyQ

[bigdog2003]

Do you get a producer credit if you donate?

[charnick]

Originally Posted by MikePiazzaPC

so we're looking to take the black eye on OUR hobby and magnify it so it reaches a larger audience.

It's honestly hard enough to attempt to explain yourself when you say you enjoy this hobby as a grown man.

I'm not taking the side of of any "trimmer, scammer" by any stretch of the imagination but this is like owning stock in a company and telling the world, hey, this is why you shouldn't buy into us.

See, here's the thing. I'm not ashamed of being a collector or what I collect. It's an escape for me, and the thought of combining two of things I love the most, collecting and making movies, is very enticing. I also don't find it difficult explaining to anyone else why I collect and why I enjoy it. If you do, that's on you.

But we're not talking penny ante stuff here, we're talking MILLIONS in STOLEN money and there's a story there to be uncovered, and it is my firm belief that that story is compelling to the public at large. I don't think you're taking the side of the charlatans, but this kind of attitude does not serve our (as honest collectors, adults and children alike) interests in the slightest.

Originally Posted by bigdog2003

Do you get a producer credit if you donate?

LOL, all TBD of course, but the general rule of thumb is the more you donate to a crowdfunding campaign, the better the rewards (or credits)!

[rogermaris]

I think you have to first figure out who your audience is. Is this a dry, investigative documentary primarily tailored for the collecting community? Or is your goal to make something more suited for the festival circuit? I feel the biggest mistake would be trying to make something for both audiences that ends up satisfying neither of them, so I would recommend choosing one and focusing on it fully. The following advice assumes you're looking to make something for a broader audience:

Documentaries that explore esoteric subcultures like this walk a razor's edge. In my opinion, they tend to work best when the filmmaker comes from the perspective of an outsider. As an insider, I think you risk taking the issue too seriously -- which sounds counter-intuitive because it IS a serious issue with millions of dollars at stake that I personally care about very much. But to an outsider the whole thing sounds comical. You'll need to take off your collector hat and think about how to make this into something that will not just inform but also entertain.

I think the best reference for a documentary like this is King of Kong: A Fistful of Quarters. It's similar in that it explores a scandal in the vintage gaming community. It does a great job of highlighting the absurdity while simultaneously making you care about the outcome and the people involved. The audience takes it seriously while at the same time not taking it seriously.

For better or for worse, this hobby is full of colorful characters, who will no doubt make interesting documentary subjects. I think you should focus not just on the details of the scandal, but also the emotions and personalities of the people involved. The tricky part is doing it with sensitivity/dignity so that in addition to being entertained, the audience cares about your subjects and the outcome of the investigation.

Now, if you just want to make something for the card collecting community, I would approach it more like a Michael Moore style documentary, which means taking everything a lot more seriously. But because of the inherently absurd nature of this scandal, I don't think outside audiences would find this approach credible. That being said, if your goal is to make something that will inform card collectors, then this is probably the way to go.

Lastly, if your goal is simply to summarize the issue and help people digest it without doing any Michael Moore-style investigative work yourself, then I would recommend doing it as a print article as I don't think the documentary medium would really add anything. A thorough write-up would have the same effect of informing the public while also being MUCH easier to produce.

[charnick]

Originally Posted by rogermaris

I think you have to first figure out who your audience is. Is this a dry, investigative documentary primarily tailored for the collecting community? Or is your goal to make something more suited for the festival circuit? I feel the biggest mistake would be trying to make something for both audiences that ends up satisfying neither of them, so I would recommend choosing one and focusing on it fully. The following advice assumes you're looking to make something for a broader audience:

Documentaries that explore esoteric subcultures like this walk a razor's edge. In my opinion, they tend to work best when the filmmaker comes from the perspective of an outsider. As an insider, I think you risk taking the issue too seriously -- which sounds counter-intuitive because it IS a serious issue with millions of dollars at stake that I personally care about very much. But to an outsider the whole thing sounds comical. You'll need to take off your collector hat and think about how to make this into something that will not just inform but also entertain.

I think the best reference for a documentary like this is King of Kong: A Fistful of Quarters. It's similar in that it explores a scandal in the vintage gaming community. It does a great job of highlighting the absurdity while simultaneously making you care about the outcome and the people involved. The audience takes it seriously while at the same time not taking it seriously.

For better or for worse, this hobby is full of colorful characters, who will no doubt make interesting documentary subjects. I think you should focus not just on the details of the scandal, but also the emotions and personalities of the people involved. The tricky part is doing it with sensitivity/dignity so that in addition to being entertained, the audience cares about your subjects and the outcome of the investigation.

Now, if you just want to make something for the card collecting community, I would approach it more like a Michael Moore style documentary, which means taking everything a lot more seriously. But because of the inherently absurd nature of this scandal, I don't think outside audiences would find this approach credible. That being said, if your goal is to make something that will inform card collectors, then this is probably the way to go.

Lastly, if your goal is simply to summarize the issue and help people digest it without doing any Michael Moore-style investigative work yourself, then I would recommend doing it as a print article as I don't think the documentary medium would really add anything. A thorough write-up would have the same effect of informing the public while also being MUCH easier to produce.

Thanks so much for this very well thought out response! This is definitely the fine line one needs to walk when figuring out the story of these scandals. The project as I currently envision it is primarily focused on the people involved, not just the main players like Brentsy, Moser, Orlando, etc., but to some extent the BODA personalities who have committed their time and energy so tirelessly to this monumental task. One could go down the road of investigative expose, but I'm not a journalist, and I don't want to make a Dateline NBC episode or something that is only for the collecting community.

I've been lucky to play festivals like SXSW, and my films are focused on human issues and the personalities involved. I've told multiple people on the festival circuit that I'm not Michael Moore either, and the overwhelming response from programmers has been "thank god." LOL! King of Kong is a good comp for something like this, and I think there's a good way to shine a light on the evildoers in our hobby, while still telling humanistic stories that can have a larger appeal.

Most likely nothing will come of this, but as I mentioned earlier, I've been wanting to do something that combines my love of collecting and filmmaking for a while now, and thought this might be worth pursuing. Thanks again for your thoughts, this is really great and hopefully we can all keep the conversation moving forward after the holiday and see what possibilities lie ahead.

[base set]

Well, I find Black Labels rather comical, though mostly in a “but this one goes to 11” kind of way. The comedy is not any fraud involved, but the root level concepts. This also makes me wonder if fetish sneaker collecting has had similar troubles, or other ‘collecting’ subcultures that seek so much outside validation of personal decisions that more money can be made supplying that artificial validation than can be made by supplying objective reality. Did Comics go through a similar period of strife with these concepts of Original Condition / Restoration / Authenticity? A key difference to outsiders is that at least with Comics, etc., the key details about the object can be seen with the naked eye. A different contrast would be in flaws in valuable gems - at least those are based on the utilitarian idea of cutting the gem apart to make jewelry. Valuing invisible differences in items kept in a box and not even publicly displayed generally ... that would be an interesting concept to illuminate in a film. Did stamp collecting ever reach this level of ... oddness?

Cards could be graded on a 5 point scale perfectly well and all the services that grading supplies would be delivered just the same - except one. Grading customers (both card sellers and purchasers, with most purchasers also desiring to ultimately be sellers) want a 21 point (0.5 - Black Label) grading scale for the same reasons that a Red /5 is worth more than an Orange /25. Grading lets everyone else in on the economic action that the manufacturers enjoy - what is routinely called ‘artificial’ scarcity. Some of the real factors driving all of this topic are a lot deeper than someone shaving 0.1 mm off a 50 year old piece of pop culture cardboard, though I really doubt many who invest their dollars and emotions in these items really want to consider this very much.

[mjohnatgt]

I always start by phrasing the opening this way: A valued card is the 1954 Topps Hank Aaron rookie card. With a crease and some rounded corners, it might sell for $1,000 in Good (2 out of 10) condition. Take out the creases and it becomes VG-EX 4 and might sell for $2,500. Now envision one being freshly removed from an unopened pack of 1954 Topps now 65 years after manufacture. It might be highly off-centered, or it might have been damaged by dinged corners, or gum or wax stains from sealing the pack with the gum in it. Those might be considered EX-MT and sell for around $5,000.
However, if it came out of the pack perfect (or was stored perfectly for all those years), it might be considered Mint (9 out of 10) with a slight ding or slightly off-centered. Investors would pay up to $200,000 for the same card without visible flaws. And a validated perfect card considered 10 out of 10 condition by a major grading company might top $500,000.
This exponential growth curve in the prices from beautiful looking Excellent cards to ones considered Gem Mint by PSA or Beckett or SGC has brought a sophisticated group of fraudsters to the forefront. Those that can take the crease out of a card by steaming and pressing it, by recoloring flecks of paper loss, or by cutting the edges off cards to remove the corner and edge wear. The companies that stood up 30 years ago to protect collectors from this type of fraud, have been found to be totally inadequate at detecting the alterations that they promote they can. As such, this whole collectible market is at risk due to crumbling consumer confidence in the Third Party Graders that are supposed to protect customers from fraud, and a general outrage for being taken advantage of for so long.
FBI investigations are currently unfolding, determining how networks of card alteration experts have been slipping them by the goalie all this time, or whether the independent grading companies or the auctionhouses are complicit in federal crimes of mail and wire fraud by selling cards without disclosing the alterations.

Or you could just go at it like an episode of Adam Ruins Everything...

[Pink Pussycat]

I would fully support it, watch it, and contribute to it in any way/shape/form possible.

We have done a dreadful job of spreading the word, and this would be a great vehicle for awareness, as well as a very interesting film. Great idea!

[charnick]

Originally Posted by mjohnatgt

I always start by phrasing the opening this way: A valued card is the 1954 Topps Hank Aaron rookie card. With a crease and some rounded corners, it might sell for $1,000 in Good (2 out of 10) condition. Take out the creases and it becomes VG-EX 4 and might sell for $2,500. Now envision one being freshly removed from an unopened pack of 1954 Topps now 65 years after manufacture. It might be highly off-centered, or it might have been damaged by dinged corners, or gum or wax stains from sealing the pack with the gum in it. Those might be considered EX-MT and sell for around $5,000.
However, if it came out of the pack perfect (or was stored perfectly for all those years), it might be considered Mint (9 out of 10) with a slight ding or slightly off-centered. Investors would pay up to $200,000 for the same card without visible flaws. And a validated perfect card considered 10 out of 10 condition by a major grading company might top $500,000.
This exponential growth curve in the prices from beautiful looking Excellent cards to ones considered Gem Mint by PSA or Beckett or SGC has brought a sophisticated group of fraudsters to the forefront. Those that can take the crease out of a card by steaming and pressing it, by recoloring flecks of paper loss, or by cutting the edges off cards to remove the corner and edge wear. The companies that stood up 30 years ago to protect collectors from this type of fraud, have been found to be totally inadequate at detecting the alterations that they promote they can. As such, this whole collectible market is at risk due to crumbling consumer confidence in the Third Party Graders that are supposed to protect customers from fraud, and a general outrage for being taken advantage of for so long.
FBI investigations are currently unfolding, determining how networks of card alteration experts have been slipping them by the goalie all this time, or whether the independent grading companies or the auctionhouses are complicit in federal crimes of mail and wire fraud by selling cards without disclosing the alterations.

Or you could just go at it like an episode of Adam Ruins Everything...

The first part is actually a pretty neat idea, and brings up a question... does anyone have any of those old insert ads PSA includes with this grading shipments? like the ones from Memory Lane and all those other auction house advertisements with prices realized? i always used to thrown mine away of course, but could use a bunch to scan in and create a neat little motion graphic for those cards with insane "prices realized" values that have been discovered to be trimmed.

I know the Namath card that PSA had on what, their FB page or web site was outed, but if any of those from the inserts have been outed as well, it could be a real good way to start off a "sizzle reel" we call 'em to help start to get the word out and look for seed funding.

Anyone have any old ones they'd like to send my way?

[Triple B]

Blowout should have a hand in this too. It's their site that has pushed (and benefitted) from this whole expose. A documentary with Blowout, the Blowout boards and BODA front and center would be priceless advertising.

And YES, this is definitely something I would watch.

[Soxfanguy]

Originally Posted by Triple B

Blowout should have a hand in this too. It's their site that has pushed (and benefitted) from this whole expose. A documentary with Blowout, the Blowout boards and BODA front and center would be priceless advertising.

And YES, this is definitely something I would watch.

Great point. Would show that the hobby people love BO, and that wax is safer

[hexthem4n]

We'd need werner herzog on it

[kykid4uk]

Originally Posted by charnick

Hey gang,

As my Star Pics doc project is now all but dead, I'm turning in earnest to developing a project about the current PWCC/PSA/BGS scandals. Nothing might ever come of it, but wanted to put out the vibe here to crowdsource some ideas.

I don't know if it's a short or a feature, but I think we all agree that more light needs to be shined on this so the collecting public is more aware, and in a way that can be easily digested by the public at large. The current threads can be difficult to follow and the infighting and arguing amongst folks even on the same "side" just muddy the waters and obfuscate matters further, and I want to present a story to the public that explains the situation effectively.

So... my opening questions to you guys are these:

1) Would you be interested in watching something like this?

2) BODA: would you be interested in participating in this project, with all identities and such being protected? (Feel free to PM if any of you aren't comfortable discussing publicly)

3) Would you be willing to contribute to a crowdfunding campaign to help finance the project?

I'd also like to have input on how to best structure a film of this nature, and I also plan on initiating conversations with other doc filmmakers who are sports fans who I know who might be interested in participating. I don't want to do a salacious hit piece, but of course it is to be expected that the major players won't be amenable to participate initially, and the timeline for a project like this would be YEARS in the making.

But I firmly believe that people WANT to tell their story, so I think we can do something with it, but I can't do it alone. And there would also have to be some legal work done initially as well to protect both myself and the participants, and that takes an outlay of cash as well, which goes into my crowdfunding question above.

Just wanted to get some thoughts from you guys before I really dive in and try to make this a reality.

My question to you would be are you creating a documentary or propaganda? Because based on your posts, you aren't remotely unbiased. You talk about exposing the "truth" but that is impossible to do for someone who clearly has a jaded view of the subject you are supposed to be investigating.

So to answer your question, yes, I would probably watch a documentary on the topic. But I would have zero interest in watching something produced by someone who approaches the topic from a biased perspective.

[charnick]

Originally Posted by kykid4uk

My question to you would be are you creating a documentary or propaganda? Because based on your posts, you aren't remotely unbiased. You talk about exposing the "truth" but that is impossible to do for someone who clearly has a jaded view of the subject you are supposed to be investigating.

So to answer your question, yes, I would probably watch a documentary on the topic. But I would have zero interest in watching something produced by someone who approaches the topic from a biased perspective.

Who said I was unbiased? I’m a documentarian, but I never said I was a journalist. That doesn’t mean there still isn’t a singular truth that is still yet to be uncovered or that I wouldn’t give some of the alleged bad actors involved a fair shake. I don’t make hit pieces, and I don’t sensationalize.

BTW, almost every doc is told from the director’s particular point of view. If you want a true unbiased documentary, good luck finding one.