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#1 | |
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BODA
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 4,272
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As readers of Blowout are well aware, most of the TPG-graded altered cards which have been uncovered here since this scandal broke in early 2019 have been trimmed cards. However, while trimming is the most common form of alteration performed by card doctors, it certainly is not the only deceptive act they engage in.
On PSA's website, under the heading of "Ungradable Cards," it is clearly stated that the company "will not grade cards that bear evidence of trimming, re-coloring, restoration, or any forms of tampering, or are of questionable authenticity." This policy is explained in further detail under the heading "No Grade Definitions": Quote:
By definition, the card here, an iconic 1948 Leaf Satchel Paige rookie card, should have been rejected with the N-5 no grade. If slabbed, it should have been designated Authetic-Altered, greatly reducing its desirability and value. But it was not. Here are the details: PSA Cert #:23545563 1948 Leaf #8 Satchel Paige SGC 3 to PSA 4.5 Alteration types: Creases pressed out Set Registry status: None Sales History: Sold on 11/11/2011 as a SGC by Goodwin & Co. to an unknown buyer for $5,105.10 Sold on 11/22/2014 as a PSA 4.5 by eBay seller floyd6294 for $11,500.00 *First sale as a PSA 4.5* Consigned to PWCC and sold on 2/4/2015 for $11,201.00 Consigned to REA and sold on 12/8/2019 for $27,600.00 Last sale price: $27,600.00 As an SGC 3, this Paige card had multiple veins of creasing in the lower left quadrant of its reverse, which are pointed out in the image below using green arrows. However, even though the scan of the PSA 4.5 is of much higher quality, there is barely any evidence of the creasing. (The REA catalog calls the creasing "faint"; the PWCC description does not mention creasing at all.) The pink circles are print marks and/or paper fibers proving the SGC 3 and the PSA 4.5 are the same card. ![]() ![]() I've been experimenting with ways make alterations appear more visible on digital images, and one method that works for matching stains on 1914 and 1915 Cracker Jack cards is to reduce the brightness of the image so the stains become more apparent. I found this method also works with making wrinkles and creases more visible, as you will see below on the reverse images of this 1948 Leaf Paige card. I first matched the brightness levels of the two images and then reduced their brightness to a -60 on a scale of -100 to +100 in my PictureProject software. The images below are taken from the 11/11/2011 Goodwin sale of the SGC 3 and the 12/8/2019 sale of the PSA 4.5. Notice how much more apparent the creasing becomes on the SGC 3 when light is reduced. I have highlighted the creasing area in green. ![]() ![]() Conclusion: This $27,600 card is altered, and should have been rejected by PSA with a N-5 designation. Please note that the first documented sale of the altered PSA 4.5 was from eBay user floyd6294. His new eBay ID is desert-ice-sports. More research is needed to see if desert-ice-sports submitted this card to PSA or purchased it already graded. Relevant links: Goodwin SGC 3 sale: https://vintagecardprices.com/card/b...t/42414/SGC/40 Best images of SGC 3: http://www.cardtarget.com/cards/53491 floyd6294 eBay PSA 4.5 sale: https://vintagecardprices.com/card/b.../42414/PSA/4.5 PWCC eBay PSA 4.5 sale: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1064785 REA PSA 4.5 sale: https://bid.robertedwardauctions.com...e?itemid=61859 And for the record, the term "waterfront card" is universally hated.
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Cardboard Detective Emeritus superdan49@protonmail.com — Anonymous Tip-line |
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#2 |
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BODA
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 9,392
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Oh no, not a Waterfront card!
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3124508@protonmail.com The Short Guide to the PWCC Card Trimming & Alteration Fraud |
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#3 |
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Member
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 3,728
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With all we've seen this edited version may be more accurate. Joke of course, sort of.
The company "will not grade cards unless they bear evidence of trimming, re-coloring, restoration, or any forms of tampering, or are of questionable authenticity."
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"We will control the horizontal. We will control the vertical. We can roll the image, make it flutter. We can change the focus to a soft blur, or sharpen it to crystal clarity." Opening narration, The Outer Limits. |
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#4 |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: French underground
Posts: 4,009
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This may be considered a radical statement by some, but in addition to PSA's gratuitous error, REA shares some of the blame. You would think that the major auction houses, many with former TPG graders on staff, would have the ability to spend 5 to 10 minutes checking a few online resources to see if some of the more expensive cards in their auctions--especially those valued in excess of $25,000--have been altered.
Also, which party is currently liable? PSA? |
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#5 |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: French underground
Posts: 4,009
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There's something wrong with the corners on the card too. It looks like to me that they've been artificially lightened by bleach or some other chemical that has removed all the darkened areas that are typically associated with that type of corner wear. Anyhow, that doesn't look normal. At all.
There also appears to be some fiber degradation, which is especially noticeable near the LR corner. Again, this is typical for cards that have been bleached. Last edited by pip; 07-15-2021 at 09:56 PM. |
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#6 |
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Banned
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Disney
Posts: 80
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So for liability, in the game of musical chairs. Who is most likely the person/company who will take the hit?
Buyer Consignor Trimmer REA PWCC This is assuming that teflon PSA does not do anything about this and just tells us how they get most of their opinions right. |
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#7 | |
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BODA
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 4,272
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Quote:
My guess is REA will refund the buyer. Anything beyond that would be a wild guess.
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Cardboard Detective Emeritus superdan49@protonmail.com — Anonymous Tip-line |
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#8 |
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Member
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Agreed. What’s crazy is how long ago the alteration took place. Amazing work as always superdan.
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Go Royals!! #RoyalsIn2015 <---It Happened!! Sometimes it is astounding that we are able to persist in a world so full of morons.#TEAMZinck |
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#9 | |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 8,676
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Quote:
Exactly! Isn’t this what real and reputable auction houses do and is paid for by buyers fees??
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IRS Tax Tip 2022-57
A hobby is any activity that a person pursues because they enjoy it and with no intention of making a profit. People operate a business with the intention of making a profit. |
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#10 |
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BODA
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 4,272
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And here's one more from the '48 Leaf set...Maybe not waterfront, but oh well
PSA Cert #:22170388 1948 Leaf #98 Hal Newhouser PSA 6 to PSA 7 Alteration types: Bleaching Set Registry status: None Sales History: Sold on 5/8/2011 as a PSA 6 by REA to an unnamed buyer for $2,115.00 Consigned to Memory Lane Inc. and sold as a PSA 7 on 12/20/2013 for $4,850.44 *First sale as a PSA 7* Consigned to PWCC and sold on 9/7/2016 for $6,601.00 Last sale price: $6,601.00 The green box on the upper edge of the PSA 6 shows a small, crescent-shaped black mark, perhaps some stray ink. In the green box of the PSA 7, that mark is gone. Where did it go? More on that below. The pink circles are print marks and/or paper fibers proving the PSA 6 and the PSA 7 are the same card. ![]() ![]() Just as with the 1948 Leaf Paige card, I first matched the brightness levels of the images and then reduced their brightness, this time to a -90 on a scale of -100 to +100 in my PictureProject software. The images below are taken from the REA sale of the PSA 6, and both the Memory Lane and PWCC sales of the PSA 7. Here you see the area on the PSA 7 where a chemical cleaning took place of that dark mark on the PSA 6, which I pointed out with green arrows. On a white border in normal lighting, it is difficult to see. However, when the brightness is reduced, it is undeniably brighter than the rest of the card stock. Think of this as a digital black light. ![]() Conclusion: This $6,610 card is altered, and should have been rejected by PSA with a N-7 designation for use of a bleaching agent. I used two independent images of the PSA 7— one from Memory Lane and one from PWCC. The area where the black mark was removed lights up on both of them. Please note that the first documented sale of the altered PSA 7 was from Memory Lane. If the consignor of this card to Memory Lane matches the buyer from REA, then that person is the card doctor. Relevant links: REA PSA 6 sale: https://www.robertedwardauctions.com...er-rookie-psa/ Memory Lane PSA 7 sale: https://vintagecardprices.com/card/b...nt/42353/PSA/7 PWCC eBay PSA 7 sale: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1341247
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Cardboard Detective Emeritus superdan49@protonmail.com — Anonymous Tip-line |
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#11 |
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Member
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 3,558
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PSA doing what they do best, causing ignorant people to throw away money.
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PSA is like a 70s Porn Star...They don’t care if it’s trimmed or not. Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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#12 |
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Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 4,136
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I think we know the real reason auction houses employ former graders.
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#13 |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 3,506
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I purchased a card on ebay from desert-ice-sports back in 2018. after some suspension, I decided to go back and trace other cards in his submission. I came up with 138 cards (28303756 - 28303894). Checking the sales from PSA, deserticesportscom and user987654987654 also sold cards from this lot on ebay. I saw one that went to an auction house. Several of the cards submitted in this group came back as altered.
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#14 | |
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 4,357
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Quote:
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Ashley Lelie Rookie Collector, always looking for more. |
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#16 |
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Member
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NEVER GET CHEATED!
FFS PSA. smh |
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#17 |
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Member
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Stuck inside of Mobile
Posts: 1,290
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My understanding is slabbed cards with pressed crease/s have a tendency for the crease to "come back" over time... sometimes in a very short amount of time after being slabbed.
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#nevergetcheated Riiiiiiiiight |
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#18 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Nashville, Tn
Posts: 1,326
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Quote:
The main focus of my collection is vintage baseball autographs. The autograph market as a whole is probably one of the most toxic and peril collectible industries and markets out there. I don't, however, have any reservations about navigating that market because I learned early on that blind trust was idiotic. I can name three times in collecting that I have been burned on what I would consider high dollar items. All three happened early in my collecting career when I blindly accepted the opinions of others as fact instead of doing the due diligence myself. I returned or asked for a return on zero of them, because I realized the onus on me and if I had done even minimal research on the items I would have probably avoided them. Since then I have taken the time to study the provenance and authenticity of every autograph I've purchased whether it a $50 or $5000 item. I've been lucky to befriend dozens of dealers and collectors with some of the best reputations in the hobby and there is exactly one singular person who I would take an opinion from above all diligence and sadly that person has retired from the hobby. Do I have some bad items in my collection? I'm sure I do, it's the nature of hobby unfortunately, but since I realized that the best thing I could do was protect myself I personally feel confident in every purchase I've made. I do buy PSA/DNA, JSA, and BAS items and occasionally use them myself, but I also realize that they are nothing but opinion and some people have really bad opinions. They are what they are, a needed but flawed part of the hobby. Let's face it, the vast majority of collectors paying five figures for a card with a 8, 9, or 10 on the flip are doing so for three main reasons. 1. Resell down the road for a profit. 2. Enter a number in a registry and move up a few spots. 3. (And I would argue the most common reason) To show off to fellow collectors and be adulated. The only group of these three that seem to be outraged are those people in the investment category. (And honestly, even with the scope of the fraud exposed thus far - prices on a major scale have yet to be affected.) Take this for what you want, but when one of my investment performs poorly I don't blame my broker. Last edited by sbfinley; 01-29-2020 at 03:08 AM. |
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#19 | |
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Member
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Quote:
why doesn't someone reach out to them and ask. maybe they will be forthcoming and give a lead. judging from the sound of their contact us page and guarantee, looks like they would be interested to hear what BODA may have to say. https://www.deserticesports.com https://www.deserticesports.com/contact-us/ Last edited by dictoresno; 01-29-2020 at 03:24 AM. |
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#20 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Stuck inside of Mobile
Posts: 1,290
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Quote:
What groups of people negatively effected by false advertising and fraud should not be "outraged"? That includes investors to passionate collectors with no intent on selling for a profit and/or making "investments".
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#nevergetcheated Riiiiiiiiight |
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#21 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: French underground
Posts: 4,009
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Quote:
To say that well known, established auction houses have no responsibility to reject altered cards from submitters or to exercise their exerpertise when determining the authenticity, condition, and legitimacy of each item they auction makes little sense. Take an obvious example like Coach's Corner, for instance. Do you think they should have any liability for the thousands of fake autographed items they've sold? Or would that be someone else's fault? |
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#22 | |
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BODA
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 4,272
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Quote:
There is some evidence that the creasing has begun to return. The 2015 PWCC catalog description of the PSA 4.5 makes no mention of creasing at all, while the catalog description of the PSA 4.5 from the 2019 REA sale calls it "faint."
__________________
Cardboard Detective Emeritus superdan49@protonmail.com — Anonymous Tip-line |
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#23 |
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BODA
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: From a table in McDonalds, with lovely fake flowers on it.
Posts: 17,934
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Nice work Superdan - a new way to look at cards for alterations!
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He has no rival, He has no equal.
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#24 |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: San Antonio
Posts: 8,058
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#25 | |
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Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Southern Wisconsin
Posts: 381
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Quote:
While this was going on there was a small group of collectors who would be crying in the wilderness to buy the card and not the holder and those voices would just die off as grading became more accepted. Even the hobby's biggest mouthpiece, Alan "Mr. Mint" Rosen was against grading at the start and would run adds saying that TPG's were not needed in this hobby but even he soon came around to the dark side because he saw the money that could be made with cards that were entombed in plastic. Seems to me it is time to start listening to those voices in the distance again to buy the card and not the holder and educate one's self before spending any amount of money on cards. The days of trusting TPG's as the ultimate knowledge base of cards is over as it seems they are involved in a money grab and could care less about what their negligence is doing to the hobby and those collectors who are pending hard earned money on the passion. So in conclusion...yeah....much of the blame has to be placed on the end user as nobody seems to want to do their due diligence in this hobby any more because they are all blindly following the flip at the top of the slab and not looking deeper at the card itself. Lemmings....all of them. |
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