Broadway Joe or Kareem Rookie?

[TriggerFinger]

Looking for feedback from the group to help me make a purchasing decision. I can only afford to get one of these cards, but I'm torn between the Joe Namath 1965 Topps Rookie and the Lew Alcindor 1969 Topps Rookie.

Both are obviously icons for their sport and both cards probably fall around 5K in a 6 grade.

I'd appreciate any feedback as to why people would prefer one over the other. It looks like the Namath has smaller pop counts if that matter. Thanks!

[Stifle]

Namath has the New York market without any other Jet quarterback to contend as a legend.

Lew Alcindor has a recent global market but I’m not sure the vintage rookie cards are collected the way the Jordan to today cards are. KAJ’s rookie card may be in a period of time where the new market collectors have not shown interest in?

[Moneychrome20]

Kareem this isn’t even a real contest

[MOONBASE1]

Kareem. More championships.

[juandylan]

Kareem more everything. Top 5 all time basketball player (3 on my list behind mj and LeBron)

[VanLingoMungo46]

Namath. More iconic card.

[JimV]

Kareem. And it’s not close.

[aro13]

Kareem's RC in a PSA 6 was selling for less than $1000 in April of this year. They seem to be in the $4000 range right now.

Namath is selling for $5 K now and was still a $2500 card a year ago.

Namath has around 1700 graded with 307 PSA 6's.

Jabbar has 3200 graded with 649 PSA 6's.

Leaving out their respective place in history in their sports (which is subjective) the Namath is far more difficult to get. So unless the Jabbar has twice the number of people looking for it, I would buy the Namath currently.

[VanLingoMungo46]

Yes those are salient points. If someone offered me an Alcindor or Namath rookie same comparable condition I would take the Broadway Joe no hesitation. That said they are both monster cards.

[herbc]

Being a New Yorker, both of these cards are very special for me. I'm old enough to have seen both of them play their game, and also experienced the buzz surrounding them.
Both of them New York legends, but Namath not only played the game in New York, he portrayed the NY lifestyle that every young man wanted to be a part of. Before wanting to be like Mike... It was Joe!
Although I have both cards, Namath was the most difficult to get price wise and condition. I also think it is a better looking card. The Alcindor card seems to be an easier pickup. If I could only choose one, Broadway Joe would be my choice. Here are my two cards...

[Promethius88]

Joe butterfly variation!

[Cousin Jethroe]

Alcindor rookie.. I will keep it

Namath rookie, Id love to get rid of it

[kingofsnake]

Namath's career record is 68-71-4. I'll go Kareem.

[Stat Monsters]

As an investment, I'd say 100% Kareem.

He's the all-time record holder of total career points scored (and even if eclipsed by LeBron, there's so many other records Kareem holds)

Basketball, as you may have noticed is more popular than Football in the trading card hobby. You see rookie cards of HOF'ers and GOAT's of their position and of their era's skyrocket in Basketball, but Football cards aside from a narrower group of names, seem to have stagnated. Rookie Cards of modern basketball players who are bench warming prospects often outperform starting young talent on the gridiron in Football when it comes to pricing.

Joe is a icon, but he's kind of "out of sight, out of mind" and not a personality you see much in the public eye anymore. He's best known by this generation for his drunken sexual harassment of a reporter in 2003. The next surge in his card prices is probably upon his passing, unfortunately.

Kareem, 'tho most of what he's doing today is more political or activist based, is still seen in the public eye.

Basketball, you see the players faces, where Football it's men with helmets, so as personalities, Basketball seems to cultivate more popular star players. The kids of today who will be adults of tomorrow seem to also favor the NBA over the NFL when it comes to individual players.

[49ersSF]

Kareem and it's not even close. Kareem is one of the top 5 players in NBA history and an absolute sports and cultural icon.

Namath was a below average QB who was marketed more for his personality than talent on the field.

[rats60]

Namath. It is the 1952 Topps Mantle of football cards. Kareem's profile is just going to diminish when LeBron passes him in points.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by 49ersSF

Namath was a below average QB who was marketed more for his personality than talent on the field.

By this logic, Gayle Sayers was a below average RB because he rushed for less than 5000 yards. Comparing Namath against his contemporaries, he was a great QB. Under the old rules which made passing much more difficult, he held the record for passing yards in a season as the only QB to pass for 4000 yards. He was a 2xMVP and 5xAll Pro as well as being elected to the Pro FB HOF. He led the Jets to the greatest upset in NFL history, but after that injuries derailed his career.

[49ersSF]

Originally Posted by rats60

By this logic, Gayle Sayers was a below average RB because he rushed for less than 5000 yards. Comparing Namath against his contemporaries, he was a great QB. Under the old rules which made passing much more difficult, he held the record for passing yards in a season as the only QB to pass for 4000 yards. He was a 2xMVP and 5xAll Pro as well as being elected to the Pro FB HOF. He led the Jets to the greatest upset in NFL history, but after that injuries derailed his career.

Gale Sayers is a poor choice to compare him to. Gale Sayers played 5 years and average 1,000 yards per season with a 5.0 per carry average and an average of 10 touchdowns per season. When compared to his contemporaries he superior to most. Comparing Namath to his contemporaries is what proves he was below average.

Hall of Famers

Bart Starr: 94 wins 57 losses (9 playoff wins)
24,713 yards 57.4 comp% 152 tds 138 interceptions 80.5 QBR

Johnny Unitas 118 wins 63 losses (6 playoff wins)
40,239 yards 54.6 comp% 290 tds 253 interceptions 78.2 QBR

Fran Tarkenton 124 wins 109 losses (6 playoff wins)
47,003 yards 57.0 comp% 342 tds 266 interceptions 80.4 QBR

Len Dawson 94 wins 57 losses (5 playoff wins)
28,711 yards 57.1 comp % 239 tds 183 interceptions 82.6 QBR

Sonny Jurgensen 69 wins 71 losses
32,224 yards 57.1 comp% 255 tds 189 interceptions 82.6 QBR

Bob Griese: 92 wins 56 losses (6 playoff wins)
25,092 yards 56.2 comp% 192 tds 172 interceptions 77.1 QBR

Hall of Good

Roman Gabriel 86 wins 64 losses
29,444 yards 52.6% comp 201 tds 149 interceptions 74.3 QBR

John Brodie 74 wins 76 losses (2 playoff wins)
31,548 yards 55%comp 214 tds 224 interceptions 72.3 QBR

Frank Ryan 57 wins 27 losses (1 playoff win)
16,042 yards 51.1 comp% 149 tds 111 interceptions 77.6 QBR

Darryl Lamonica 66 wins 16 losses (4 playoff wins)
19,154 yards 49.5 comp% 164 tds 138 interceptions 72.9 QBR

Earl Morrall 63 wins 36 losses (4 playoff wins)
20,809 yards 51.3 comp% 161 tds 148 interceptions 74.6 QBR

Don Meredith 47 wins 32 losses (1 playoff win)
17,199 yards 50.7 comp% 135 tds 111 interceptions 74.8 QBR

Billy Kilmer 61 wins 52 losses (2 playoff wins)
20,495 years 53.1 comp% 152 TDs 146 interceptions 71.6 QBR

Hall of Below Average

Milt Plum 56 wins 41 losses
17,536 yards 54.0 comp% 122 tds 125 interceptions 72.2 QBR

Charley Johnson 59 wins 57 losses
24,410 yards 51.2 comp% 170 tds 181 interceptions 69.2 QBR

John Hadl 82 wins 75 losses (no playoff wins)
33,503 yards 244 tds 268 interceptions 67.4 QBR

Jim Hart 87 wins 88 losses
34,665 yards 51.1 comp % 209 tds 247 interceptions 66.6 QBR

Joe Namath 62 wins 63 losses. (2 playoff wins)
27,663 yards. 50.1 comp% 173 tds 220 interceptions 65.5 QBR

Norm Snead 52 wins 100 losses
30,797 yards 52.3 comp% 196 tds 257 interceptions 65.5 QBR

So basically, Joe Namath is tied for the worst QBR with his contemporaries. He had one good season in his 13 year career.

[carlo16]

Actual numbers and all time rankings aside. Namath rookie has been an iconic card since at least the mid 80s. I’ve been in this hobby since 84 and have never seen Alcindor rookie on the cover of an auction catalog or headline anything. Also Without checking pop reports, the Kareem rookie has always been much easier to find in high grade than Namath.

[49ersSF]

Originally Posted by carlo16

Actual numbers and all time rankings aside. Namath rookie has been an iconic card since at least the mid 80s. I’ve been in this hobby since 84 and have never seen Alcindor rookie on the cover of an auction catalog or headline anything. Also Without checking pop reports, the Kareem rookie has always been much easier to find in high grade than Namath.

The Namath card is definitely much more rare and quite unique as it is from the talk boy football. It's a definite icon of vintage football. I'd still take the Alcindor rookie over it given his status as one of the greatest ever.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by 49ersSF

Gale Sayers is a poor choice to compare him to. Gale Sayers played 5 years and average 1,000 yards per season with a 5.0 per carry average and an average of 10 touchdowns per season. When compared to his contemporaries he superior to most. Comparing Namath to his contemporaries is what proves he was below average.

Hall of Famers

Bart Starr: 94 wins 57 losses (9 playoff wins)
24,713 yards 57.4 comp% 152 tds 138 interceptions 80.5 QBR

Johnny Unitas 118 wins 63 losses (6 playoff wins)
40,239 yards 54.6 comp% 290 tds 253 interceptions 78.2 QBR

Fran Tarkenton 124 wins 109 losses (6 playoff wins)
47,003 yards 57.0 comp% 342 tds 266 interceptions 80.4 QBR

Len Dawson 94 wins 57 losses (5 playoff wins)
28,711 yards 57.1 comp % 239 tds 183 interceptions 82.6 QBR

Sonny Jurgensen 69 wins 71 losses
32,224 yards 57.1 comp% 255 tds 189 interceptions 82.6 QBR

Bob Griese: 92 wins 56 losses (6 playoff wins)
25,092 yards 56.2 comp% 192 tds 172 interceptions 77.1 QBR

Hall of Good

Roman Gabriel 86 wins 64 losses
29,444 yards 52.6% comp 201 tds 149 interceptions 74.3 QBR

John Brodie 74 wins 76 losses (2 playoff wins)
31,548 yards 55%comp 214 tds 224 interceptions 72.3 QBR

Frank Ryan 57 wins 27 losses (1 playoff win)
16,042 yards 51.1 comp% 149 tds 111 interceptions 77.6 QBR

Darryl Lamonica 66 wins 16 losses (4 playoff wins)
19,154 yards 49.5 comp% 164 tds 138 interceptions 72.9 QBR

Earl Morrall 63 wins 36 losses (4 playoff wins)
20,809 yards 51.3 comp% 161 tds 148 interceptions 74.6 QBR

Don Meredith 47 wins 32 losses (1 playoff win)
17,199 yards 50.7 comp% 135 tds 111 interceptions 74.8 QBR

Billy Kilmer 61 wins 52 losses (2 playoff wins)
20,495 years 53.1 comp% 152 TDs 146 interceptions 71.6 QBR

Hall of Below Average

Milt Plum 56 wins 41 losses
17,536 yards 54.0 comp% 122 tds 125 interceptions 72.2 QBR

Charley Johnson 59 wins 57 losses
24,410 yards 51.2 comp% 170 tds 181 interceptions 69.2 QBR

John Hadl 82 wins 75 losses (no playoff wins)
33,503 yards 244 tds 268 interceptions 67.4 QBR

Jim Hart 87 wins 88 losses
34,665 yards 51.1 comp % 209 tds 247 interceptions 66.6 QBR

Joe Namath 62 wins 63 losses. (2 playoff wins)
27,663 yards. 50.1 comp% 173 tds 220 interceptions 65.5 QBR

Norm Snead 52 wins 100 losses
30,797 yards 52.3 comp% 196 tds 257 interceptions 65.5 QBR

So basically, Joe Namath is tied for the worst QBR with his contemporaries. He had one good season in his 13 year career.

QBR is a poor standard to use. If Namath had 1 good season, he wouldn't have been a 2 time MVP and 5 time AP. Completion percentage is a post rules change standard. Namath had a low completion percentage because he had a quick release and the lowest sack percentage of any contemporaries because he was good at throwing the ball away. Today's QBs would rather take a sack losing yardage than throw the ball away hurting their completion percentage. Namath's sack percentage was 3.8%. Johnny Unitas' was 6.8%, Fran Tarkenton's 7.8%.

Interceptions weren't the big deal they are today. QBs in Namath's day didn't use the West Coast offense and throw 2 yard passes where an INT hurt the team. They threw the ball down field so when it was picked off it was like a punt. Passing offenses were high risk, high reward, not complete 3 passes and hope to gain 10 yards.

Namath may be last in completion percentage among contemporaries, but first in yards per completion and net yards per attempt. Namath is 3rd in adjusted net yards per attempt which factors in interceptions. If you only complete every other pass, but 2 pass attempts get you a 1st down, completion percentage is irrelevant. The goal is to gain 10 yards in 3 (or 4) downs. So despite his low completion percentage and high number of interceptions, he was one of the best quarterbacks of his era.

Just like Joe Montana and Tom Brady would have been average to below average QBs had they played pre rules changes, Joe Namath would be average under today's standards, but was one of the best quarterbacks in his day. People trying to apply today's standards which apply to today's rules misunderstand and under rate older QBs like Namath.

[pspa123]

Namath preposterously guaranteed a win in the most important game in the history of the sport and delivered. As Broadway Joe (his unbelievably apt nickname), he is one of the most iconic personalities in the history of sports. Short print, tall boy, great looking card (it truly is), New York, rock star, sex symbol, forget the numbers, he transcends them. Arguing about his statistics in my opinion misses the larger point here.

[byronscott4ever]

Does anyone say Namath was the best ever in his sport? I’ve heard Kareem mentioned, never Joe.

[duwal]

Originally Posted by byronscott4ever

Does anyone say Namath was the best ever in his sport? I’ve heard Kareem mentioned, never Joe.

Heck he's not even close to being the best Joe in his sport

[carlo16]

Originally Posted by byronscott4ever

Does anyone say Namath was the best ever in his sport? I’ve heard Kareem mentioned, never Joe.

Never heard Mantle named best in his sport.