Notorious BIG Rookie Card?

[tier1dc]

I've seen that in 2013 Panini did a Black Friday dual license card with Platinum League for the HRX cards that had Snoop, 2Pac, & Biggie.

I found this 2012 Platinum League card of Biggie but it has gold foil instead of the regular silver foil on base Platinum cards and it also has thicker paper stock.

Anyone ever seen this set/parallel before? Any chance it would be considered his true rookie card?

[MyckKabongo]

Amazing find! Yes, I think the 2012 Platinum League may very well be his first appearance on a card.

[omega145]

Since when did musicians get "rookie" cards?
A rookie when related to cards means "a member of an athletic team in his or her first full season in that sport."

[dd316]

Originally Posted by omega145

Since when did musicians get "rookie" cards?
A rookie when related to cards means "a member of an athletic team in his or her first full season in that sport."

Welcome to one of the biggest debates of the last year in non-sports.

[tier1dc]

Originally Posted by MyckKabongo

Amazing find! Yes, I think the 2012 Platinum League may very well be his first appearance on a card.

Yeah, super random find. Also got a 2Pac & Snoop card like the Biggie one.

Originally Posted by omega145

Since when did musicians get "rookie" cards?
A rookie when related to cards means "a member of an athletic team in his or her first full season in that sport."

And where did I post this? In the non sports, correct? If it's his first official card, it's his first official card. Look up Batman 1966 #1 PSA prices for what people consider to be Batman's 1st/Rookie card.

[chilly55]

Originally Posted by tier1dc

Yeah, super random find. Also got a 2Pac & Snoop card like the Biggie one.



And where did I post this? In the non sports, correct? If it's his first official card, it's his first official card. Look up Batman 1966 #1 PSA prices for what people consider to be Batman's 1st/Rookie card.

The non-sport rookie card is a joke that just happened recently with all of these new, uniformed investors coming into the market. They made up the non-sport rookie card and thus inflated prices. Prior to Covid, the Luke Skywalker "rc" was worth the same as all of the other cards in the set. Same with all of the other "rc's" that these new buyers are overpaying for. Rc's in the hobby didn't exist before Covid. So, who are the fools? But hey, if someone wants to pay those prices, more money for the sellers.

The reason the Batman #1 is worth so much is that back in the day when we kids collected, we rubber banded our sets. Yes, back in the 60's, & 70's, that's what we did to a pile of cards. The #1 and last card in each set is now damaged because of the rubber bands. So to find one in higher conditions command a premium. Plus, I know for a fact because I did it, I would throw away cards that were damaged by rubber bands. Plus, they were great for the spokes in your bike to make noises

[Mahomie]

Nice Rookie card

[PumpnDumpling]

Originally Posted by chilly55

The non-sport rookie card is a joke that just happened recently with all of these new, unsophisticated speculators coming into the market. They made up the non-sport rookie card and thus inflated prices. Prior to Covid, the Luke Skywalker "rc" was worth the same as all of the other cards in the set. Same with all of the other "rc's" that these new buyers are overpaying for. Rc's in the hobby didn't exist before Covid. So, who are the fools? But hey, if someone wants to pay those prices, more money for the sellers.

The reason the Batman #1 is worth so much is that back in the day when we kids collected, we rubber banded our sets. Yes, back in the 60's, & 70's, that's what we did to a pile of cards. The #1 and last card in each set is now damaged because of the rubber bands. So to find one in higher conditions command a premium. Plus, I know for a fact because I did it, I would throw away cards that were damaged by rubber bands. Plus, they were great for the spokes in your bike to make noises

Fixed, but everything else spot on

[Mahomie]

Originally Posted by PumpnDumpling

Fixed, but everything else spot on

I luv Rookie kards!

[PurplesaurusRex]

Rookie cards make sense for comic characters because they do have teams (even if its just heroes vs villains) and they challenge one another. But I'd rather have a comic book first appearance over a card.

[nyisle]

Originally Posted by PurplesaurusRex

Rookie cards make sense for comic characters because they do have teams (even if its just heroes vs villains) and they challenge one another. But I'd rather have a comic book first appearance over a card.

So, then they should change comic books to Rookie Issue, instead of First Appearance....

[PurplesaurusRex]

Originally Posted by nyisle

So, then they should change comic books to Rookie Issue, instead of First Appearance....

Hah, sure I guess. The weird thing about comics (and even musicians) is sometimes the cards come much later than the actual appearance. That Ghost Rider rookie card says 1990, but that's definitely not the first year that he appeared. Same thing with musicians, they don't always coincide with a first album.

[webjon]

This card is a great example of why the term rookie doesn't work in entertainment cards -- among other reasons this card was produced 15 years after his death.

Rookie also makes no sense at all for comic cards. In the Ghost Rider example -- what would the rookie be? Johnny Blaze, Danny Ketch, Robbie Reyes? Or should it be Gabriel Luna's first card as Robbie Reyes, or Nic Cage as Johnny Blaze? What about all the other versions of Ghost Rider? Ohh -- the first Ghost Rider -- so Carter Slade?

[PurplesaurusRex]

I'm gonna pick up this Kid Rock rookie card, it might be worth something!

[wigglestrue]

Originally Posted by dd316

Welcome to one of the biggest debates of the last year in non-sports.

What debate? Not here on Blowout. So where was the debate taking place? Private chats? As far as I'm concerned, the debate hasn't even begun.

Originally Posted by omega145

Since when did musicians get "rookie" cards?
A rookie when related to cards means "a member of an athletic team in his or her first full season in that sport."

I appreciate the literalism that's entirely dependent on preexisting definitions from another domain, but this is an emergent phenomenon subject to revising definitions to fit the domain of music cards.

Originally Posted by chilly55

The non-sport rookie card is a joke that just happened recently with all of these new, uniformed investors coming into the market. They made up the non-sport rookie card and thus inflated prices. Prior to Covid, the Luke Skywalker "rc" was worth the same as all of the other cards in the set. Same with all of the other "rc's" that these new buyers are overpaying for. Rc's in the hobby didn't exist before Covid. So, who are the fools? But hey, if someone wants to pay those prices, more money for the sellers.

The reason the Batman #1 is worth so much is that back in the day when we kids collected, we rubber banded our sets. Yes, back in the 60's, & 70's, that's what we did to a pile of cards. The #1 and last card in each set is now damaged because of the rubber bands. So to find one in higher conditions command a premium. Plus, I know for a fact because I did it, I would throw away cards that were damaged by rubber bands. Plus, they were great for the spokes in your bike to make noises

I lmfao at imagining people with your attitude in the late 70s sneering sarcastically at the dedicated baseball card collectors who "made up" the hobby standards that didn't exist and which you now take for granted. Prepare for a shock. If non-sports rookies are a joke, YOU'RE the punchline.

[wigglestrue]

Originally Posted by tier1dc

I've seen that in 2013 Panini did a Black Friday dual license card with Platinum League for the HRX cards that had Snoop, 2Pac, & Biggie.

I found this 2012 Platinum League card of Biggie but it has gold foil instead of the regular silver foil on base Platinum cards and it also has thicker paper stock.

Anyone ever seen this set/parallel before? Any chance it would be considered his true rookie card?

The image link is broken so I can't see it, but if you're asking whether Biggie's rookie is the 2013 Panini or the 2012 Platinum League, it's definitely the 2012 Platinum League. (Unless there was some obscure but legit set with a Biggie card produced before 2012!) I've been seeing the 2013 Panini listed a lot on eBay as his rookie, priced in the hundreds, and I shake my head, because hip hop fans should definitely remember that Biggie's mom helped launch the 2012 Platinum League set, holding up his card for the press cameras, and it's not like it was a boutique limited edition set, boxes of packs of it were sold in the big retail stores all over the country. The 2013 Panini is still a nice card, but I suspect a lot of people are going to be pretty pissed when they realize they bought a card under the mistaken impression it's his rookie. I did see one 2012 Platinum League for sale, listed correctly as Biggie's "true rookie", priced around 300, and whoever bought it ought to be happy, it could be a bargain depending on how many of those sets were produced.

[chilly55]

Originally Posted by wigglestrue

What debate? Not here on Blowout. So where was the debate taking place? Private chats? As far as I'm concerned, the debate hasn't even begun.



I appreciate the literalism that's entirely dependent on preexisting definitions from another domain, but this is an emergent phenomenon subject to revising definitions to fit the domain of music cards.



I lmfao at imagining people with your attitude in the late 70s sneering sarcastically at the dedicated baseball card collectors who "made up" the hobby standards that didn't exist and which you now take for granted. Prepare for a shock. If non-sports rookies are a joke, YOU'RE the punchline.

lol, if you feel you want to pay for a non-sport rookie card, go for it. That makes you the joke. Prior to Covid, the non-sport rc didn't exist. The 1990's Marvel sets/boxes were cheaper than a meal at McDonalds.

As far as Baseball, I've been in the hobby since 1975 and rookies were coveted back then just as they are today. When Star Wars came out in 1977, nobody paid a premium for Luke Skywalker's rc. Nobody did in 1980, nor 1985, nor 1990, etc. So go for it if you want to pay a premium for non-sport rookies. Your entitled to spend you money the way you like. But respect those of us who refuse to pay a premium for something that just started recently. And if this is they way things will be in the future, so be it. My money will go elsewhere. The hobby changes and we all make adjustments. My adjustment is to not buy non-sport rc's.

[dd316]

Originally Posted by wigglestrue

What debate? Not here on Blowout. So where was the debate taking place? Private chats? As far as I'm concerned, the debate hasn't even begun.

Yes, it was discussed in numerous threads here as well as other non-sports forums. You're jumping back into a discussion nearly a year AFTER I said it was already being discussed over the PRIOR year.

Just because you didn't participate in the discussions doesn't mean they didn't happen.

[wigglestrue]

Originally Posted by dd316

Yes, it was discussed in numerous threads here as well as other non-sports forums. You're jumping back into a discussion nearly a year AFTER I said it was already being discussed over the PRIOR year.

Just because you didn't participate in the discussions doesn't mean they didn't happen.

Cool, where are the threads here? Were they deleted? All I could find by searching was this thread. What other non-sports forums? Were they talking about both vintage and recent sets, or just the latter?

[wigglestrue]

Originally Posted by chilly55

lol, if you feel you want to pay for a non-sport rookie card, go for it. That makes you the joke. Prior to Covid, the non-sport rc didn't exist. The 1990's Marvel sets/boxes were cheaper than a meal at McDonalds.

As far as Baseball, I've been in the hobby since 1975 and rookies were coveted back then just as they are today. When Star Wars came out in 1977, nobody paid a premium for Luke Skywalker's rc. Nobody did in 1980, nor 1985, nor 1990, etc. So go for it if you want to pay a premium for non-sport rookies. Your entitled to spend you money the way you like. But respect those of us who refuse to pay a premium for something that just started recently. And if this is they way things will be in the future, so be it. My money will go elsewhere. The hobby changes and we all make adjustments. My adjustment is to not buy non-sport rc's.

"rookies were coveted back then just as they are today"

Oh? Really? Coveted just as much? Or just coveted, and only certain cards? Be honest. And what were the standards for rookie cards back then? Oh right, they didn't exist. They were "made up", just like non-sports rookie guidelines are being "made up" as we speak. Oh, and before the mid-70s, how coveted were baseball rookie cards? How coveted were baseball cards, period? So coveted they were thrown away and used for street games and bicycle sound effects. And then what happened? People started realizing they were more valuable than that. But then for a while basketball cards were still dismissed. "Pffft, they're just basketball cards." Until people realized those were valuable, too, and standards were applied to those sets, too. What makes you think the same won't happen for non-sports, especially music? Inertia, is what I think.

[dd316]

Originally Posted by wigglestrue

Cool, where are the threads here? Were they deleted? All I could find by searching was this thread. What other non-sports forums? Were they talking about both vintage and recent sets, or just the latter?

I did a search for "Rookie" in the non-sports forum here and a lot of threads came up that discuss it within from 2020 on.

Outside of there there's the Non-Sport Update forums as well. Outside of social media, these are the two biggest online forums I'm aware of.

Originally Posted by wigglestrue

"rookies were coveted back then just as they are today"

Oh? Really? Coveted just as much? Or just coveted, and only certain cards? Be honest. And what were the standards for rookie cards back then? Oh right, they didn't exist. They were "made up", just like non-sports rookie guidelines are being "made up" as we speak. Oh, and before the mid-70s, how coveted were baseball rookie cards? How coveted were baseball cards, period? So coveted they were thrown away and used for street games and bicycle sound effects. And then what happened? People started realizing they were more valuable than that. But then for a while basketball cards were still dismissed. "Pffft, they're just basketball cards." Until people realized those were valuable, too, and standards were applied to those sets, too. What makes you think the same won't happen for non-sports, especially music? Inertia, is what I think.

For as long as I've been collecting cards (40+ years now) "Rookie Cards" have ALWAYS been cornerstones. And the term "Rookie Card" was much easier to identify when there was only one manufacturer putting out cards - the first one was the RC, easy enough. Plus, at least on the sports side, most of the first cards had some kind of RC identifier. If you want to argue comparing back then to now, look no further than the Wander Franco stuff going on as he's had numerous cards out, but the 2022 Topps S1 finally identifies it with the Rookie logo.

And I think you're confusing "coveted" with "collected". Yes, kids put them in bike spokes, but nobody even back then would trade you their Mickey Mantle RC for your Joe Shlabotnik, even in 1963 - certain cards had higher value than others. Heck, treating their cards this way made ones that survived in better condition MORE valuable.

Things only became valuable once many people wanted them. Then it boils down to how many are there, and is that number enough to go around for everyone that wants it?

[wigglestrue]

Originally Posted by dd316

I did a search for "Rookie" in the non-sports forum here and a lot of threads came up that discuss it within from 2020 on.

Outside of there there's the Non-Sport Update forums as well. Outside of social media, these are the two biggest online forums I'm aware of.

Thanks for the info.

I see a slew of threads pop up for "rookie", meaning, I'd have to scroll through them all to find the debates about non-sports rookie status? Are there a few of them that stand out as a thorough debate?

For as long as I've been collecting cards (40+ years now) "Rookie Cards" have ALWAYS been cornerstones. And the term "Rookie Card" was much easier to identify when there was only one manufacturer putting out cards - the first one was the RC, easy enough. Plus, at least on the sports side, most of the first cards had some kind of RC identifier. If you want to argue comparing back then to now, look no further than the Wander Franco stuff going on as he's had numerous cards out, but the 2022 Topps S1 finally identifies it with the Rookie logo.

And I think you're confusing "coveted" with "collected". Yes, kids put them in bike spokes, but nobody even back then would trade you their Mickey Mantle RC for your Joe Shlabotnik, even in 1963 - certain cards had higher value than others. Heck, treating their cards this way made ones that survived in better condition MORE valuable.

Things only became valuable once many people wanted them. Then it boils down to how many are there, and is that number enough to go around for everyone that wants it?

I started collecting around 1986-1987, I remember. Many rookies were identified as rookie cards, but probably not most, though? You're right, there were fewer candidates to keep track of. Just one, before 1981, usually. But that presupposes that one already knew which sets were legit. THAT is one of the major issues in music cards, more so than whether a card meets the kind of rookie qualifications we encounter today in sports. We think it's easy to identify the rookie card for a baseball player in the 70s, but imagine having to account for all the minor releases and oddballs, too. Not just a 1978 Topps but also a 1977 Burger King card and a 1978 local ice cream manufacturer disc or whatever. In music, the candidates are perhaps MOSTLY minor releases and oddballs. Different domain, different expectations, different principles/rules/guidelines. That's my take, anyway. And it also seems to be David Halpen's perspective on first cards, and he is basically the pioneering Beckett of music cards. Whatever arguments took place a couple of years ago obviously weren't fruitful enough. Like I said, they might as well have not happened, the debate hasn't even really begun. But I am still quite interested in perusing those debates, so thanks again for the info.

[dd316]

Originally Posted by wigglestrue

Thanks for the info.

I see a slew of threads pop up for "rookie", meaning, I'd have to scroll through them all to find the debates about non-sports rookie status? Are there a few of them that stand out as a thorough debate?

Unfortunately you have to dig. But I read just about everything in the Non-Sports section, and the discussion came up in numerous threads which is why I said it was a big debate, there was lots of talk about it in many places. It doesn't look like there was a thread solely about that argument, at least none that I noticed in my quick search.

[wigglestrue]

I neglected to reply to a couple of things.

And I think you're confusing "coveted" with "collected". Yes, kids put them in bike spokes, but nobody even back then would trade you their Mickey Mantle RC for your Joe Shlabotnik, even in 1963 - certain cards had higher value than others. Heck, treating their cards this way made ones that survived in better condition MORE valuable.

You seem to be familiar with music cards. Where does the analogy between music cards and baseball cards fail? I'm sure it does here and there, hence the need for a different paradigm, but the circumstances of coveting/collecting seem to be more or less the same. Were American kids excitedly trading Jimi Hendrix cards for The Doors cards? No. But the music sets we're talking about were almost entirely issued in Europe, so I assume kids there were also reluctant to trade a star for a common. And they were mostly not taking good care of them, but some of them were, therefore we still have some good and a few beautiful specimens today, all the more valuable because of how little care was spent in general. Same as baseball. (EDIT: Except that those music cards were often issued as "stickers" that one was supposed to glue into an album, and so the undamaged music cards are often even rarer, wayyyy rarer.)

Things only became valuable once many people wanted them. Then it boils down to how many are there, and is that number enough to go around for everyone that wants it?

For people to want them, they need to know they exist. Before I started one recently, there wasn't a single thread about vintage music cards in this forum. Think about that. Most Americans only know about the 1991 Pro Set cards, if they even know music cards exist at all. Will they want them once they discover they exist? My guess is: Hell yes. Musical heroes are on par with sports heroes in people's hearts. The music itself is arguably more important to people than sports, even for many sports obsessives. Musicians are real people, as opposed to fictional like superheroes. As opposed to actors, musicians are producing unfake art, not merely pretending to be this or that fictional character. They have careers not unlike sports, primes and peaks, measurable accomplishments, awards, Halls of Fame, a steady output of work albeit usually less regular and frequent than athletes, classic arguments about the Top 5 Guitarists Ever or the GOAT singer, etc. (EDIT: I didn't even mention that music sets were invariably rarer than sports sets, the majority of music sets, even the major-est ones like the Paninis, can be classed as scarce, compared to major sports sets.) Perhaps most importantly, it's not just sports nerds and comics geeks who care about music, everybody does. It's not just mostly dudes, but women, too. The elevation of music cards to a level approaching sports cards has been such an obvious development that should've already taken place it truly astonishes me that a debate about their place in the hobby world still even needs to take place. And whether or not music rookies are ever officially deemed a thing by some hobby authority, there will still always be the first cards, which is pretty much indistinguishable. It's mostly just a matter of having some organization with clout bless what everybody already treats as rookies with a "RC" or "XRC" whatever. I think that's inevitable. It would make no logical sense to deny music rookies that status. And if there are sports-centric people who insist on sabotaging the effort to gain them that status, well, guess what. That works both ways. The state of sports rookies today is, frankly, absolutely ****ing preposterous. If a vintage music rookie can't get recognized as a rookie card because it seems "arbitrary" or "silly", wait until the debate about how arbitrary and silly today's sports rookies are gets...ungenerous. Have there already been debates about that, too? Hahaha, again, I don't think so, that debate hasn't even really begun, either. And I don't really have much interest in spoiling the fun for those obsessed with contemporary sports rookies, but if gatekeepers want to spoil the fun for music card collectors, well...the sports absurdities then become fair game, IMO. And there are way, way more reasons to mock and dismiss today's sports rookies than vintage music rookies, believe me...if it comes to that.

[chilly55]

Originally Posted by wigglestrue

I started collecting around 1986-1987, I remember. Many rookies were identified as rookie cards, but probably not most, though?

This explains everything. Even in 1986-87, there were no rookie non-sport cards. Nobody paid a premium on the first appearance of Luke Skywalker, Indiana Jones, E.T, Starbuck, Gene Simmons, etc. Not even in the 90's or 2000's.

Baseball, as dd316 stated, is that baseball rookies were always collected/coveted. Even in 1975, nobody took their Nolan Ryan rc and put in the spokes of their bike. They didn't take their Pete Rose, Hank Aaron, Stand Musial, Steve Carlton etc. rookies card and put them in their spokes. I put my Don Money, Larry Christenson, Larry Haney, Team Checklist cards etc. in my spokes. You do realize there was a card market back in 1975, right? You do realize there were a lot of card shops back in 1975, right? The hobby might not have been where it is today, but it did exist and many, many kids I played with collected back in the late 60's & 70's.

Don't speak about something you know nothing about.

Again, if the market today wants to put a premium on first appearances of characters/people in non-sport sets, then it's a new phenomena that didn't exist just a few years ago. The hobby has changed and those of us that have been around a while probably won't change with it. I will move on to something else. It's hard to pay a premium on something you never did for 45 years.