Why National Treasures over Flawless?

[Nomad]

"What do Impeccables run these days? I think the last Flawless sold for around $25K but could be wrong."

"+1. Flawless being rookie game worn makes it a no-brainer. I've said it before but I'd take Flawless at $25K over NT at $65K all day every day."

I'm not a high end collector, think I paid $450 for the Nesmith /15 Flawless red RPA and $400 for the NT "C patch" /99.

The actual stated price discrepancy at the high end shocked me, as when I learned the PSA premium over Beckett slabs.

Why did national treasures pick up such a following? First I heard of it was that pretty decent movie with Nicolas Cage. Was it different in some way from what came before, like presenting a different patch aesthetic, design, or breaking experience? Or is it just seen as less fancy and thus more authentic than Flawless.

The other theory I can think of is that its hobby status is industry-driven. It's good for sales to have a higher reward quotient (ceiling) in a box of NT that is, after all, priced significantly less than Flawless and can (unlike its hand-packed counterpart) contain zero hits.

[eastbayak]

Oh baby, let me get some popcorn ready.

[jcardstore]

It’s nauseating to think you paid $400 for a nesmith NT Patch as an investment

[Nomad]

I don't think it could ever go lower. Just ask J Bieb, believers are believers. And the C Patch would be designated top 90 percent if they had a patch grading service. Ive seen another one on a /10 gold. To get it on a regular /99 is actually something.

Actually, a tangential question from the collection: National Treasures "C Patch" /99 or Origins booklet "B Patch" sticker auto 1/1?

They both not GU so for me Flawless out of the conversation. Sorry NT.

[hermanotarjeta]

NT came out three years earlier and has a specific recognizable exclusive official RPA in the set. Event worn however.

Flawless has no definitive THE card to get, too many variations, but recently the market has gravitated towards the more unique vertical RPA to be the one to get get. Game used is a plus.

[Nomad]

Ok, I thought vert always took it over horizontal, unless you preferred horizontal.

Is NT usually event worn? 20-21, peak pandemic, I distinctly remember it was not.

[eastbayak]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

NT came out three years earlier and has a specific recognizable exclusive official RPA in the set. Event worn however.

Flawless has no definitive THE card to get, too many variations, but recently the market has gravitated towards the more unique vertical RPA to be the one to get get. Game used is a plus.

Pretty sure Flawless has a “true” vertical RPA that people target.

[Nomad]

Yeah, definitely. There is not even a variation that I have seen. Let me check eBay...

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by eastbayak

Pretty sure Flawless has a “true” vertical RPA that people target.

It hasn’t always been like that, at least not when the product first came out.

[eastbayak]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

It hasn’t always been like that, at least not when the product first came out.

A lot of things haven’t always been like how they were when a product first came out.

It takes time for THE card of a given product to be decided upon by the collecting, investing and flipping populations.

[Nomad]

Ok, with 20-21 Flawless there is vert RPA stuff I had no idea about, cause they didn't include Nesmith. To wit: Star Swatch Signatures, Signature Prime Materials, and Flawless Patch Autograph. Most of the highly ranked rookies of the era, from Beef Stew to Vassell are in these.

Laundry Tags Autographs /2 includes crash but I did see one pass buy on the Bay a couple days ago and it is horizontal. So the true RPA is the Vertical Patch Auto, which maxes out at /25 (except Edwards /15... and the non-rookie Durant and Doncic /15)

The system doesn't make consistent sense, as Payton Pritchard has a Horizontal Patch Auto RPA and not a vert (to be fair they did that a lot, include AN in one insert set and PP in another).

It is confusing, and not all worthy rookies in the class have an example, but at the end of the day I think we need to go with Vertical Patch Auto as the true.

[Archangel1775]

1. National Treasures is a legacy brand that collectors are familiar with from other sports and it was THE premier set in 2009/10 that had Blake Griffin, Jeremy Lin and Stephen Curry. Each on fire at different points in the hobby.

2. They are numbered as part of the base set. Making them legit rookie cards for non-believers

3. There are typically 99 of them which allows for consistent circulation over time. A Flawless card is numbered to 25 or less. They could be out of circulation in a year.

4. Collect what you like.

[Nomad]

I'm actually working on a research paper "Quantifying the Linsanity Effect in East Asia and Stephen Curry's Hall of Fame NBA Career Arc in the Long Term Valuation Rise of National Treasures Rookie Patch Autographs, vis-vis Flawless RPA: A Multi-Variable Study"

[Nomad]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

1.
3. There are typically 99 of them which allows for consistent circulation over time. A Flawless card is numbered to 25 or less. They could be out of circulation in a year.

Confused. Isn't the cards that only show up at auction once every year or less the ones that go up or down the most? And have the greatest potential price, because there is no tradability of similar assets?

[Inferno]

Waste of time trying to make sense of it. Just enjoy the fact you can get a game-used RPA for less than a player worn one.

[2010GBPackers]

1. NT is a legacy brand

2. Flawless is the better product

[Asian62150]

Originally Posted by Inferno

Waste of time trying to make sense of it. Just enjoy the fact you can get a game-used RPA for less than a player worn one.

I think last year's NT RPAs weren't even player worn. They were of "the enclosed officially licensed material is not associated with any specific player, game, or event" variety.

[asujbl]

This thread is wild

[Nomad]

In what way?

I mean a Flawless - NT throwdown sounded pretty sedate and it turned out a 'collect what you like' singalong. If I had to guess, most modern upper end collectors heavily invested in both.

[Fastfalcon94]

Originally Posted by Nomad

The system doesn't make consistent sense, as Payton Pritchard has a Horizontal Patch Auto RPA and not a vert (to be fair they did that a lot, include AN in one insert set and PP in another).

It is confusing, and not all worthy rookies in the class have an example, but at the end of the day I think we need to go with Vertical Patch Auto as the true.

I have two of the Pritchard Flawless RPAs #'d to 25. I don't mind the horizontal. Some players you just have to take what you can get. In a perfect world there there would be a high end card of every player with real game used patch, nice on-card auto, vertical, serial numbered and a good photo that grades well. But that is not the case.

I think I've looked at every Pritchard card ever made and flawless is his best RPA.... game used patch, on card auto (although I wish he signed it "PaytonP" vs "PP#11"), and its rare. With flawless 2020-2021 these are your options:

- normal #'d to 25
- ruby red #'d to 15
- gold #'d to 10
- emerald green #'d to 5
- platinum 1 of 1
- logoman 1 of 1
- laundry tag 1 of 1

NT, Immaculate, Impeccable, and select RPAs all have the "not associated" patches and/or sticker autos. They also all start with higher serial numbers which means there are far more cards available. If you add up the Flawless options above, that is only 58 total cards available. I paid $220 for my PSA 9, and $300 for the raw one. I've seen his National Treasures RPA #'d to 99 sell for $600+ which seems crazy to me. I'd rather set that money aside in case another flawless pops up (or Prizm Gold RC which I'm currently looking for).

Some pics:

[Nomad]

Beautiful cards, nice time to own them.

Ant /15 or less vertical Flawless RPA is the real chase. That's gotta be six figures already.

[Antman5]

Originally Posted by Nomad

Beautiful cards, nice time to own them.

Ant /15 or less vertical Flawless RPA is the real chase. That's gotta be six figures already.

Gold sold for 25k in March. I’d say it’s about $50k by now.

/15 may be in the $20k- range uncirculated